HOW TO TELL HE'S CHANGING
He acknowledges and accepts responsibility for what he's done, fully acknowledges that he used abuse to control you and that it was wrong,
and he isn't blaming you, other people, his stress, his job, or any other
outside circumstances for his choices. He is no longer denying it, making light of it, or making excuses for it. He acknowledges that he chose to behave this way instead of saying that other people made him do it, or that he can't
control himself. He fully understands and acknowledges that what he did
was wrong. He admits lies, he admits what he's done and is not longer making up
stories to make himself look better. He is no longer trying to hide his behavior from others. He understands that recovery from abusiveness
takes a long time and he'll have to work at it for a long, long time.

He understands what his behavior has cost you. He understands fully that you
and your children have been hurt by what he's done, and the ways in which you've been hurt. He will talk about it with you in depth about how you feel, your fear, your hurt, your anger, your rights, your lack of trust for him and understands fully that it is his behavior that has caused it.
When you express anger at him, he listens instead of getting angry and trying to
shout you down, threatening you or trying to convince you that something's
wrong with you for feeling that way. He is sorry for what he's done, and is working hard to overcome the damage he's done and is actively making up for it by giving you back what is rightfully yours - money, rights, freedoms,
choices, etc.. He understands that it will take his victims a long time to recover from what he's done to them.

He is proving to you that he understands that you're a human being with rights and is no longer trying to take them away from you. No more double
standards. He understands that you're an equal human being, and he's not superior to you. He's pulling his weight. He's respecting your
opinions, even the ones with disagree with his. He's accepting your right to be angry
with him for what he's done, and you can talk about his abuse with him. He's
respecting your right to independence and your right to freedom. He stops interfering in your friendships and family relationships and you are
able to re-establish and repair these, and make new friends. He stops monitoring your movements, demanding to know where you are and who's there. He stops expecting sex on demand. He is taking into account how you're affected by his behavior and choices. He's stopped drinking. He's stopped doing those things that are inappropriate for a committed relationship. Affairs, keeping all the control over the money, etc.. He's fair with money, allowing you to have your assets in your name, a job if you want, etc.. He takes
responsibility for what he does and how it affects you and the children.
He's no longer treating you like a servant. He acknowledges the contributions you made to the relationship.

He is no longer blocking communication, he listens and respects what you have to say. He will discuss with you the controlling behaviors and attitudes he's had. He listens to you, even when you're angry instead of trying to bully you or threaten you into shutting up. You are able to
express yourself, speak freely and feel safe doing so. You're able to express your anger, feelings. He accepts your right to be angry and he listens when you express it and thinks about your points, he makes an effort to understand. He listens to you without interrupting and allows your thoughts even if he doesn't agree. When you discuss his behaviors that
hurt you and the children, he takes them seriously and stops them. You can speak
and act freely without him retaliating. He's communicating without manipulation, his usual tactics to block you. If he tries to control
you, you can point it out to him and he'll stop. Accepts feedback, criticism.

He stops cutting you down and starts focusing on what's good, your strength and your abilities. He is not putting you down, trying to convince you your perception is off, that you're crazy, that you're stupid, etc.. He stops his
abuse. Completely, once and for all. He's respectful and doesn't guilt you into things or throw fits. He does not pressure you into things or out of things. He's not intimidating you, he's not threatening you. He's stopped
undermining you, and supports you instead. He is making a big effort to be non abusive.

And just as helpful....
HOW TO TELL HE'S NOT CHANGING

He says "I can't change unless you do." Which means that he's trying to get you to agree to give up your rights and freedoms in exchange for him not abusing you. Also stated as "I've changed, but you aren't changing"; "I'm not the only one who needs help".

He tries to get sympathy from you, family members, and friends. He is still lying to you, the children, your family or other people about what he's done. He continues to attempt to cover up what he's done to you and the children. He won't acknowledge that it was wrong. He doesn't seem sorry that he did it, he only seems sorry that he has suffered some consequences for it.

He refuses to let the subject of his abuse come up or gets angry when it does. He won't discuss his controlling behaviors and attitudes. He still
tries to deny it, minimize it, excuse it, or justify it. Defends his behaviors. He insists you just get past it.

