I filed for Dv last February, almost a year ago now. It was final last April. My exH contacted me only a handful of times since then, one time being valid to tell me his grandfather had a stroke. After that, I had MANY months of peace and quiet and no interaction with my exH.

Then in late November, I went to his house to get my childhood Christmas ornaments, something I forgot to take with me when I left. He was kind and friendly when I was there, instead of trying to find fault with me and criticize me (like I was used to). He apologized for a few things, and also said that I actually was a very good wife, and that he had been wrong ever saying otherwise. I asked if he still had the same girlfriend, and he said she wasn't really a girlfriend. I told him the truth, I wasn't seeing anyone either. (I've tried some internet dating, with no luck, there's no one I feel attracted to or that I like that actually calls me back.) We hugged before I left (I only stayed 10 minutes). He asked if we would ever have a chance again, and I told him to write me a long letter telling me how and why it might be different, and that if he could do that, I might consider it.

THEN in early December, he starts with his phonecalls and messages again. (He couldn't be bothered to write any heartfelt letter.) He was leaving messages like, "I still love you, and you are the only woman I would ever want to have children with." This was very odd, because he had told me that he had decided after his father's death (during our separation) that he didn't ever want to have children. Well, apparently his baby nephew has changed his perspective here.

What I did in response to his calls, and a couple of emails was to NOT answer the phone, and only reply via email. Then I forwarded our email exchange to his girlfriend, figuring she deserved to know if she really was still seeing him. Well, she pointed out that she had broken up with him at about the time he started calling me. She also pointed out that he had also been calling her and leaving her messages saying if she'd take him back, he'd take her away at Christmas, that he'd been ring shopping, and something special might happen.

She also asked me a bunch of questions about the extent of my relationship with my exH, when exactly he and I had last been romantically involved, etc. I replied honestly to her. I asked her about dates and details of her relationship with him. In short, she was under the impression that they were in an "exclusive" relationship since October 2002 (5 months into our separation - I was STILL MARRIED TO HIM). She was shocked to hear that I still was seeing my H off and on clear through to Feb. 2004. She gave him one more chance I guess, but soon after broke up with him again (last Friday).

So my exH phones about 10 times on the weekend, leaving progressively upset messages, threatening "operation honesty" if I refuse to talk to him. In fact, I was away all weekend and never heard the messages until I got home after the weekend. I called him back, and we talked. We ended up in a four hour phone conversation, in which A LOT was discussed. He made many apologies. He made many confessions (yes, he slept with BOTH of his female friends that interfered in our marriage - although he didn't actually sleep with them until during our separation). He said he just can't get me out of his mind, that his recent GF just didn't measure up. He said he is finally going for counselling, to help him figure out why he can't get over me, and specifically to get help deciding which of us he should be with.

Oh, and his "operation honesty" that he was threatening.....he said his hot-tempered brother was going to call up the wives of the two men I cheated on my exH with and tell them about their H's infidelities if I wasn't willing to talk to my exH. Well, since I talked to him, he's backed down. I also pointed out how rediculous it would be to contact them now, and break up marriages that include innocent children at this point. He said it was the same as me breaking him and his GF up by emailing her (albeit emailing her the TRUTH). I failed to see a genuine parallel. She started seeing my HUSBAND when we were still married, when I was still seeing him, I told her about that fact, and she left him, very different from telling a married person about their spouses infidelity in my opinion.

Oddly enough, our 4 hour conversation was for the most part enjoyable. I still don't trust him very much at all, but the hatred and angry feelings between us have lessened greatly, which is good. I am very happy too that the #$&*% that interfered in our marriage is out on her ear. I have no remorse that my meddling helped to break them up either. She interfered in our marriage. My exH lied to her and I. Their relationship was doomed from the start.

My exH said what's there to stop him from interfering in any new relationship I start? I said the fact that I would be completely open and honest with any new man in my life, so that anything my exH would have to say to him would have no effect anyway.

My family and friends would kick my butt for giving him 4 hours of my time on the phone. They would really give me a piece of their minds if I told them that I am having thoughts of "what if?" we tried getting back together - it would be so much easier than finding someone new. I would then again be with the only man I've ever loved, the one I shared more than 12 years of memories with. If he really does go for counselling, and would be willing to take me to a session with him at some point, I think I may be open to trying to spend time with him again.

Well, old-timers who remember me and new folks too, please let me know what your take is on all of this drama.

Jen

<small>[ February 03, 2005, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Wow, (((Jen))), there’s a lot of information there to digest. I guess if I were in your shoes, besides them hurting my feet, at this point I would neither discount not pursue a more than “friendship” relationship with him. I would encourage him to get into counseling, as he has stated he was going to do. And maybe after 6-9 months of him being “alone” and in counseling, then maybe talks could progress to some shared sessions with the possibility of pursuing a “dating” relationship after that. I’m not real familiar with y’alls history but no matter what it is, I do believe that your common “enemy” right now is time.

