My wife made a comment to me the other day about this site, “Marriage Builders really works well when you follow the process”. She looked calm and in control, she looked like she was at peace. I agreed, even though I wasn’t at peace with myself. The simple reason is I haven’t followed the process, just like must men I chose to handle it my self. I opened the box tossed the instruction booklet to the side and started to assemble, needless to say it’s been two years and I am still fumbling with parts.

My wife and I separated two years ago, that’s right can you imagine your life on hold for two years. There are lots of reasons why we separated the worst being that I started seeing another woman. And as you all know by now the complications that go with that are tremendous, my wife didn’t trust me when I hadn’t done anything. The small amount of trust she may have had was shattered for ever. Looking back it just took one of us namely me to pack up leave the other women go home and just start over. That’s right, it’s that simple just go home and start over. Sounds crazy I know because that’s not how it works we are human and it is sometimes in are nature to complicate things. Truth is I do love my wife and children, it’s just complicated because there are so many rules to follow. Not to mention the fact that sometimes there is absolutely no control on her part she say’s and does what ever she wants and she is completely justified because she didn’t cheat. After all this time she is still making every one involved pay and to be truthful that is what scares me. I need help getting my life on track, I need the friendship and love that we once had when we supported one and other. Without friendship and love there isn’t anything else, it always get worse after I try to do something nice……….what’s up with that. If there is anybody reading this that is involved with an other or has a wayward spouse, think about what you are doing before you act because once you cross that line there may be no way back or there may be no way to get them back.

Well, now that my wife has finally asked sorry, told me that she wants a divorce I am ready to get some support. It might be time to move on but I am not sure, I recently spent some time away from home, I am always away from home because of my job. I decided to write the no contact letter and when I got back stay with a friend until things got better. It’s not going very well and I need some help. I can’t live like this either. Half the time I am arguing with my wife about one thing or another. She’s allowed to question me about everything however, I can’t talk to her about anything. She tells me she wants a divorce, that she is getting lawyers so she can get more money, and that I can’t take the children to certain places and it goes on. Should I just call it a day get a lawyer and move on, the problem is every time this happens I find myself back at the beginning. This has been a marry go round and it’s time to get off. Love lasts for ever it might just be that it’s not the right time for us. I think that I need some professional help with these conflicts I have so if anybody could guide me to someone it would be helpful.

NHMUA, Sorry you're here. Your story is familiar to all of us. I have two suggestions. First, post on GQII rather than here because there are many more posters and many more in your situation. By the time we get here, our M's are really over. Many here are already divorced and either dating or remarried. Second, I'd suggest marriage counseling - you can get counseling by phone through this website that follows MB principles. Good luck to you.

Hey man,

I'm guessing that when she says you can't take the children to certain places, those places are basicly where your other woman is. Am I right?

-AD

AD

Yes, that’s right there has been times I have been ready to pack the whole thing in and just move on. However, I always end up not feeling comfortable, this last time around I did make what I considered a real effort to change. It seems the nicer I am the more anger there is. Example, I came back from a business trip asked her if she wanted to do to dinner. All through dinner I felt uncomfortable, she felt the need to call me a snob and so on. The next morning I went to pick up my son and that’s when it got bad, A big fight, well one sided I might add, then I noticed the sofa had been shredded in certain sections. She told me she had stabbed the sofa, I ended up leaving. This is the problem the anger never seems to subside. I have been staying at a friends house and it hasn’t been going to well. Next is the divorce thing, I have decided I can’t control what people think or do. I am trying to work on myself and I think that things are getting better I just need someone to talk to. And so if she is going to divorce me what’s wrong with me moving on, she seems to be moving on and in her words it’s non of my concern and I shouldn’t ask questions. Because I was the one who made the mistakes......

