As unpalatable as the thought is, there is a reason you had to go through that last session, and a reason you feel the way you do.
It's what you do with those feelings that defines your future.

I, for one, can't see you cowering through life, bulldozing yes, but cowering, NO.

Sorry to be jumping in this tread so late. But a general question came up as I was reading this post. What is the real reason for a separation? I know a lot of people who were separated and just ended up divorce. I can understand if there is sustance abuse involved and the abusing spouse agees to get help while separated. But other than that? I just don't get it!

Can anyone help me here?

Ali

sorry, don't know why this posted twice

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

Ali, do you mean why do people get separated instead of going straight to divorce? Or do you mean what are the reasons behind a separation?

I can't speak for others, but there is Situation X, and filling my home with his inventory, financial reasons some tied to Situation X, lack of meeting needs, constant love busting.

So, basically, when I was ready to kill him or myself, I separated. Does that make sense? I did separation before divorce because I had some hopes that he would be willing to change. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

GG

I give you a lot of credit!

You have opened yourself up to something that you have spent a lot of time trying to get over because of your morals and dedication.

Having to go through it again is a terrible thing but i believe that you have the hopes and faith that things can be as they are meant to be.

I hope that B sees this and gets his head out of his a$$ long enough to see what he has.

You are an incredible person and I for one wouldn't take the chance of screwing things up a second time given the opertunity to make things right as you are.

As others have said, stand up straight and bulldoze your way through this. In the end you are going to feel good about yourself and your efforts regardless of the outcome.

Best wishes to you!!

WIWH

My unasked for advice?

Turn.Around.

Run.Away.

GG,

I have a hard time even reading this post....he sounds so much like my ex....and to this day it is hard not to be sucked in....on not even important things...much less the big ones.

I went through counseling with him one time...and it was a miserable experience. I had just found out I was pregnant with our third child, and he was in a full blown affair. He lied, he twisted the truth, he made me feel so unsure of myself...at times I thought I was going insane. In fact my health was severely affected and my daughter has neurological difficulties that I attribute to those two years of pure hell. Now I know it was just a game...and the game had to be played out his way to make him look good. Fast Forward to 2001, he was in a full fledged affair with his current flight attendant bimbo/wife.....he tried to manipulate me again into attending counseling sessions by saying "I'll keep my end of the bargain (I assume he meant our marriage) and attend counseling sessions. But don't assume an outcome from this until the counselor tells us what to do based on his hearing both sides of the story." I knew then and there that there was no way I was going to put myself in another position so that he could revise history, attack me, hurt my self-esteem just to justify his actions. I told him no way. I told him for me to go to counseling, he would first have to leave his mistress, attend individual counseling sessions with the hopes of discovering why the same behaviors kept happening time after time, and then we could work towards counseling together. I told him I valued myself and my kids too much to put us through that again without those conditions being met. He of course would not do that...because "He didn't have the problem, and he didn't need help."

You know, last week I posted and was having a down weekend---this week, I miss our family---but I have been reading more here lately----and these posts bring back so many gut wrenching memories that I have lived through...and I would never want to do any of that again. Life is too short.

I think a part of me would always like to rewrite history myself in that he would return my love, admiration, devotion, concern for my feelings......but I don't think he could ever do that in reality.

Well...it is really late.....and I am up missing the dream of my old life I wanted again and it won't ever be.....

You need to be careful. Is he capable of loving you the way you need to be loved? Are you setting yourself up for more hurt.

I forgave my husband for that affair in 1991. We settled back into a comfortable life---trying to build over the scars of those two years. We moved, started anew building trust.....got extremely busy starting up this new plane and in 1993---his girlfriend shows up here in the middle of nowhere in Missouri--knows that we have had a son--so they were corresponding that whole time ...and writes him a letter asking if she could just see him for awhile...and it was on the first day that the initial pilots started training. What a fun day that was....we all had to go out there and be happy and have pictures with our husbands and be excited starting this new program. And the woman that almost destroyed our marriage that time was there. I left at 4 to get the kids---he stayed somewhere until 11 that night....but I was the crazy one...Gives me shivers.

The sad part is that he could always get me to believe in him again. This time is different...because he is not getting his way. He divorced me. He has married his bimbo...but he is still revising history trying to make everyone think he is still the wonderful father, stealthy Bomber person. I don't think it is happening...people here know what he is and what he has done to me and his children. It is sad.

Someone who is not going to be honest, is not going to take responsibility for their own behavior, someone who does not care about your (or my)well being.....that is not a relationship to get back into IMHO. There were red flags there before I married him...I was just too in love to listen to my gut feelings. I hope I am older and wiser now....well, I am definitely older now anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> will have to see how the wise part turns out.

I better get to bed...sorry for the rambling. Take care Pat

GG,

Maybe you should read the Verbally Abusive Spouse. It does not 100% fit what B does but it is very close. The book points out that the abusive spouse will always try and keep the person they are trying to power over off balance and think they are insane. The main reason for this is that as long as the person is off balance the abuser has the power over that person.

B has never been happy that you have taken back your power of your life. I see two years on him still trying to manipulate you. It is not just situation X nor the STD but if I remember correctly there was a history of looking up escort services over the internet when he would go out of town for business and the like.