He plays victim. He says "How could you do this to me.?" He still whines and blames you for all the problems. *He is overly charming, always trying to remind you of all the good times you had together and ignore the bad.
He tries to buy you back with romantic gifts, dinners, flowers. All while trying to convince you that you need to stay together to work it out.

He will not get help or He says he'll get counseling or other help, but never does. Or he does and tries to convince you that he's cured and you need to take him back now. "Now that I'm in this program, you have to be more understanding." Or "I'm learning a lot from this program". If a man is pressuring you this way, then as soon as he gets back in, he will most
likely drop the program. This is why it's so critical, if you're considering taking him back, to watch his behaviors, to talk in depth, and to give it time. Sometimes, instead of counseling they will suddenly claim to have found God; he goes to church a few times.

He cries and begs, they particularly like to do this in a public situation so that you are embarrassed and appear to be "cold hearted".

He does things to try to sabotage your efforts to make it on your own.

He harasses or stalks you. If you ask him for space or time, he refuses to allow you to have any and continues to make contact in any way he can.
Harassment by phone calls, threats, legal frustrations, showing up at work,hanging around family.

He continues to restrict your rights. He still behaves as if he's superior.
You aren't able to express yourself and speak freely. He still demands constant attention, won't allow you to take care of your own needs. He still picks at you and criticizes you, and ignores your strengths and contributions to the relationship. He doesn't support your
independence, still refuses to acknowledge that you have rights. He hangs on to double
standards. He is still denying you your fair share of the marital assets,
money. He puts his wants and needs above yours.

He doesn't recognize the damage he's done. He gets angry with you over the consequences you've suffered over his abuse. He's mad or seems confused as to why you fear him, don't trust him, are hurt, and angry. He tries to get
out of the consequences by trying to convince you that something's wrong with you for allowing him to have any consequences. He behaves as if
he's above reproach. He claims that he would never hurt you, despite that he's done many things to hurt you. He's mad that you left, instead of recognizing your right to have done so. He still acts like you owe him. He's
impatient or critical with you for not forgiving him immediately, for not being satisfied with the changes he may have already made, especially if he hasn't made the changes you requested, or hasn't changed but claims he has.

He's only concerned with how hard the situation is for him, and no one else.
He feels sorry for himself. He doesn't show appropriate concern for how you and the children feel about what he's done. Abuse does more than just hurt,it is damaging, and if he doesn't show appropriate concern for the damage he's done, then he hasn't changed.

He still does things that are inappropriate for an intimate relationship.Cheating, not including you in family decisions, hoarding all the
marital assets - money, property, cars, stocks, bonds, etc. and won't allow you tohave access to them.

He says he can only change if you help him, he wants emotional support and forgiveness, and give up your break from him.

He says I'm changing but you can see that he's not. He gets angry with you for not realizing how much he's changed. He gets angry for not trusting that he's changed for good. Abusive men often say I'm sorry then get mad if you don't immediately forget what they did, he thinks his sorry resolves the matter and it should be dropped and you should just move forward.

He pressures you into taking him back because he "can't wait forever".

He trash talks you to the children.

He threatens and tries to intimidate you. The next step of behavior is generally one of threats and attempts to intimidate. This will often include threats to attack family and friends, threats to kill you or "put out a
contract on you." Threats that he will take the children away or get custody
of them himself, or threats to kill himself.



*This list comes from the book: "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft

WOW! Some of this hits home. Fortunately, there has been no threats about hurting hmself or any of us. If that was the case? I would sneak out in the middle of the night with the kids!!!

I hope this information gets read.

Try posting this on JFO and General Questions. I think this will help a lot of people out there!

Ali~

Sometimes the woman just doesn't want to see the changes so she can keep up with her affair...

T

OK-- I'll post it on the other general discussion board too.
BUt this is for women (and men) who are being abused.... it doesn't have much to do with marriage builders.
I guess it might help some women who maybe don't realize they are in an abusive relationship?
I dunno.
So, which list hit home with you-- he's changing or he's not changing?
lol
Lucy

lucy,

just found your posts. I´ve read the book a while back and didn´t remember how detailed the lists were.
Thanks for posting them.