One of the issues in your situation is that you are masking the problems so that you do not have to face certain facts. You are still married and from your conversation with AD you indicate that you were living with another woman. Most people call that cheating. Do you think that your extra marital affairs could have been a reason for her hostility? See, as I’m sure she is far from perfect and part of the cause for your affair, but it doesn't mean you are without blame. If you have problems you are required to settle them before you make matters worse by bringing in another person. The moment you left your wife, you gave up your rights to influence her and to work things out. Now, for you to make things right, you need to fix your own problems even before you try to work anything out with her. Obviously, you are carrying a lot of hostility and you cannot accept any blame for your marriage failing. These are two huge problems that you need to fix. Why would anyone want you with that kind of baggage? She is not your mother and no longer your wife, so she has no reason to try to help you anymore, besides I’m sure she is royally pissed as you for betraying the marriage by cheating on her and the kids. Betrayal is a hard pill to swallow for a woman. One of our biggest pluses with women is that we can be her protector figure, her rock to rest upon and her place to make her feel comfortable. When you take that away you really have nothing. When you say you are never home cause of the job there is no protection. When she sees your anger and hostility there is no comfort and when you cheat there is not rock for a foundation. Dude you lost it cause you forgot to be a husband and a man. Before you can be a husband you better find out what it is to be a man again. Cheating, not seeing your kids and being hostile to the mother of your children is certainly no way to start. Good luck

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> that’s right can you imagine your life on hold for two years </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I bet that would be especially difficult knowing that your H was shacking up with the OW the entire time, spent most of his time avoiding paying child support (AKA - feeding his children) - yet at the same time purchasing expensive coats for himself in England and taking OW on ski trips while you are dependent on the help of family to raise your children.

I know a man who has not only had an extramarital affair, but has been living with that woman for two years. During that time, he has had at least one good opportunity to go home, but instead of exercising self-control and actually living up to his promises, he instead chose to attempt deception and never stopped contacting the OW.

This man has the problems that I mentioned above, as well. He spent quite a lot of energy avoiding financial responsibility for his children. He also could not show up on time to visit them, went weeks without contacting them, but at the exact same time was playing daddy to the OW's children.

This man has lied to and manipulated every person who has attempted to assist in this situation. His credibility is shot, because he has lied so often and on so many things - even those things materially irrelevant - that no person with an ounce of common sense or self-respect would believe him.

He has turned a blind eye to the pain he has caused to so many people - his children, his wife, his wife's family, the OW's children, the OW, and EVEN himself (although I don't think that he has yet realized how much he is hurting himself) that he has lost the respect of many of those people.

This man seems to also hold the delusion that his home is still with his W, even though it was he that chose to leave it. He doesn't seem to realize that he terminated his own rights in his W's life when he walked out the door. He even punishes her for HIS decision to do so, isn't that odd?

This man seems to feel that everyone should expend more energy 'understanding' him and his plight - which he chose for himself, brought on himself, and is solely responsible for - while failing utterly and completely to understand the plight of any others in this painful farce.

This man states that he absolutely cannot hurt the OW, while he has spent two years trampling on the heart of his W and children.

This man, btw, still seems to live under the delusion that he not only would be welcome at his W's should he chose to go there, but that she is still actively trying to get him to go there. He has lived under the delusion that she would always be there regardless of his actions for years.

I can't imagine what woman would want him. Personally, you couldn't pay me to take him, let alone fight for him.

If this story sounds familiar, then maybe you need to listen up. This man's W fought for years with no reassurance or any guarantee that it would work. She put her life and her healing on hold. She deserves to heal. If this man wants his W back, he needs to step out onto the ledge over the abyss where she was and at least give the same effort.

This man will get no reassurance and deserves none.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she seems to be moving on and in her words it’s non of my concern and I shouldn’t ask questions. Because I was the one who made the mistakes </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh, actually, no. It's because it is none of your business. You walk out for two years, you have no rights to know what goes on in her life, and her future and current plans are also none of your concern.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And so if she is going to divorce me what’s wrong with me moving on </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You moved on long ago. What you haven't accepted or recognized is her right to do the same. You also haven't accepted that by moving on, you terminated any obligation she has to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I decided to write the no contact letter and when I got back stay with a friend until things got better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Writing the no contact letter is one thing - but ENFORCING it is another thing altogether. Have you ever done this for longer than 48 hours? When you are supposed to be in No Contact with the OW, what do you gain by taunting your W with the fact that you are still in contact with OW?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After all this time she is still making every one involved pay and to be truthful that is what scares me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whereas the OW merely makes copies of receipts for Victoria's Secret purchases for Valentine's Day are sent to the W, among other things? Pots should not call kettles black.

