Last April, I began an affair with a coworker that quickly erupted in the classic pattern -- intense passion, fault-finding at home, me abruptly moving out. Somehow through it all, for three months my wife of twelve years endured, waiting for me to return, knowing I was making a mistake, and believing that God would restore our marriage.

In July, the OW was pregnant. Unbeknownst to me, she miscarried soon after finding out and, knowing how much I missed my children and fearing I'd return to my wife, never told me. In August, after a disastrous vacation with the OW, I realized I couldn't trust her and, suffering with the loss of my children and longing for the restoration of my marriage with this seemingly transformed wife of mine, I returned home. I believed we could work from fresh ground, each of us willing to reach out and work on ourselves for one another.

I was never in my life more firmly resolved to accomplish anything as I was this marriage. I believed God had played a miraculous role in opening the doors for me to return, the prodigal husband, repentant and wiser. We engaged in marriage counseling with a wonderful pastor who helped us dredge up issues from years before. I also engaged actively in personal counseling to try to "unpack" everything I'd experienced, and was finding answers in my own parents' divorce, my strained relationship with my distant, adulterous, alcoholic father, and a brief episode of sexual abuse when I was eight. I began to see the powerful role sexuality played in my life, almost never in a healthy way, unfortunately; through sex, I found something of the validation I so craved throughout my life.

Through this process, and in the interest of being an open book to my wife, I confessed that, while stationed overseas during our engagement I'd had a brief affair with a friend's wife, as well as visited a brothel once. Further, after my discharge from the military, my pseudo-latent alcoholism (so I believed) led me to brief sexual encounters with three woman. This was terribly hard for my wife to hear, of course -- a betrayal that reached so far back was very painful -- but I believed that for us to move forward I needed to be "radically honest" and prove to her I had nothing to hide. With the help of my boss, we had established some boundaries at work regarding the OW while I looked for another job, and it seemed to be going at least OK. For a few weeks last fall, I thought I'd finally discovered what marriage was supposed to be, and I was never happier.

By October, the "honeymoon" was over and things were getting very difficult. The promising new job I'd lined up fell through; with no other prospects on the horizon and mountains of credit card debt, my wife, though of course despising the work setting, was reluctant to say "just quit" though I had offered when I returned home. The work environment with the OW was increasingly untenable; in fact, I found out the boss was not so supportive of the "rules" he'd helped me draft, and the OW was undermining me to him behind my back.

At home, our communication was breaking down. The pain of the past summer and my recent confessions was building up in my wife, and I found myself unable to respond or express my own feelings without getting defensive. Our pastor who had helped us so much had been suddenly fired in a reorganization at church, so we lost a key element to our healing process. We had very much retreated to our own corners to try and bandage our wounds alone.

Believing I had to make the best of a bad work environment, I made the critical error of deciding the rules were a barrier to improving the situation. Without consulting my wife, I decided to relax them a little, to try and be the truly platonic friends with the OW we'd been before the affair. Needless to say, within days the affair re-erupted, and the OW is now pregnant again, and today is in her twelfth week.

I don't understand if it's sexual addiction, as some of my friends have said, or impulse problems, or some un-textbook combination of the above. All I know is I've struggled with those feelings in the past year, trying to understand the impulses, observing that I felt like my mind was "catching up" to my actions, trying to explain the unjustifiable decisions I made. So often it felt like I was observing myself do things I knew were wrong, that violated my beliefs and desires and resolve, yet there I went. I say that not to minimize my responsibility -- it's simply how it felt.

I finally admitted to my wife before Christmas that the affair had restarted and the OW was pregnant. The pain, the betrayal, the shattered trust she'd offered so freely, was overwhelming. Having struggled with depression many times and increasingly in the past two years, I reached a new low and almost attempted suicide. I told my wife (was it just a cry for help and attention? Perhaps.) and we decided to let the holidays pass before making any decisions.