I also thought B was dating someone. Did they break up and now he is trying to "win" you back? In Dr. Phil speak I really think you won the divorce. You have a right to be safe in this marriage and you never have.

I know this post is disjointed but maybe make a timeline of your marriage. Leave nothing out. My guess is you will find that the bad times over shadow the goods. I know when I did the timeline with my ex I was shocked how awful it really was.

I believe 100% in MB but MB only really works with a marraiage where both people are sane, healthy individuals. I am not convienced that B is. I, on the other hand, believe that you are. Please stop allowing B to make you question yourself again.

Next time he says you are lying just say oh really? Why would I when you gave me an STD...or something else that he is trying to blame you on. Make him accountable for his actions.

Thank you all for your insights. I really appreciate it. Especially since most of you have been with me for a long time.

Here's my first plan for next week.
Here's what I've decided. I'm going to go to one more MC session. I'm going to lay it out there that I was so intensely upset by the session that I started hyperventilating. I am also going to ask B where he stands on Situation X. I want a progress report. After that, I'm not going to participate in the session. I sit there and listen, but I'm not going to make myself available this next session. I'm going to be an observer.

After I observe this session and get information on Situation X, I'll decide what to do about next week.

Sounds like you have a good plan. I, too, relate to your situation. Despite almost three years of NC, I still find myself figuratively looking over my shoulder when I talk about anything that involved WH and I instantly question whether he'd agree with my version. It's only at a distance that I can fully appreciate the extent of his emotional control over me (there, case in point! I can hear him saying that I was the controlling one, and I instantly question myself!)

What I've realized is it doesn't really matter if he really believed his version of reality (or was consciously lying), especially the part of it that implies that I'm lying, being manipulative, or "crazy". For me, accepting my "version" and moving forward based on that version, has a healthy outcome for me. If it was based on lies (which I know it's not since I'm not lying) or misapprehension of reality, I don't think this would be the case. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

What I relate to most is the way you react by questioning yourself. I see other people being mislead by their own self-interested points of view and realize that if others do it, so do I. So when someone disagrees with me, I try to look objectively at what I believe and try to make sure it really isn't based only on selfish motives or misinformation. I don't think that's a bad trait EXCEPT when dealing with someone who for whatever reason (control issues, trying to hide the truth, etc.) is willing to actively take advantage of this trait.

I don't know if my WH was doing this to me, or if your H is doing it to you. All I can do is look at the results. I think the feeling of going insane is a really important indicator. Do other people affect you this way? Do people often disagree with your view of reality? Is this a common reaction to other people disagreeing with you? If you're like me, the answer is NO. I know that other people don't have the same effect on us as our H's, but it's still something to think about.

I know I'd be doing the same thing you are, trying to save my M if given the opportunity. My suggestion is to be as honest and straightforward as you can. Don't worry so much about his feelings. Confront, speak up, take care of yourself. What've you got to lose? You've been doing okay without him. You don't need him so reconciliation should be based on wanting him because he is willing to take responsibility for his behavior, follow POJA, meet needs, etc.

There are some amazing insights in this thread, just wonderful! The whole rewriting of history and existing in another reality stuff has really hit home with me.

I have disagreed with Fogman on even just the little stuff like whether I was driving too slow or fast or when I should put on my turn signal. Boy am I glad those days are over! He is gone gone gone!

Fogman is playing the victim in a game he has created for himself. I am ready for some normalcy now, thank you very much! I have always felt like I was talking to a brick wall.

Hi GG. It's just been over the last couple of weeks that I have truly felt like I wouldn't want H back, even for the sake of our family. I see these repeated behaviors that are something I dealt with during the marriage because he was my H & I'd accepted them as part of his personality. Mostly passive/aggressive stuff.

What really made me trun this corner was when my IC made a comment about reconciliation. He asked me how much of a beating I was going to continue to give myself.

I've always said I would take H back under certain circumstances. He would have to go to ICing, we would have to go to & both participate in competent marriage counceling, he would need to really understand his role in our marriage & take responsibility for it. Could that happen? Yea, maybe, unlikely if I judge by his current behavior.

More & more I simply see him for the man he is & not the man I've wanted him to be or thought he was. It's a huge dissapointment & I've questioned how I could have not understood him better for so many years. I asked my IC that question last week he told me I was idealistic & thought H would come to understand himself better & want to change his behavior. That hasn't happened yet & my feelings of love & respect for H are gone.

For the sake of my family would I reconcile if H asked? I don't know. If he walked in the door & asked me right now my heart would sink & I would feel sick at the prospect. His behavior has been so selfish & I don't know that he is capable of the kind of changes he would need to make for us to really have a loving, intimate relationship.

Have you asked yourself some of these same questions?

I've been saying for months that I would reconcile for the sake of my boys, but I really don't think that's true any more.

Guilt, the belief that divorce is avoidable, & believing that an intact family is the best for my boys has kept me hoping H would do the right thing. Is he capable? Is your H?

edited out

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Greengables ]</small>

Ok, done. I'll be out most of tonight but will try to check later, definately in the morning.