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

When we went to the SmartMarriages Conference in July, I attended a seminar on forgiveness by Janis Spring. I've been meaning to post on this wonderful material ever since I have returned and only now have an opportunity to do so.

I know that forgiveness is something with which we all struggle, whether it be forgiving ourselves, our spouse, the OP, the friends that remained silent and enabled, the family that failed to support our marriage, etc. (If I'm the only one, please just let me know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

The following definitions and steps are taken from Janis Spring's book "How Can I Forgive You". Note that she asserts that Genuine Forgiveness can only occur with the participation and regret of the offending party.

Obviously, not forgiving is unhealthy for us. What can we do if the person isn't sorry (like my OP wannabe) and we don't want to harbor the anger inside us?

********************************************

Cheap Forgiveness - Cheap Forgiveness is a quick and easy pardon with no processing of emotion and no coming to terms with the injury. It is premature, superficial, and undeserved. It is an unconditional, unilateral, often compulsive attempt at peacekeeping. It is a gratuitous gift for which the hurt party asks nothing in return.

Refusing to Forgive - Refusing to Forgive is a reactive, rigid, often compulsive response to a violation that cuts the hurt party off from life and leaves him/her stewing in his/her own hostile juices. It is a decision to continue to punish the offender and reject reconciliation, even if that decision also punishes the hurt party.


(Just in case you haven't guessed, she doesn't recommend Cheap Forgiveness)

Acceptance - Acceptance is a responsible, authentic response to an interpersonal injury when the offender can't or won't engage in the healing process - when the offender is unwilling or unable to make good. It is a program of self-care, a generous and healing gift to oneself, accomplished by the self, for the self. It asks nothing of the offender.

Genuine Forgiveness - Genuine Forgiveness is a hard-won transaction, an intimate dance between two people bound together by an interpersonal violation. As the offender works hard to earn forgiveness through genuine, generous acts of repentance and restitution, the hurt party works hard to let go of his/her resentment and his/her need for retribution - together they redress the injury.

Genuine Forgiveness is conditional, is a transaction, and requires transfer of vigilance; therefore, it requires the offender and the hurt party to both be involved.


THE TEN STEPS OF ACCEPTANCE
Hurt parties should -
- honor the full sweep of their emotions
- give up their need for revenge but continue to seek a just resolution
- stop obsessing about the injury and reengage with life
- protect themselves from further abuse
- frame the offender's behavior in terms of the offender's own personal struggles (this is not to EXCUSE the behavior but attempt to understand what may have led the offender to take this action - you can understand without agreeing or excusing)
- look honestly at their own contribution to the injury (sometimes there may not be one - my childhood sexual abuse is a good example)
- challenge their false assumptions about what happened
- look at the offender apart from the offense, weighing the good against the bad
- carefully decide what kind of relationship they want with the offender
- forgive themselves for their own failings

CONCRETE STRATEGIES FOR LIMITING OBSESSIVE THINKING
Hurt parties can:

- challenge their negative thoughts
- question their habitual response to injury
- use medication
- use distraction
- learn thought stopping
- seek social support
- normalize their response
- use relaxation, visualization, and meditation
- apply stimulus control
- implement a program of self-care

There is a detailed explanation of each of these, obviously. It is all geared toward healing oneself and moving forward in a healthy and positive way.

I hope that this is helpful for everyone in our growth and recovery paths.