By January things continued to deteriorate. My wife insisted that I cut all contact with the other woman. I felt too numb to do so, to quit my job and abandon this baby when I was barely able to start processing what happened. I felt I needed time and therapy. Time was not on our side, though, and the tension between my wife and I grew to the point that we feared we wouldn't be able to shelter our 10 and 5 year old daughters anymore from outbursts. I moved in with the OW for three days, and returned home for one last weekend, during which we intended to tell the girls I was leaving again.

I was despondant, hopeless, depressed. Before my wife was supposed to get home, I went home to get my shotgun, drive around for a while and just sort of think about suicide. But she'd arrived home early, stopped me, and by the next day had "encouraged" me to go to the local psychiatric hospital for safety and help. I stayed for the weekend, and had epiphanies about the value of time away from both women while I tried to deconstruct what motivates this foolish behavior and someday correct it. My sister graciously offered to let me stay in their spare room for as long as I needed. The children still didn't really know what was going on.

I wanted time, time to really work on myself intensively, to understand why I am so emotionally needy and low on self-esteem, to try to develop new ways of coping with these emotions rather than the destructive ones I'd chosen so often. I was tired of breaking promises, of regretting things, of making commitments and not following through. I realized that the "choice" between my wife and the OW was not a real choice -- to really choose, I'd also have to able to choose to be alone, paying child support to two women.

I told both my wife and the OW that I was not prepared to make any decisions about those relationships, that they were both on hold, and that I was making no promises. Further, I told them that in the meantime they should do whatever it was they felt was necessary -- divorce, abortion, whatever they thought. I didn't want to make and break any more promises. I was already feeling so shamed and guilty for the mistakes I'd made, I didn't want to make any more. I was hopeful, thanks to my therapist's help, that someday not too far away I'd find success and master these emotions of anger, depression, and loneliness.

I still spent time talking with my wife, and found it painful, as it stirred up so many "just fix it" feelings that I wasn't sure I could follow through on yet. I still spent time with the OW, who is separated from her husband and struggling with sickness so far in the pregnancy (and with three children under five at home). For my wife, this was unbearable. My unwillingness or unreadiness to cut off contact with the OW meant only one thing -- continue on the road to divorce. The mistrust, the pain, the little realizations of lies and betrayals over the past two months accumulated for my wife, and though I wanted desperately to swoop in as the hero on the white horse and say all the right things, my experience from last fall made me wary. I needed to master new skills in controlling my emotions before I could recommit myself appropriately. Deep inside me, my heart knows that when I am ready to approach a relationship without the crutches of spending and sexual neediness, it is my wife I will desire. All my values draw me to reconciliation, for the sake of my faith and my children. I'm just not ready to trust myself yet to do it right.

Nonetheless this week, enough was enough. After enduring so much throughout our marraige, my wife files for divorce and, contrary to seeking a mediator as we'd discussed, she engaged an attorney for all negotiations and drastically altered all the terms of custody, visitation, and division of assets and bills we'd discussed before. I had prepared myself for divorce proceedings to begin, knowing we had six months to let events unfold before it would be final, but I was stunned by what I perceived as the hostility of the act -- not in her tone, but in bringing in lawyers, racking up expenses to split up what amounts to negative net worth. Though I can understand her total lack of trust in me, it seemed foolish and wasteful and divisive to my relationship with the children.

Being only a few weeks into my "journey" alone, I feel barely equipped to cope with what's already happened. I feel isolated, scared, hopeless, and terribly depressed tonight. Hence, I am awake at 5:30 AM writing on this board my friend so raves about.

I don't know where to turn. I so want this to go well for the children and for us. Though I of course understand with my head why she did this, I had hoped in the deepest part of me that somehow she could have found the strength to wait just a little while more, to let me cut the ties with the OW and our child if necessary in a way I could live with six months and then six years from now. I feel so crushed by the shame and the guilt of what I've done, yet I'm trying to pry my way out from under it to turn it to good, to effect change in my life from this point on, whomever I'm with. I'm terrified of a legal fight that will hurt everyone irreparably. I'm afraid of the distance and alienation from my children, whom I treasure and toward whom my wife has always affirmed that I've been an excellent and attentive and caring father.

I'm simply feeling devastated and alone and terrified, and I could use any words of encouragement or advice anyone can offer who's walked a similar path.