Hope you don´t mind I copied and pasted them to the Emotional Needs forum.

Hey Lucy!

Great posts. I HAVE to order that book. I read the "not changing" list and see Fogman of course. 2 years ago, I would have explained his behavior away as usual, but I'm feeling stronger the longer I am away from his chaos and ugliness.

I cannot picture him EVER changing and that is not a statement made in anger or hurt.

Thanks lucycakes,

I have just read both lists and am not surprised to find that my H is still in the "not changing list". He is an exact copy of the list in a human form. I am amazed that I make it through a day without having a breakdown. but then again I've been listening to this for quite some time now.

Thanks again for reminding me of just how much crap they'll (men & women) say to gert us to overlook the fact that they have to suffer their own consequences.

It is not the other persons FAULT, so why can't they just move on or let us move on?

W2E <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What do you do when they are not changing and do not want to change? How do you accept that?

If you can see that he's not changing then it's up to you what to do.
Don't lie to yourself or others. If he's a jerk to me, then to me that means I have only two choices... live with it, or leave.
A lot of men wake up when they are left or given up on.
I love my STBXH, and I always will. I can see now that his meannness is a part of his character that he had to have. IT's too bad it ruined everything, but that was the way it goes. I can't be expected to put up with being treated poorly.
SO, I love him, but from afar.
we talk, we are friends. He is changing and I wish him the best.
But can I subject myself to his behaviours as a wife? No. I like myself too much.
And in liking myself and not allowing him to abuse me any longer, I am helping him preserve his own idea of self-worth.
If hec an't abuse me, we are both better off.
And unfortunately, it was up to me to set that parameter.
But be careful... men liket his get under your skin, and concvince you that it's you. Be clear. stay strong. Leave, and stay away. Have no contact for a long time. Get a TOP (temp order of protection).

I shared this list with my H last year.
It made him cry.
it was the first time I had communicated with him in 43 days was to share this list and let him know I was basing talking to him or not on these criteria.
If I saw change, I'd allow him to call or email. If I didn't, then there's no way I was going to walk back into his lion's den of tortured emotions.
Actions speak louder than words.
I"m glad everyone else is finding this helpful.
Lucy

Bumping for Horsey!
I think I put this up while you were gone.
Lucy

Good post.

My husband since I left him before Christmas

"Look what you did to me..."

"I'm stuck, I"m broke..."

"It's all your fault..."

"Now I won't be able to raise my child, see what you've done..."

"It's the bad economy that I might lose my job (third job loss)..."

"I can't sell the house, I'll lose (bought a house way over his means despite my input)..."

"You did this as much as me, you know you did (fighting, bruises, in fact I did about 5% compared to him during our four year marriage)..."

"You are so irresponsible... (leaving him, he has to criticize me even when I'm gone)..."

"When are you moving back, we'll just quit fighting (you said we'd quit the last time, then this happened, I warned you I'd call the police, you didn't believe me)...."

"They are making me go to counseling, it's costing so much money, I'm broke (you were warned over and over not to hurt your wife)..."

"I'm on probation, they won't let me go anywhere..."

"I can't do anything, go out, I'm broke... (you helped with household bills, you owe me)"

NOPE, there's been no I'm sorry, no acceptance of responsibility, no realizing how wrong he was, no realizing how hard this has been on me and my son to move out and get an apartment, no acknowledgement of how he hurt me physically and mentally, NOPE....

I'm now reading "Changes That Heal" - and before that "Safe People". Between these two books, I believe I'm forming some answers for myself.

First, I know I have some of my own changes to make, but that's another subject so I won't go there now. How to tell if my H changed? The three things I would look for are Grace, Truth, and Responsibility. There might be others for other people, but these work for me. The following is not meant to bash my H, but to use examples to illustrate what I mean. Some of the things that are issues for me, might not be for someone else.