Takola,

Very harsh words indeed, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that I am the person you are talking about. Most of what you have stated is true and some of it is not, I don’t know what relevance a coat has to do with this however, if you must know my mother purchased the jacket. As far as my children go, I have never missed a child support payment or denied my children anything as far as material things go. It may all so be true that I have had many reservations about this matter and acted in less than admiral way but some how having you bash me in an open forum is less than helpful. In fact that’s the point I would like to make, most of the people that I know who have survived this type of upheaval how forgiven there partner, or at least been adult about the situation. Everything that you have written is about making someone accountable, that would be me, I do except that. You are right, I should have been a man about the situation a long time ago, long before another women came in to the situation. The point is I am not angry with anyone except myself for allowing myself to be weak and to get involved in this mess. Since you know so much about this situation I would like to thank you for your input as relates to my wife, letting me know that she would be foolish to get involved with someone like me. You are right, you know me so well, all the bridges are burnt and it’s time to move on. Thank you for the constructive and unbiased point of view, I was only asking if someone knew a good councilor I could talk to in person. I do get carrried away, I probably should have just asked for that. By the way you sound angry, maybe your not quite recovered yet

I can't imagine what woman would want him. Personally, you couldn't pay me to take him, let alone fight for him.

Takola,

Very harsh words indeed, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that I am the person you are talking about. Most of what you have stated is true and some of it is not, I don’t know what relevance a coat has to do with this however, if you must know my mother purchased the jacket. As far as my children go, I have never missed a child support payment or denied my children anything as far as material things go. It may all so be true that I have had many reservations about this matter and acted in less than admiral way but some how having you bash me in an open forum is less than helpful. In fact that’s the point I would like to make, most of the people that I know who have survived this type of upheaval how forgiven there partner, or at least been adult about the situation. Everything that you have written is about making someone accountable, that would be me, I do except that. You are right, I should have been a man about the situation a long time ago, long before another women came in to the situation. The point is I am not angry with anyone except myself for allowing myself to be weak and to get involved in this mess. Since you know so much about this situation I would like to thank you for your input as relates to my wife, letting me know that she would be foolish to get involved with someone like me. You are right, you know me so well, all the bridges are burnt and it’s time to move on. Thank you for the constructive and unbiased point of view, I was only asking if someone knew a good councilor I could talk to in person. I do get carrried away, I probably should have just asked for that. By the way you sound angry, maybe your not quite recovered yet

I can't imagine what woman would want him. Personally, you couldn't pay me to take him, let alone fight for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Very harsh words indeed, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that I am the person you are talking about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course it doesn't. It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who you are. Not only do the few facts you state line up, so does your MO. Your MO is to blame everyone else for your situation, and complain that no one quite understands you. You also have a tendency to portray your situation very differently to different people. I have come to believe in the time (more than a year) that I have had involvement in this situation that you are seeking less of a solution and understanding than you are seeking sympathy. Sympathy solves nothing, but it does make you feel good, doesn't it?

Reality is harsh. What you have wanted all along is to have both the OW and a wife waiting patiently - without dating - on the sidelines for you to return to if and when you please. You use both your W and the OW as a safety net, and you are unwilling to give up either one. The problem is that you own neither one, and it is not up to you how long they are there. It is up to them.

I'm not talking about your words, here. I'm talking about your actions. I am well aware that at times you can come up with pretty words and tell everyone precisely what they need to know - whether or not it is true - in order to continue your status quo. This is manipulation, pure and simple.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Most of what you have stated is true and some of it is not, I don’t know what relevance a coat has to do with this however</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The relevance is that you put off paying your child support in order to take a trip to England - ostensibly to sort out your head and end the affair - only to use that trip to do the opposite and indulge yourself. That is the relevance. The relevance is how you prioritize things in your decisions. In this decision, your children were hardly your highest priority. If the children were the highest priority, the money would have gone to them first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as my children go, I have never missed a child support payment or denied my children anything as far as material things go.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your child support payments could hardly be described as timely, now can they? What about missing paperwork on having your wages attached and that being delayed for months, in violation of a court order?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It may all so be true that I have had many reservations about this matter and acted in less than admiral way but some how having you bash me in an open forum is less than helpful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bash you? Hmmm...I gave you useful information on how to work on forgiveness and being forgiven.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In fact that’s the point I would like to make, most of the people that I know who have survived this type of upheaval how forgiven there partner, or at least been adult about the situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, let me take these one step at a time. To be forgiven, you must first be truly sorry. To have anyone believe that you are truly sorry, you must have credibility - which you have none. That credibility was destroyed by you - not by your W, her family, or her friends - you. Secondly, in order to be forgiven, one must stop causing pain and take full responsibility for one's own actions. When have you ever done these things consistently over a time period greater than two or three weeks?