Wow. I'm relatively new, so I won't offer much. But I certainly understand where your wife is coming from. You told her to make all decisions she felt she needed to. So she did. You have another child on the way -- with you checking out of the decision making process, she needed to file to protect herself and the kids. While there may be negative net worth, child support is of the utmost importance for her right now, and she needs to file first in that area before OW. She's got to be the rock for the kids now, since you are gone. She shoulders all the responsibility while you figure yourself out.

Which you should do. Counseling. Read more on this sight. Also, General Questions II is more active forum, put your post there, too for more feedback.

Lost,

Some people here may have some very emotional reactions to your post. The resurgence of your A with OW is a fear that resonates deep within many Betrayed Spouses here.

Divorce is not easy. And often, it is a consequence of our own actions. I understand the 'hope' that you have about your W being able to forgive you. I used to 'hope' the same thing from my H. But I realize that I took the first step in ruining my M - by turning outside the M for ENs and SF. And although there were many issues in the M and myself before that, my A snoballed our M into something that is irrecoverable. I take responsibility for my own actions.....yet, there are still things my H does not take responsibility for.

My H does not yet fully comprehend this. He doesn't understand that unless he takes certain actions to show ownership of his contributions to the demise of the M, that I cannot stay in this M. He can 'know' his faults all he wants....but unless he takes actions to resolve them, this M must end. That is what you did not seem comprehend. You restarted the A with OW....and you disrespected your W's request to give up OW. Her decision to file probably does not have anything to do with whether she loves you or not....but rather, her trying to protect herself. You have shown her through your actions that she is not worth much to you. And why in the world would you keep trying to pet a dog who has bitten you multiple times?

So here's the deal.....oddly enough, she's probably doing you a favor. I respect the fact that you have gone to counseling, and really been trying to deal with the problems that you have internally, and were present in your M. But there is still some 'justification' talk in your post...you have not still fully owned your actions. And unless you have cut off contact with OW, you are still not completely repentant for your A.

In all honesty, what would be best for you is to cut off contact with both your W and your OW....and to engage in some intense IC to resolve your own issues. It appears as though you have a sort of impulse control issue - I can't say whether or not it is sexual addiction....but you definitely have an impulse to turn to outside elements when it comes to depression. Very much like an addictive personality. And you will have to learn how to control those impulses in order to heal.

Caution with the OW - you may be tempted to turn to her during this time. But your R with her will also eventually reach this point. You must address YOU before you will be able to enter into a healthy relationship.

This is really a difficult post to respond to. Part of you really does want to better yourself, I think. But I also believe that part of you wants the 'easier' way of doing it - justification, support, and encouragement.

You remind me very much of a person who was in my counseling group....someone who in the depths of his heart, wanted to do the right thing.....but just had incredible troubles finding his happiness from within - and kept turning to women outside his M for solace. Kept giving in to the 'easy' fix.

Only you can save yourself, lost. I think you know that deep down. Only you can find yourself. And at this point, if you are truly to heal, it is best if neither OW or STBXW do it for you. You are going to have to follow through and do it by yourself, for yourself.

So, out of curiosity, what are your plans? Are you planning to keep in contact with OW?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had prepared myself for divorce proceedings to begin, knowing we had six months to let events unfold before it would be final, but I was stunned by what I perceived as the hostility of the act -- not in her tone, but in bringing in lawyers, racking up expenses to split up what amounts to negative net worth. Though I can understand her total lack of trust in me, it seemed foolish and wasteful and divisive to my relationship with the children.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excuse me while I point out that the HOSTILE act has been committed by YOU. You have an OW...who is now expecting YOUR child...and you consider what your wife did as HOSTILE? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Now, let's look at foolish...wasteful...and divisive...

It was FOOLISH of YOU to take up with this OW...not once, but twice...

It was FOOLISH of YOU to do this "Without consulting my wife, I decided to relax them a little, to try and be the truly platonic friends with the OW ".

It was FOOLISH of YOU to not use birth control (DUH).

Wasteful ....let's see...