I would use this time to work on you, any character defects that you can find, and any self-esteem issues you may have. Get yourself to the most “positive” place possible and then re-look at the situation for what it’s worth and see if it looks as appealing. Through some of his recent actions (i.e. Operation Honesty) I would move at a snails pace to ensure his emotional well being before investing any time.

Jen,

There are so many similarities between your situation and mine.....my M has ended much as yours has. The only difference is that your DV is final, and mine requires the drawing and signing of papers. JL posted a great response to me on my thread, and I will post it here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> LIT,

Everyone fears change except the desperate. You are not desparate so you fear the change. But, the reality is that you two are already divorced and given that you two don't have children there is NO compelling reason to stay and work through both of your issues. That is what you are telling me right?

His issues are big and they would need to be addressed and solved before a good marriage could occur. He has no really strong reasons to do this...no children. So he is not.

I think you will find that when and if you do see him after the divorce both of you will see each other in a different light. It is hard to lose a long term friend and that is what is happening to the both of you. The lover part is gone, but the friend part is still there.

You will do it when you are ready, but it won't be easy so don't wait for that. Frankly if it were easy then you and he would have known you made a huge mistake. Your marriage was not a mistake.

Some things to think about.

God Bless,

JL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMVHO, your H (like mine) has not taken any real steps to work through his issues. Rather, some of the bitterness and anger have diminished, but he is still not ready for a healthy relationship. He is clearly still not a healthy person. I have no doubt that in his own way he loves you. And you have faith in him that he can be the person you would like to love. He probably can. But so far he hasn't wanted to. That is clear by his inability to go to IC on his own, and even recently by his lack of providing you with the letter.

It really is difficult giving up the friendship. But as my H and I discussed....the idea of getting back together is more frightening than staying apart. And that 'gut feeling' deserves some attention.

The conversations with him bring you emotionally closer. And perhaps remind you of better times in your R or M when you were able to confide in each other, and share your feelings. That kind of intimacy is what should be in a M. But as I learned this weekend from speaking with my H, it is easy for those angry emotions to come back to the surface. And in my H's case, part of what allowed them to diminish is my NOT being around. He associates those feelings and memories with me.

Again, JMVHO from my experience.....sometimes I swear our H's must be brothers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 03, 2005, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: L.I.T ]</small>

Bluntly? He's horney and wants to get in your pants and knows that if he schmoozes you enough he might just get his wish.

Good advice from the oldies -- hopefully he will get counselling and be on his own to figure out what exactly is going on in his mind and what he wants out of life. If you are entertaining a reconciliation, I would strongly recommend couples counselling (NO SEX) until you both know what is best for the both of you.

Jen,

I just counseled with SH this a.m. and went over some of this same subject matter a bit.

I am in the last stage of the D process myself. I had been in plan B and came out of it for a few weeks to help my W through a severe depression she was in. I have since gone dark again.

I thought that since I had closed the door on us that that was it for me. After spending some time with her I realized that I could choose to open that door again and give it a chance if she would be willing to do ALL that I needed to make me feel safe trying. She's not at that point so it doesn't matter, but it's possible. One day I will decide to try a R with someone else and then I won't look back.

Until that time comes there is nothing wrong with leaving the possibility open. That's as long as you never settle for anything less than what you know in your heart you would need from your XS.

You have to be VERY careful going down that road. Because you have gone so long without your own EN being met it would be easy to get in too deep without realizing it was happening. I felt that starting to happen to me and made a quick exit! If they want it enough, they will do WHATEVER it takes to get you to open that door again. Anything less shows that they are not worthy or mature enough to make it work.

Starman,
Whatever happened for better or for worse? I don't want to seem combative, but it seems you departed your relationship at your convenience when things didn't go smoothly. And then place a carrot out there to come back if she meets ALL of your needs...If she is depressed, then she probably needs you the most during that time. But then again, I don't know the full situation.

I am sorry, but it seems as though it is a control issue on when to turn it on or off.

I may have misread your message and if I did I apologize. But I find it interesting to see the relationship breakups from the male perspective. I am just trying to figure out my H psyche, I guess...My H responds to me at his leisure only. And I am just left holding the bag waiting for him to come around. (Just a little venting there...)

Nomoregames

My opinion...

He is in withdrawl from the OW and looking to rebound back with you. Let him sort his own life out and then decide if you even want to be near him.

You each have to becomes individuals again before you can even think again about a life together.

At that stage maybe you'll decide its not worth the risk, or maybe you'll want to give it another try. But I don't think you are at that stage yet?

Miker

PS. What do I know, my life's a big mess <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jen,

I don't have a lot of time, but I was going to pull out each of his responses to you and ask you to read them, in order. You will see a man that lies, cheats, and manipulates. You will see a man that is still trying to control you enough to get you to bed.