Secondly, being 'adult' about the situation...I have yet to hear of an instance in this entire situation where anyone - that includes you, your inlaws, your parents and family in England, your W, and the OW - have behaved in a manner that I would even begin to perceive as adult. However, that is a judgement made. What you are saying is that your W does not behave in a manner that you equate with being an adult. That is a disrespectful judgement on your part. Can I ask you honestly how you think an 'adult' in this situation is to behave?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Everything that you have written is about making someone accountable, that would be me, I do except that. You are right, I should have been a man about the situation a long time ago, long before another women came in to the situation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will not go into defining a 'man' in this. What I do think is that you should have accepted responsibility for the consequences of your own actions and the resultant situation long ago and taken meaningful, measurable, verifiable steps to halt the pain.

Where is your accountability to your children? They are the only innocents in this situation, and they are suffering horribly. Your daughter is angry with you, and she acts out. She has been treated, not by you - I have no evidence pointing to you, but at least by your family as a bad person or something wrong with the child for being this way. No matter how smart she is, she is still a child. Moreover, she is a child dealing with a very painful situation that rocks the very core of what should be her stabilization and security point - her family. This is a situation that is not of her own making and never was.

You, on the other hand, (and we've had emails about this) seem to believe that her actions are somehow the fault of your W and her family. Now, I will give you that the situation could be handled far better on that side. However, for a moment, I will assume that you are right and they systematically tell her that you don't love her and that she shouldn't love you. Meaning, I will assume the worst case scenario.

No one can convince your daughter that you do not love her if your actions irrefutably prove that you do. Think about it.

Let me translate for you one of your daughters outbursts. Let's say she says to someone in front of you when you give her a present, "I don't want anything from that man!" in a haughty and sarcastic tone. What this translates to is, "I am hurting daddy. You aren't around anymore for me. I don't hear from you for long periods of time and I'm not sure you love me anymore. You left me, and I don't know why...Please love me, daddy! Please fight for me and make an effort."

How do I know? I've been in that child's shoes. Oh, my father never had an affair, but after my mother died we all moved in with my grandparents. A few years later, my dad remarried and moved out - leaving us behind.

I thought it had something to do with me. Why was I unlovable? Why was I so easily abandoned? Why did my daddy not want me? I hurt very badly, and I was angry at him for causing that hurt. I was resentful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The point is I am not angry with anyone except myself for allowing myself to be weak and to get involved in this mess.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's funny, from what I've read, it sounds very much like you are. You have a problem with someone - presumably your W - not being an 'adult' about the situation. I'm writing this at this time because my attention was drawn to the fact that you apparently think that your W or her family tipped me off as to who you were and you called up accusing them of such.

While I can admit that someone telling me who you are out here is a reasonable hypothosis, it is merely that. May I suggest that when you take issue with something I say, you contact me directly and deal with me about it rather than calling up and accusing your in-laws and W? If you do not still have my email address it is takola_mb@hotmail.com. Take your anger out on me, not on them.

Even if they did tell me it was you, and I assure you they did not, they have no obligation to you to not do so. They have no obligation to you to keep your secrets, and, therefore, should not be punished for not doing so.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Since you know so much about this situation I would like to thank you for your input as relates to my wife, letting me know that she would be foolish to get involved with someone like me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhh...you misunderstand me. The way you are now, she would be foolish to get involved with you. You cannot or will not, I do not know which, nor do I claim to know, protect her from your own actions. You will not protect her from the actions of OW. You will not enforce no contact with the OW. You protect OW's feelings far more stringently than you do your W's.