Wasteful...you WASTED time that could have been spent with your family...you know, the children that you are now all concerned about.

WASTED time that you could have been spending making amends to your wife for the original affair with this OW.

Still with me?

Divisive...

Yep, YOU are the one that has caused dissention and miscord with your children. Your wife has NOT. She is actually looking out for the best interests of the children...you know, the ones that were here long before you FOOLISHLY decided to sow some oats in another field. She knows that her children are going to need to be supported...by BOTH of you...and she has to do what she has to do in order to make that happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had hoped in the deepest part of me that somehow she could have found the strength to wait just a little while more, to let me cut the ties with the OW and our child if necessary in a way I could live with six months and then six years from now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, let me see if I have this right...you needed her to allow more time for your FENCE SITTING...and your CAKE EATING. You just didn't get enough and now you are upset? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I told both my wife and the OW that I was not prepared to make any decisions about those relationships, that they were both on hold, and that I was making no promises.

There you have it...that would have been enough for me.

You cannot now cry FOUL...you were at the wheel and you ran it off in the ditch. Looks like your wife is at the wheel now...and I APPLAUD her.

Yes, this might be a harsh post....but it's a truthful one.

Don't be looking for sympathy for things that you had control of for a long time, YOU are not the victim here. You made yourself the enemy...literally.

JMHO
committed

<small>[ February 12, 2005, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

Ok folks, let's back this bus up a little.

WELCOME TO MB LOST71. THIS IS A GREAT PLACE TO SHARE AND LEARN. WE'RE GLAD YOU'RE HERE.

I'm a little concerned by what I'm reading here. I've been a lurker for the better part of a year now and I've come to realize that even with Lost's LONG and pretty detailed post there is so much that cannot be conveyed in a few paragraphs. I am intimately aware of every detail in Lost's story. Why? Because I'm the one who sent him here. Don't make me sorry for doing that. I'm all for 2x4's and there should never be any substitute for the trut -BUT- I've realized that there is history, nuance, and the like that just cannot be conveyed. All I'm saying is to understand that and don't react from a BS perspective if it cannot be helpful. Lost isn't a new target for anyone's pain or anger. Let's please keep it productive and don't drive away someone who is here for the right reasons.

Do I defend Lost's actions? NO. Look at my tag line. I know what his wife is feeling. But I defend Lost the person. And trust me - he's taking some big steps to wholeness and personal integrity. Let's be truthful but let's not short circuit this process that has started by painting a target on Lost. He is in a PROCESS of healing. Emphasis on the word "PROCESS" please. Let's help him understand this process, his responsibility to it, and then support his recovery. Use 2x4's where necessary but refrain from posting if you feel your response is going to be less than productive for Lost or any other WS that comes here.

He's here because I encouraged him to be here and because he fought the fear to walk through the front door and introduce himself and his situation. I really hope I don't need to regret that invitation.

Thanks All. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-Flukeboy

Hello Lost,
Yep sounds like your lost, You must realize, as I see you do, what you have done to your best friend. Your wife, you may have done enough damage this affair, that you may not be able to go back to your best friend.
My H cheated on me also, also had a baby by the OW.
If your wife does stay with you, now that theres a baby on the way, thats a whole new ball game, it's not just a affair now, you have decided to father a child with the OW, while you were supposed to be commited to number one. remember your wife??????
After the fog clears from the OW's grip on you, you will remember your best friend, and she may be already gone, as a baby with the OW, hurts beyond repair for us wife's whom have been betrayed by our best friends.