Grace is unconditional love (or acceptance for who you are). Grace allows someone to accept the real you, and therefore this allows you to BE your real self. This means he would have to accept ME as I am, failures and all, even if I'm not perfect. It means he'd have to stop complaining that he was "duped" and didn't get what he was expecting (which he has claimed I "did to him"). His present line of reasoning does NOT seem to demonstrate Grace, as I have come to understand it (and the thing I find myself LONGING for). As long as his love is conditional, and he rejects me anytime his personal judgement of me doesn't measure up to what he wants from me, there is no Grace between us and I am not free to be my authentic self.

Truth is the reality, the rules, the structure. When you tell it like it is, you give someone truth. When you also give that person grace, you are recognizing their failures (seeing reality and not making them hide from you) but also loving them anyway. Truth means my H would have to be willing to accept constructive criticism from others (including me, but also his friends, co-workers, etc.). When people have to avoid telling him things he doesn't want to hear, there is no intimacy possible.

Responsibility is the third thing. This is more complicated (for me) to understand. It is easier for me to spot a lack of it than the presence of it. My H, for example, threw tantrums over things that made him uncomfortable. (Real tantrums, screaming, crying, etc.) When he failed to handle his finances responsibly and it caused him a problem, the topic was not open for discussion because he couldn't deal with it. It didn't matter that my credit was at stake as well - I didn't have the right to "expect him to take responsibility" when he wanted to avoid the uncomfortable issue.

In later years, any mention of financial uncertainly was off limits because he perceived this as a personal criticism of him. Now that it is tax season, this issue has resurfaced. He is avoiding dealing with taxes (all the receipts are coming to him at my old house) - but doesn't want to be confronted about it, and I have no idea if and when he's going to address it at all. (The last two years we had to file extensions because he couldn't get his own documentation in order in time.)

Great info!

Added to my list of proof of change:

He acknowledges that the OW were not 'good girls', better than me, innocent of any wrongdoing, 'concerned about our daughters'.

He acknowledges that he sought and got 'support' from coworkers and his family for the adultery.
He acknowledges that he allowed them to help destroy our marriage and family. He discusses this with them, asking them to never again assist him in betraying his wife and family. He distances himself from friends who support adultery and/or don't support our marital recovery.

He acknowledges that it was his responsibility to ensure his marriage and family were safe from the threat of adultery.

He acknowledges that certain supposedly 'innocent' activities (going out to lunch with female coworkers, discussing personal matters with female coworkers, flirting, porn) put our marriage at risk and not merely concedes to accountability but WANTS to be accountable.

He acknowledges that he sought satisfaction outside the marriage for needs I was offering to fulfill for him; he makes a committment to allow me to be the only one who fulfills those needs for him.

He acknowledges that he failed to meet my needs, yet I did not get my needs met elsewhere; He makes a committment to meet those needs for me.

He does the work of proving he is worthy of another chance to our daughters and my family/friends.

And of course he sends a no contact letter to OW that I get to read and we mail together.

Also, if the divorce is already final he will have to follow the same courting guidelines I will be applying to any man I date: Only group dates at first, no sex before marriage, premarital counseling, see how he treats me in front of his family, coworkers, friends and whether or not he will defend me if they disrespect me or our relationship.

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

Deja Vu--
I kept asking for graciousness all along. My H just never "got" it. He didn't know how. Grace wasn't in his vocabulary.
I NEED grace just to breath.
I couldn't express that enough.
Trust too, but grace is part of that-- we all have insecurities, At least I know I do, but I always invest in my grace at those times, give the benefit of the doubt, rise to the occassion, express as tactfully as I can what my insecurity was without blame or criticism....
That was before I crossed the line into loathing myself and him and didn't care about grace any longer.
I have grace again tho. I'm able to be his friend, and it feels wonderful to feel like I have no unresolved issues haunting me any longer. I let it all go... all the resentments, all the anger, all the loathing.
I know he's selfish self centered person with intimacy issues and that's OK. He realizes he's got no business being in a relationship as he is.
I'm happy for him, and for me.
Grace... yeah!
Meremortal, you sound really clear. That's good!
Lucy