I have no clue why you still are affected by him, but I can tell you that his threats show very clearly he IS NOT A MAN to even consider a relationship. You were lucky, you got out of that marriage before you had children.

Now have some patience and realize that there are many men who will be attracted to you, and a few are worth you time. So take your time and don't consider this guy again until something really really major happens to change his view of the world.

So how did I do? I hope you got the message. He is not worth your time. YOU WILL DO MUCH BETTER.

God Bless,

JL

Jen, As one who was married to a man who cheated, lied, and manipulated, but was also the only man I ever really loved, I empathize with your dilemma. I'd talk to a counselor or coach to establish some really good boundaries to allow you to interact with him safely. He's hurt you before, seeming interested and then only wanting sex. Don't get hurt by this tactic again. The "no's" seem to have it so far. I agree that you should take it very slowly.

Jen. I have been following your story for years now. Why ? My story is exactly the same as your husband's including the death of my father etc...
The only thing i can say to you is : go for it girl,your husband really loves you,those other girls meant nothing to him just sex and something to keep him busy. Remember, you cut his balls off a couple of years a go, but they slowly grew back on (sorry for the language but as a man i can tell you how it feels). I also had girls to boost my ego, did i love them - no,did i keep on loving my xw-yes.would i love to be with her now -yes. I know he is sorry for what he did and what happened, just tell him you still want him back,you still want your M and a better one. Tell him what you expect from him, let himù now whar he can expect from you.Don't listen to all those other posters here, they're not in the same situation as your H . I was and still am

mvdr,
You mentioned that the sex meant nothing to Jen's exH with OW, but why is it that men feel they have to go elsewhere to begin with? I know every man is different with different feelings and emotions, but could Jen's exH and yourself felt inadequate and emotionally needy due to the death's of your father's? Please don't take my questions as offensive, but I am just trying to understand...

According to www.dictionary.com: Ego is:
1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit.
2. Appropriate pride in oneself; self-esteem.

Ego can be positive thing to have if you are working towards a goal or ambition, but not trying to overpower others. But ego can be a negative thing when see yourself as the only one of concern at others expense. My H reacts without regard for others in order to pursue his self gratification. When a man sees OW, is it purely that selfish act that he is trying to fulfill?

My final question is, what makes a man wake up one day and say "Hey I am a fool to let go of my W." and try to get back to the M?

I know these are loaded questions, but I am just curious.

Thanks,
Nomoregames

It has totally nothing to do with the loss of our father's.

iN CASE OF jENS HUSBAND IT HAS ALL TO DO WITH EGO; wHEN YOUR w STRAYS AND SLEEPS WITH ANOTHER MAN THAT's cutting her husband balls off literally. She might as well have beaten him close to death every day for a couple years-if you want to humiliate and destroiy your H well thats the way to do it. Why did he became angry and agressive with her,well. She beat him under the ground ,aggression and rage is a way to get up again and show his will power to live and be a man.
And yes having sex with other women is a way to convince himself he's still a man.
Why do men stray in the first place
1. lust; because their W's don't give them enough sex-that's the ultimate way a man connects with his W. Women connect with men preferably in other ways-talking,affection,...

Remember his needs her needs guys???

So if her H says i want to have sex with J that's a way to reconnect with her,reconciliate and his way to communicate his feelings because believe me even for a man sex is best with a girl you LOVE

2.men can fall in love too and then have sex with the one hey fell in love with

My final question is, what makes a man wake up one day and say "Hey I am a fool to let go of my W." and try to get back to the M?

Simple answer in case of Jen's story:His balls are back ,hence the anger subsided and her H is back the man he was before her A, or close to it anyway

Other answers when men stray without their W's having an A: see 1 in previous post

Well thanks all for your feedback. The general trend here is "Be careful Jen, he likely only wants to get into your pants," and that's my primary fear too. I am very aware of the fact that he got dumped last Friday and now he wants to talk to me. No matter how many nice things he says, apologies he makes, or sincere heartfelt remarks he repeats, he just got dumped, and is a man who isn't good at being alone.

Although it is nice for him to finally, genuinely admit that it was wrong for him to bring his stupid female friends into our marriage, and that he can totally see how giving them so much of his emotional self hurt me, and may well have encouraged me to have affairs.

Last night I was out until about 10pm, and when I got home at that time, my phone showed he'd called 3 times already. Then he proceeded to phone 3 more times after I got home (I didn't answer). He is WIERD, who in their right mind phones someone more than once? You call, find out they're not home, you leave a message, end of story. At least he only left one, non-threatening message saying it was him, and I could call him back to chat if I wanted to.

I don't have any desire whatsoever to see him. I would like for him to go for counselling and spend some significant time alone to figure himself out before I'd ever even re-enter into a friendship that involved face-to-face meetings.