My H cheated for 3 months, he also moved in with the OW, at the time, once he wanted to come home, I said yes, but the effects of her having that other child just kill me today, 3 years later, and we dont see the other child.
But to be honest, I really wish I had the back bone to leave my H. but Im scared, dont want to be alone, maybe dont want to see him with anybody else either, so I stay. But I can say sometimes I wish I left, because the strugle everyday knowing he fathered another child with somebody else, just gets me in a rage everytime I think about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Not to mention the $550.00 that she gets for CS a month.
When you do realize who is important, you had better put her first before anything or anybody, or any baby, I mean it, it already sounds like she has had her fill of your cheating with this OW.
I feel for you, it sounds like you are torn.
Go get help, stay away from the OW, she's only hurting everything you have worked so hard to build.
Im sorry to say, but it sounds like you want your wife, but something must be missing, if you keep going back to the OW. But then maybe you did because you knew you could.
Now the wife filed, how do you feel????????????
Will you please post back on that question,
you have alot to think about.
Do you want your wife, if so, do you want to have contact with OC, will wife want contact with OC,
We are here to help you, at this point I do think you need time to realize who is your famly truly.
One thing is forsure, neither one of these women, are worth dying for, not at all.
These problems will work themselfs out.
You are not the first one to be in this situation.
eveerything happens for a reason.
Please reply to the above question. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is in a PROCESS of healing. Emphasis on the word "PROCESS" please. Let's help him understand this process, his responsibility to it, and then support his recovery. Use 2x4's where necessary but refrain from posting if you feel your response is going to be less than productive for Lost or any other WS that comes here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Flukeboy,

I am not responding out of pain nor anger.

I am a bit curious as to what you expected him to be met with.

He is not in a healing process as long as he is still with the OW...AND wanting to be with his wife.

He is still in fogland...and he needs a foghorn to get out.

Recovery...what kind of recovery? Marital recovery? Personal Recovery?

It might be a good idea to send him to the General Questions area...they are the people that are openly dealing with infidelity in their marriages. Yet, I cannot imagine that they would be any softer in their responses.

I think these were pretty tame.

JMHO
committed

Flukeboy.
Commited is so right,
What lost is doing is wrong, and he came here for help.
This is the only thing that can be told to him.
I dont think theres a kind way to say " Hey your being so disrespectful to your wife and children" that you dont deserve them to stay with you, as you keep on doing the same thing that you know in you heart is causing so much pain for these people, but you still do it, to satisfy your own sexual needs, or whatever it is that keeps him going to the OW,, And honesty, what kind of women can this OW be??? really?? she will turn on him too someday.
I wish the best for his marriage with his best friend!!! as far as the OW goes in his life, LOOSER.
Sorry but it's true, look at the trouble she caused him so far.
So keep going back?????????
Get your butt home to your best friend where he belongs before it's too late.
At this point he still has a famly for a min or so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Lost71,

I'm going to be a little less harsh than some of the others, because I've sat in both seats (the WS-briefly and the BS-more lengthy).

And you're right--DUMB move to relax your boundaries with the OW!

But from the BS position: My XH told me over and over "give me time" or "I'm working on it". And I believed him. Like you, he wanted time to break things off properly.

And at one point he also wanted time away from both of us so he could make his decision. He never took that time away, though.

Here's the problem: There is NO WAY TO 'EASE' OUT OF AN AFFAIR! It won't happen.

And what happened in the mean time for us is that I finally gave up on him.

Your wife has stuck by you through some pretty tough things. You have been more fortunate than most.

The first thing you need to do is get yourself into some intense therapy to find out why you do what you do--why you turn to the apparent easy fix. My XH does the same (though with him it was generally booze). He says, "I'm weak, LL." But he wouldn't fix it.

It's a heartbreaking thing for us to endure. And I'll bet your wife did not enjoy watching you ruin your life any more than I enjoy watching my XH ruin his.

Now, I see that you then have two choices. You can either work your butt off to try and prove to your wife that you are a new person (and you really have to BE a new person to do this--no lying or hiding things or "relaxing" boundaries!!). And it may very well be too late.

The other choice, if you can't win her back, is to get yourself straightened out and be the best father you can be to your two girls.

Do NOT end up with the OW. It will only bring more heartache!