I like to follow logic. I don't know if I've ever told you what I do for a living, but I work with Software Development - aka programming. I like logic. Now, if you disagree that it would not be foolish for your W to get involved with you again, then please list for me the reasons she should get involved with you. What would motivate her to do so? What do you do now that would make you a logical and healthy choice?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right, you know me so well, all the bridges are burnt and it’s time to move on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have never claimed to know you "so well", but I do know your situation. I have enough knowledge of your actions and patterns to know why you are in the situation you are in. That, also, does not take a rocket scientist. I will wager, however, that I know far more about you than you know about me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thank you for the constructive and unbiased point of view, I was only asking if someone knew a good councilor I could talk to in person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the things I do not appreciate is sarcasm. I will not be sarcastic to you, and I would appreciate the same courtesy in return. I do know that the situation leading up to the separation was painful and that the marriage was not a healthy one prior to that. In that, there are no innocent parties, save the children. However, what you have failed to accept is that you cannot have a healthy marriage until there is no longer contact with the OW in any way, shape, or form.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By the way you sound angry, maybe your not quite recovered yet</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, there you go making assumptions. There has never been infidelity in my marriage situation. As I said, I know far more about you than you know about me. It is not because I'm unwilling to share, but rather because you've not asked.

Am I angry at you? Not really. I am frustrated. There are many people, some of whom you know and some you do not, that have put effort - both physical and emotional - into trying to assist both you and your W in restoring this marriage. As I said, the only innocent parties in this are your children, and OW's children. What is being done to them is what brings me the closest to anger.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't imagine what woman would want him. Personally, you couldn't pay me to take him, let alone fight for him </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This comes from logic, rather than from anger. Why would I, even if I were paid, invest physical and emotional energy into a relationship that promises to return my efforts with excrutiating pain? The emotional effects of infidelity are emotional torture, why would one willingly subscribe to that?

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

N,

Well I have to say that coming here and stating that you still live with OW and are reluctant to give W a divorce, you couldn’t have possible thought you would have been met with sympathy.

This is marriagebuilders, it’s where you try everything humanly possible to save your marriage. To admit that you have disregarded everything that you have been taught or asked to do and then expect “support for yourself” because your wife has simply given up and is ready to get on with her life is IMO pretty weak.

You have listed some of your wife’s faults and issue’s you have with her but Bub this isn’t about her. She’s not perfect, she’s made mistakes and you can’t control her actions. What this is about is you obtaining the strength to do what needs done. To either commit to the life you have made for yourself, divorce your wife and allow EVERYONE to move on or you send NC letter, mean it, abide by it and start moving toward repairing damage that you have done to so many lives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Yes, that’s right there has been times I have been ready to pack the whole thing in and just move on. However, I always end up not feeling comfortable, this last time around I did make what I considered a real effort to change." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What exactly is it that makes you feel uncomfortable? Specific’s like, Are their flaws in the relationship with OW that you are afraid will worsen if she has to meet ALL of your needs? Like what not being involved in your childrens life on a day to day basis is really going to be like?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems the nicer I am the more anger there is. Example, I came back from a business trip asked her if she wanted to do to dinner. All through dinner I felt uncomfortable, she felt the need to call me a snob and so on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think that if you were asked, no forced to put your life on hold, and live in limbo for 2 years that you would have no anger?