Honestly, I'd much prefer to find a different, new man to be with for the rest of this lifetime. However, as L.I.T. said, "The conversations with him bring you emotionally closer. And perhaps remind you of better times in your R or M when you were able to confide in each other, and share your feelings." It's actually enjoyable to talk with him, oddly enough.

I will be carefuly if I do continue to talk with him. Although I don't intend to talk to him very often at this point. The warning bells in the back of my mind are ringing a bit too loudly.

Jen

You ex husband seems to be a very confused man at best, and a very manipulative man at worst.

If you decide to 'date' him, I must add you to the list of confused people. Sorry, but really, why would any woman want a man like that?

You are lucky you are rid of him and that you don't have children to bind you together for the next years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also had girls to boost my ego, did i love them - no,did i keep on loving my xw-yes.would i love to be with her now -yes. I know he is sorry for what he did and what happened, just tell him you still want him back,you still want your M and a better one. Tell him what you expect from him, let himù now whar he can expect from you.Don't listen to all those other posters here, they're not in the same situation as your H . I was and still am </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-- wrote mvdr

Well, since you're the only one on "that" side of the replies.....I thought maybe I'd ask you some further questions.

Why did it take him 2 1/2 years, and getting dumped by both of the bimbos to decide to get in touch with me again? Why should I be excited about being contacted by a man who got dumped LAST WEEK? A man who already has used manipulation AGAIN to get me to write a final email to the girlfriend he had for the past 2 years telling her that I would not ever contact her again? Why should I be in contact with a man that ALL of my friends and family tell me to stay the heck away from?

The only reasons I can even begin to imagine having anything to do with him again are:
a) we have 12+ years of shared, fairly happy memories
b) I used to love him and trust him, so maybe I'd feel the same way again someday
c) it would be nice to be married to someone again and have a dual income, then I'd have more money to live
d) I've been single for a while, had no sex in a year, so I'm lonely enough to perhaps be dumb enough to get involved with someone who's at least familiar

Hardly a strong list of reasons to get back together with him.

Oh, and get this, he was right back at trying to tell me that I, yes "I" was the one who controlled everything in our marriage.

There's too much blame-laying in our history, and it sure wouldn't go away any time soon.

I was reading the "support group for recently separated" women thread, and although there was never any real physical abuse (I got shoved once for not having sympathy for him when he was upset many, many years ago), so much of the mental abuse and manipulation sounds familiar. I sincerely doubt the man would ever change.

So let me know your thoughts mvdr, I am curious what you'd have to say.

Jen

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,

I have followed your situation because 1) we are the same age, 2) our divorces were becoming final around the same time, and 3) I shared many of your same feelings post divorce (i.e. loneliness, regret, hopelessness, etc.)

My advise to you:
1) Quit talking to XH - there is absolutely no reason for you to be in contact with him anymore, period. Explain to him that you are divorced and it is best for you to move on with your lives. Two bad signs: he starts calling when OW breaks up with him and he wouldn't write the letter that you asked of him. He definitely needs help so hopefully it is true that he is getting counseling but it really should no longer be your concern.

2) Get involved in the local church. There are many positive people you will meet there and most importantly, God can start working on his plan for you.

3) You should date when:
-you are independent and have completely moved on from XH, until this happens it will be impossible for you to create a new and healthy relationship with someone else
-are comfortable with yourself as a single person (i.e. you don't need to be in a relationship to be happy)
-you have clarity about what it is you want and will require in a new relationship.

Good luck to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>I sincerely doubt the man would ever change.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You answer your own question.

I think this organization is closer to you ... http://www.womanabuseprevention.com/html/emotional_abuse.html

-rh-

Jen ,
to answer your question simply; why has he been behaving like that for the last 2.5 years??:
POST TRAUMATIC STRESS. I can tell you the timeframe is about the same for me too and only for the last six months or so have i been able to feel close to how i felt before i was betrayed.
What he was searching for in those girls is YOU or at least the PURITY of a relation like he used to have with you. Unfortunatly he is not going to find YOU in other girls and i'm sure he has only loved you ;no other girl will ever compare.
Why do you want to be with him: well see your point a and b
Does that mean you will go straight to were you left off;no Just tell him you also hope to be with him again but that trust has to be rebuilt slowly and that it will take some time and that you both will have to let go off the past.blaming eachother will not be constructive and won't change the past;only new memories will wipe away the black spots and that will take some time also
I'm sure there's was a lot of hurt between you 2 but that has deminished a lot already in the last 2.5 years Why not wipe a way the last pains. Give eachother 6 months to a year to rebuild a dating relationship. Go out together have fun,...
I'm sure he is a sorry as you are as to what happened between the both of you
Just my opinion

Isn't this a marriage builders site anyway????

Just an idea...
Why not let him read this topic and my replies.See what he has to say ok