LL

One has to wonder, and be truthful with yourself if with no one else,,,,,do you really WANT your wife?? The OW?? Or do you just want SOMEONE??? I think the human instinct is that it doesn't want to be alone, and sometimes when a relationship breaks off, our first instinct is to rush into another one,,,right now you need TIME to decide WHAT you want,,,,and that probably means breaking it off with BOTH of them,,,time for heavy duty soul searching,,,time for intensive therapy,,,time to decide WHO you are and what you can GIVE someone else,,,whether it be your wife or someone else,,,good luck to you,,,H

Flukeboy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All I'm saying is to understand that and don't react from a BS perspective if it cannot be helpful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe that I reacted from a BS perspective. In fact, my post was more from my WS perspective. He will not be able to control anything his W does at this point. Her feelings are predicating her actions.

My suggestion to him to cut off all contact with both of them was to encourage him to seek help with himself. There are several red flags that are raised in his post. Reengagement of the A after intense MC, suicidal actions, and continued fence sitting.

IMVHO, resolution of all of the above are the only things that might save his M at this point. And then again, it might not.

Regardless, though, my suggestions were based to help him. By saying his W might have done him a favor, I meant it. She is pushing him to a point where he is going to have to make a choice - where he is going to have to seek personal help. Where he is having to take action. You see, I realize he is hurting. But he is also being the victim of his own emotions. He is controlling this situation. And until he actually takes control of his life, then he will not emerge happily from any of this.

I don't really think I was being hard on him. But even as a FWW, I am not going to allow myself to enable his fence-sitting. That's why I asked what his plans were.

_________________________________________________

So Lost,

What is it you want encouragement for? What is it you are seeking help with?

Lost, it took a great deal of courage to post here, I'm sure. Your story differs only in detail from many here on MB -- we can all relate to it in some way.

I do hope you find the help that you need in order to heal yourself and become the man God desires you to be, and the man you should be for the woman in your life (emphasis on only one woman).

Now, the question for your wife is whether she wants to hang around and take some more painful chances on you deciding that she's the woman you want to move on with. You must realize that she has a right to decide she's had enough. It sounds like you've given her a dump truck load of grief, man. If she is strong enough to gather her wits about her and walk away (even if she loves you still), then you have to let her do that.

I must admit your post seems to contain a bit more justifying and blame-shifting than makes me comfy. And, you seem a bit more concerned about whether your wife is going to stay with you than about improving yourself.

I can imagine your wife has dealt with it up close and personal, to be sure.

Focus on your own growth. If you love your wife, tell her so, but you gotta respect her for wanting more in her life.

PM

I appreciate the responses, and I'll try to address them all (if I miss something, feel free to bring it back up).

First, I didn't really perceive any "hostility" in the responses. I didn't come here for sympathy or a pat on the back. I've heard the straight stuff before from people like Flukeboy and others, so I can read these responses so far in the spirit I think they're intended.

As for my wife doing what she must, that part I do understand. With my head. Emotionally, though (and this is what I'm trying my best to deal with in therapy), it was a shock to realize we were going to apparently fight it out over matters that we'd previously discussed and I thought were agreed upon, like support and the division of bills and the few assets. She and I have always communicated well, and I thought we'd worked through the bulk of that stuff. When it came up that she was going to establish fault, my lawyer advised me that in our no-fault state that involves a great deal of personal attack, that generally an affair is not enough to merit a significantly unbalanced distribution. The other part that hurt was being limited to only every other weekend seeing my kids, when we'd always discussed more liberal visitation. That felt hostile and unnecessarily harmful to the kids, who are obviously very upset by all this and seem to like to spend lots of time with me. That is what seemed hostile. Child support was never in question to me -- I had promised to continue to support the children above the CS formulas to keep things as stable as possible in the household financially.

On the other hand, I realize she's afraid and it's in her personality to eliminate all the uncertainty she can, especially when I've done nothing to merit any trust. That's part of the injury I've caused, and I accept that (at least with my head -- again, I really am working on aligning that understanding with my emotions and not letting them run loose, making everything worse).
_____________________________

LIT, I can relate to your feelings about your H's unwillingness to own his contributions to the marriage's problems. I see a lot of that in my STBXW, though I also see that the pain I've caused is more than enough for her to have to deal with, especially since we are separated and I'm so, well, lost. And regardless, the things she did or didn't do to help the M didn't merit the A.