I feel that way, like I'm finally letting go of the anger, rage, resentment towards my husband. We've been separated two and a half months now. I am finally looking back knowing it was for the best to move out, it's been hard, but every day is better. I feel at peace for the first time in ages. Ate least tonight I do. I have my mood swings. Thank goodness it's spring and my little boy and I are doing some serious walking and exploring. My husband never calls, last time he called he just whined and whined "poor me" and what I did to him. At least your husband sees that he has problems and needs to change. I don't think mine has a clue, three broken marriages and he's blamed it all on other people. It's sad in a way, I don't know if I should feel sorry for him or not anymore. I don't feel like we were ever really intimate, he couldn't deal with being close, guess that's where alcohol, tv, sports and such came in. Plus chores, always being busy so he didn't have to really develop a relationship with me. Are we all screwed up people? Sometimes I feel like I deserted him, but last night on tv the man who wrote the book on boundaries was on the Christian station, he said you help someone by holding them accountable, by setting boundaries, by not letting them get by with bad behavior. That's how you help them grow and change. I had to leave to do this, I don't know what's going on with him. I'm giving him his space, I need mine right now. I need to find myself again, by walking, getting outside, meeting new people, hanging out at coffeeshops, working, riding my horse, looking at the stars and such... "I'M" coming back. What happens in such relationships that you lose yourself so much? That you don't stand up for who you are? Or when you do it's in such an ugly way? I was so ugly in this marriage, someone I'd never be, I don't think without someone constantly pushing my buttons. Sometimes I think it was purposeful, that my own husband was trying to bring me down to his level. I was so happy and filled with life when I met him. I was naive about marriage, I had no clue it could become like this. He saw that in me. Once married slowly he tried to prevent me from being me anymore. I felt like my life wasnt' mine, I told him that over and over. This isn't me, he thought he could mold me into some yuppie wife with the house and lifestyle, I am more down to earth. Now he's alone in the big house, at least I think he is. My mom thinks he'll find someone new right away, perhaps she's right, that's easier then working on yourself isn't it? He's always done that in the past, even while we were married he apparently lined up a few women, and was calling some just a friend. Will he learn a lesson about his shallow life? Does it even matter? Someone I'm caring less and less every day. I want to get closer to God and real life, he's just going to deny and get closer to the Devil. God will help me through this, I'm not yet ready to file for divorce, but I think I will be. Somehow I want to give him the benefit of the doubt for six months, now I'm down to four months. Like some looming deadline, giving myself the peace that I tried one last time to give him a final chance, he doesn't deserve. As all he says is look what you did to me... sad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by horsey:
<strong> I feel that way, like I'm finally letting go of the anger, rage, resentment towards my husband. We've been separated two and a half months now. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You and I have parallel lives... on almost the same time table.. You have your horses, I have my dogs, and we both have 2.5 months of serenity. Tonight my out of town friends - whom I haven't seen since November - commented that I seem SO much happier and content than last time they saw me. One of them said, "too bad, but it seems like your H is a very unhappy man - he does not seem to be doing well."

We can sleep at night, though, you and I. We did the right thing for the right reasons. You are right about the boundary thing meaning holding the other person accountable. This is the thing I NOW realize my H cannot be, and I can see it now when I couldn't before.

How does that song go?

"I can see clearly now,
The rain is gone,
I can see all
Obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds
That had me blind
It’s gonna be a bright,
Bright, sun-shiny day.

I think I can make it now,
The pain is gone
All of the bad feelings
Have disappeared
Here is the rainbow
I’ve been prayin’ for
It’s gonna be a bright,
Bright, sun-shiny day.

Look all around,
There’s nothin’
But blue skies
Look straight ahead,
Nothin’ but blue skies

I can see clearly now,
The rain is gone,
I can see all
Obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds
That had me blind
It’s gonna be a bright,
Bright, sun-shiny day."

Cheers!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=005087

Hi guys,

I can safely say that we are not perfect.I see that there are traits here that resemble my charcter and where I have done wrong! I freely admit that I am not perfect.. but would have liked a 2nd chance and support from my wife to change.

Please read my story above. What I can't understand is that my wife never ever sat me down and told me that I had some of these traits and need to cahnge. Instead; she elected to have an ongoing affair and relationship with OM.

Even though I suspected that there was something wrong; i confronted her and she said that I was imagining things .. so I trusted her .. to my dimise!!