If I were talking to your wife I would tell her she should be respectful, not lovebust and I would mean it. I would tell her that nothing condones disrespect, angry outbursts etc. However in all honesty reverse the sitch and tell me with that you would not be angry with her if she had been living with another man, mothering his children, doing nice things for him rather than you and making empty promises of wanting to return without having the respect for you to do the actual work to come home?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This last time around I did make what I considered a real effort to change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly what did you do? Did you give your wife 100 % accountability? Did you follow through with the NC letter? What did you do to ensure that your wife felt 100 % safe with your situation? See I think there is a lot you need to step back and think about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as my children go, I have never missed a child support payment or denied my children anything as far as material things go.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where your soul searching really needs to start. Those babies are the only victims in this. Are you 100 % responsible to them? Do you pick them up at 6:00 (or whatever time) every other weekend and keep them until Sunday night? If your wife forbids you to take them to OW home (which I can’t blame her) do you make the EFFORT to take your children when you are suppose to have them and be a parent? That might mean getting a room for the weekend, coming up with a place that is yours where the kids can feel that that are at home with you. Please don't try to tell me you don't have the money, because IMO for your kids you make the money, even if it means you eat beans and rice and buy your clothes at a thrift store. You put YOUR wants and needs aside and you do what you have to for your kids.

As for child support I have no “proof” of whether you have paid or not but this goes so far beyond money that IMO that is almost a moot point.

I think the big thing here is material things don’t mean much, it’s love support them being able to KNOW without a doubt that you’ll be there. That they are 1st in your life. IMO you can’t have an addiction and put your kids first. The addiction always wins.

This is long and I hope I have given you a lot to think about. Whether you divorce your wife or not for the sound of things you have a lot of work to do on yourself. I hope you are up to it. If not I am very afraid you are going to have to hit rock bottom before you change and if you think your at bottom….you’re not even close. Wait til your kids call someone else dad, or if you have a daughter you have to walk down the aisle when she marry with her and another man…

Le

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Le ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that I need some professional help with these conflicts I have so if anybody could guide me to someone it would be helpful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, I know of at least one professional who has worked with you and spoken to you. What happened with that?

If you can make it work than God that it is possible to save your marriage. That is a true blessing. The possibility of saving your marriage is a gift. I wish I was in your situation.

The person I was working with is a wonderful hard working person who has come to my aid countless times. I felt as though it would be a good idea to talk to some one in person, I don't have time to monitor MB all the time. And to be truthful I don't understand how this whole thing works. Because I am not very good at exspressing myself by typing to people. So at that have a nice day.

stormydakota

I am not sure what you are talking about, why don't you be more specific. I stated in the beginning that my wife wants a divorce. Well, thanks for all the feed back it's been great I will try to respond to all this at the end of the day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I felt as though it would be a good idea to talk to some one in person, I don't have time to monitor MB all the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you say you don't have time to be on MB all the time, exactly what are you referring to.

This doesn't have to consume your every moment. You can post as much or as little. It's what you do with the info that's important.

What books have you read? You mention that you want in person have you checked into a MC that believes in MB principles? Would you be willing to counsel via the phone? The Harley's are great as well as Cerri.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And to be truthful I don't understand how this whole thing works. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I am confused? You work real hard at changing you, you learn everything you can and apply what you have learned to the way you behave everyday of your life. Because if you are looking at changing your W or even OW it's destined to fail.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Because I am not very good at exspressing myself by typing to people. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know I found this to be just the opposite, I could express myself here with the complete knowledged that I would never have to see these people (unless I wanted to). People here know more about me that most of my friends and family. It's safe, when you really start soul searching and growing this is an awesome environment to do it in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So at that have a nice day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well in all honesty I hope I have said somethings to ruin your day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I hope I have made you think, really think. I hope something I have said will make you be honest with yourself and I challenge you to answer my questions with the truth not what you think we want to hear.

Le

Le,

He has already spoken to Cerri, and this is the professional that offered to help him I referred to earlier.

NHMUA,

Honestly, you have been talking to people about this for over a year. It isn't more talk that you need to move you forward - it is action. It isn't what is or has been said about you that leads me to what I have said to you, it is your actions.

The anger cannot go away while you are still in any contact at all with OW. You know this, and this has been explained to you several times. Talking more about it with someone isn't going to change what you need to do, although it may delay you taking action. I believe at this time that more talk is doing nothing but giving you the ability to delay making any firm decisions or backing them up. It seems as though you believe that as long as you are talking about it and there is an ongoing dialog, procrastination with regard to meaningful, verifiable, and concrete steps can continue.