As hard as it is to experience, I agree that she may well be doing me a favor by forcing the separation to another level -- this isn't a game, real people with their own needs and emotions and limitations are involved. You are dead-on about the impulse control problems which have manifested in other aspects of my life (namely spending, and alcohol and pornography both in the past). As I've overcome other negative coping mechanisms, I've wondered if it made me "weaker" in the face of the A when the opportunity arose.

I'm really am trying to do just what you described -- separate myself from both of them, because exposure to them only interferese with my ability to work through my own issues with neediness. It is hard in both cases. With my STBXW, it will get easier as this proceeds and the lawyers take over. With the OW, well, we still work together every day. I am looking for a new job, and so is she, but in the meantime I can't afford to bankrupt both my STBXW and I with a prolonged period of unemployment. The OW is ostensibly trying to give me space, but I believe she is simply waiting in the wings, believing I will give up on the marriage and take my place with her raising the baby. She is smart enough to see the way her excessive pressure last summer blew up in her face. I absolutely believe that no relationship I enter into right now has any chance until I learn to control these emotions and impulses. It's very difficult to face the hardest, most frightening emotional challenges of my life at the same time I'm earnestly trying to learn to master those same emotions.

I think there's a fine line between explanation and justification, and I'm sure I drift between the two. I really do think I am trying to own my mistakes, and in fact to connect the dots between my recent failures and the pattern of behavior of my whole life -- very early sexual activity, and very frequent with many, many partners, right up to getting married (during which there were obviously too many, too).

I very much appreciate your thoughtful feedback. I'll get back to my plans at the end. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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Committed, you are right on all fronts, and those are all statements I do understand and agree with. With my head. I am working to let that understanding rule my decisions and actions, rather than my emotional responses. It is very hard, and I'm not very good at it yet. In our discussions during the time between her finding out and the separation, I had more than once told her she should file for divorce and move on. As her friend, I get that. As this emotional mess that I am, it's hard to deal with. I appreciate your response. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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TONeil, I sympathize very much with your situation. It was Flukeboy calling this board to my attention that even made me ever think this pregnancy didn't have to be the end of our marriage by itself. During the first pregnancy this summer, my STBXW offered freely to raise the child ourselves, if the OW was willing (she was and is not). But there are other ways the baby situation can be addressed and fix the marriage, too. I just don't know how to begin to explore them, especially when the wounds for my STBXW are so raw. I say this in no way to diminish the damage I've done, but to truly fix the marriage we'd both need to be very willing to change and meet each other's needs.

In the hierarchy of emotional needs, I'm very, very strong in sexuality and affection, and my STBXW is very much not. She's not a cuddler or even a hugger; her whole family is very undemonstrative, and it all feels like groping or foreplay to her. The OW, for better or probably worse, is very affectionate, and I've seen the way just an hour with her is like a mainline right to my heart. I don't know how willing or able my STBXW would ever be to adapt to this; she's tried before (as have I, to find ways to speak her primary "love language" of acts of service) with not much success.

I'll come back to how I feel now at the end of this post. Thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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lordslady, believe me, allowing the collapse of the boundaries issue at work is a serious regret I have. Whatever her faults may be, my STBXW is a woman of great character and personal strength, both of which I feel I've only diminished during our marriage. A large part of me, the part that is just her friend, believes pursuing divorce is the best thing she could do for herself. I really believe that using this time apart to work on myself and my bad emotional impulses is crucial to living the rest of my life better than I have up to now, whomever I'm with if anyone. I am in weekly therapy, working through workbooks at home, journaling -- none of which I've ever done before. For the first time, I believe I'm on the right track in addressing the emotions and unhappiness I've brought on myself, but it's a long road, and after everything that's happened I don't think it's fair to ask my STBXW to wait around and see what happens. Yet, I also believe that when I come out the other side of this, I will make a damned good husband for someone, believe it or not, and deep in me I know my values would call me to direct that toward her, were she willing then. That she may well never be, I am working to accept on the emotional level the same way I understand it with my head. Twelve years of emotional support is a serious crutch I need to learn to walk without before I can walk next the her or anyone else, and if nothing else as a better father for my girls. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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Crushed, you've succinctly described just what I'm trying to do, without the lengthy rambling I typed up Saturday morning. Thanks for your response. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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papermom, though I've been horribly disrespectful I do have a lot of respect for my STBXW and everything she's tried her best to endure. I admit that my post -- and my feelings today! -- drift between explanation and justification, and I don't really believe the things I've done are justifiable. Some of that was expressed after a sleepless night, one of the worst of my life, and in the context not of justifying what I've done but still trying to understand how it relates to everything I've done badly related to impulses and emotions throughout my life.