What does this suggest.. that there are actions and reactions. I was wrong and started to try and understand human behaviours .. whilst she elected to have an affair..

In truth, I was jealous and alaways feared that my wife would have an affair. Why .. because her behaviour was such that:-

1. She had a phone list of male friends and freely admitted to geeting on with males better than females.

2.When we first got together .. and she lived in Scotland for a while ..I found her a job at IBM and she needed the experience.I phoned once and her flat mate/girlfdreind suggested to me that she was out with a male friend ..?? I reacted with rage and hurt badly! We had ben together 2 years but not married! I never found out if this was true or a lie .. she said that her friend was telling lies..

3. I found a photo of a male collaegue on her phone with the words .. sexy beast .. My wife had been married to me for 10 years. She was late in arriving at our childs play and when I asked why she was alte and looked at her phone .. this is what I found. My reaction was I am sorry to say rage and disgust .. that my wife was not only late for her sons play .. but her actions where inappropriate for a married woman and mother. I slapped her infront of people..an error I know .. but I was angry!!

4. I came to pick her up from work and found that she was giving a lift to a male colleague. Imagine this .. her and my son with a stranger in the car infront .. while I follow behind in my car .. what an idiot/damage to my self-esteem that was !!

5. My mother caught her caught her .. flirting with my father (Repeat Adluterer).. I don't know how true this is .. but I did not take my mothers word for this ; despite what she told me.I thought that hse must have mis-interpreted her signals .. in hind sight maybe not !!

6.My wife suggested to my mother on occasions why do I knot have an affair ? Funny thing to say!

7.She invited male friend (Lover) to the house and leet him take a shower. I was dusgusted with myself for not saying anything .. He had been invited over by my wife so that he could help me erect a shed. i did not want to appear a brute and refuse or kick him out of the hosue!! How stupid I was!!

8. She has since rand off with this man and prevented me from seeing my children!

I do feel like the dark clouds have lifted, like I can breathe again. It's fresh air for the first time in years. I called my husband this am, hadn't talked to him since he called me about a week ago whining about his life. Sometimes I feel sorry for him, sometimes I don't. He was very hard on me, mean, and it got worse with his new job as he was very unhappy at his bank. Now likely he'll lose that job, he lost the last one too. I guess they overpromoted him, to positions he really didn't have the skills for and he likes the money. So he spent a lot on our house, cars and the works, feeling successful. It seemed empty to me, and now it must be for him alone in that big house. He's going to his anger management classes with 10 or so men, he said the counselor was really good. I agreed that I would meet him with a marriage counselor next week when I'm in town for business. We also have to work on our taxes here soon. I'm not very open to reconciling at this point, he still thinks we will, makes comments and such. Sometimes I remember all the good other times I remember mostly the bad. I wound up taking "happy pills" the past few weeks, and they are helping, my dad is dying of cancer too and I needed a boost. I dont' want to stay on them long though. I'm thrilled about starting the South Beach diet, I'm exercising more and feeling good about myself agaain, at least starting to as I progress. My business is doing well and I found new good daycare in the town I moved to so I can work more. I love my little boy, it's spring and we are going on a lot of walks. Ok, my husband didn't wnat to hear all the good things I guess, he asked. Yes, he's miserable, he's not doing good at all - so why am I doing so well without him? Do men that tend to be abusive need someone there to dump their garbage on? I used to be naturally in love with life and I lost a lot of my spark in this marriage. I became so angry and ugly. I sometimes want to blame myself for reacting to him in the wrong way, I have to to a certain extent as two wrongs don't make a right. But he pushed and pushed and pushed my buttons, was warned over and over again. I cryed, pleaded and it didn't work. Moving out, being cold, short conversations, that has worked to get my point across. Guess tough loves does do the trick sometimes, but I don't know that he's sorry, he still hasn't admitted how he hurt me. Guess in our counseling session next week I'll bring it up, is there any responsibility there? Will the classes help? I've emailed a few men I met online where they did help, and they woke up after their wives dumped them. I'll keep this list of changes as I'd expect major changes or there's no way I'll ever go back to that nightmare of a life....