What I don't want to do -- as expressed in my "no promises" approach to this separation -- is make and break more commitments to anyone. It's not a reflection of my heart's desire or my values, but rather a difficult position of trying to be realistic about the hold my neediness has on me, the pull to make her not mad anymore, to just say whatever I have to to regain her approval, whether or not I've got the skills to stand by it. That's what I feel led to the recurrance -- indeed, I saw it coming. Thank you for your response. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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As to how do I feel? Frankly, abandoned and rejected, which leads right to my two emotional bugbears, anger and depression. Should I have been rejected? Of course, I really do get it. But those are the feelings and fears I'm afraid have led to so much of this, and I am trying to face them head on and grow beyond them. With a little sleep and time having passed, I feel a little more able to incorporate these feelings into the work I'm doing in therapy. But it's hard. No matter what happens, I don't want my emotional struggles to continue to harm her or my kids.

What are my plans? At the moment, just to continue on with my therapy and this work on myself. Again, whatever happens with these women, I need to do this to ever really hope to live a better life, either alone or with someone. The divorce of course will proceed; her lawyer will probably be calling tomorrow with the divorce complaint, which I'll send my lawyer to retrieve and file a countersuit. Legal stuff that appears necessary, as unpleasant as it is. I'm afraid of it taking on a life of its own, but all I can do is the best I can to not let emotions make it all worse. There's just so much ugliness that could come out of all this, it frightens me for all of us. With no intention of taking advantage or of ever jeopardizing the kids financially, I'd hoped for at least an amicable process, but her fears and lack of trust are understandable.

Thanks again, everyone. Talking it out like this is very helpful. If I've missed anything in my response (or misinterpreted anything you've said!) just let me know.

Well there you may have it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> You get more affection from the OW,, that in itself will do it, it's only natural to want love, to cuddle with somebody. it has a was of making you feel good all over, inside and out,, no matter what bills you have to pay, or what the kids did wrong today, cuddling really makes all stress ease up.
Maybe you might be better with OW??????
If she makes you feel better, I mean you know what W is made of, if she dont give you the phsycial and emotional love you need, you will always long for it, ya know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Once in awhile, someone says something on this site that just rocks me back on my heels... and this is one of those times!

The remarks in question are in bold ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost71:
I made the critical error of deciding the rules were a barrier to improving the situation. Without consulting my wife, I decided to relax them a little, to try and be the truly platonic friends with the OW we'd been before the affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not consulting your wife .... and then this ....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After enduring so much throughout our marraige, my wife files for divorce and, contrary to seeking a mediator as we'd discussed, she engaged an attorney for all negotiations and drastically altered all the terms of custody, visitation, and division of assets and bills we'd discussed before. I had prepared myself for divorce proceedings to begin, knowing we had six months to let events unfold before it would be final, but I was stunned by what I perceived as the hostility of the act -- not in her tone, but in bringing in lawyers, racking up expenses to split up what amounts to negative net worth. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are "stunned" by your wife's "hostility" when she makes a defensive, self-protective decision *** without consulting *** YOU ...! Really?

Are you kidding?

Hers was NOT a hostile act.

It was a very smart move, considering your proclivity to make unilateral independant decisions to ruin her life!

If I were your wife's friend, I'd offer to help her find an attorney.

She SHOULD protect herself from you. You are the biggest danger she has in her life!

I wish you healing .... and I support your wife's ( so-called hostile) decision to get an attorney.

Pep

Thanks for the response Pep; I'm sure you are right.