Anger is not a primary emotion, it is a secondary emotion - meaning it is a response to some other emotion - usually hurt. Because of this, I fail to see how the anger can possibly stop without the cause - the hurt - stopping.

The same brain chemicals that characterize addiction are in play with an affair. Your brain has a similar, if not identical, response to an affair as it does to alcohol, drug, and even porn addiction. Just as an alcoholic cannot have an occasional drink, or a drug addict cannot have an occasional crack-pipe, you cannot have occasional contact in any form with the source of the addiction - OW - and fully recover from it.

Until you fully recover from it, you do not have the full emotional and physical strength and energy to put into your marriage, as your thoughts and emotions are elsewhere. You cannot resolve typical marital problems or enter into POJAs until all addictions have been eliminated. Addiction is not a marital problem, it is a self-regulation problem.

Until you have full control over your own actions, you are not a whole person to enter into a marital relationship - with anyone.

Just for the record, as you seem to think I am on your W's side, I am not. I am also not on your side. I am on the side of the FAMILY and your CHILDREN. Because the only possible behavior you can control is your own, I talk to you about what you can do and I talk to your W about what she can do. (However, I must be honest and say that your W has not made inquiries into this anytime recently.)

As long as there is one person still willing to fight and work on it, then I will help that person. However, the caveat is that I will not allow myself to be an instrument in causing either spouse further pain. Therefore, nothing you say to me, nor even the fact that we are communicating, will be told to your W. I also have very little use for listening to people complain about a situation that doesn't change. If you don't change how you approach the situation and what you are doing; then, the situation has little hope of changing. You are caught in a cycle that you need to break. Only you can do this.

I also do not sugar-coat anything, nor do I equivocate. This does not mean that I think you are Satan Incarnate. I just do not believe there is anything to gain by pretending or painting things in a better light. Besides, a WS (Wayward Spouse) has the ability to do that for themselves in abundance.

Albert Einstein says it best - "The significant problems we face today cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."

An unknown person said, and is often quoted as saying, "The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time."

To break this down, let's examine a mathematical equation.

2 + 2 = 4

The result, 4, will always be the same until you change the components that lead to this result - either the first or second 2. To extrapolate this concept to your situation:

N's ACTIONS = RESULT

Result is a direct function of N's actions; therefore, in order to effect RESULT, N's ACTIONS must change.

Now, let's say a drought has caused your crops to wither and they will die if they do not receive water soon. I come into town and promise you I will make it rain that very day, and you pay me for it. The day comes and goes and no rain appears. I come back the next day and promise to make it rain that day, and you pay me for it. That day comes and goes and no rain appears.

How long will it take until you no longer are willing to invest in me (pay me) for the rain I have promised but never produced? Will it take two weeks? How about two years?

Sooner or later (probably sooner), I will have no more credibility with you and you will not believe a word I say. You certainly won't give me any money (aka invest in me). Will you give me credit for trying, or will you be angry and resentful toward me for manipulating you, taking your resources in bad faith, and preventing you from seeking another resolution to your problem that would salvage your crops?

Now, let's take this scenario one step further and say I then told you that you needed to work on your anger at me, that you shouldn't be angry, and that you should be more of an 'adult' about it...now what is the reaction? Are you ready to tell me to just sit on it and rotate?

In this scenario, however, I am not actually doing any direct harm to your crops, which is not the same as your scenario with your W. To get a bit closer, I'd have to show up everyday and trample all over your crops and be doing direct damage to them. So, let's add that part in. Are you ready to now hold a respectful negotiation with me about the rain? Are you willing to hear what you need to do in order for me to produce the rain, and all the things you have done wrong in the situation?

I find it highly unlikely.

So, now tell me exactly why your W's reaction should be any different.

You need to be by yourself for a while and work on yourself before you are ready to enter a healthy relationship with anyone, and this includes OW. You need to learn to fly solo before you take on a copilot, and you need to be ready to treat that copilot with respect, honesty, and integrity.

You are not there yet and will not be until you break the cycle in which you are trapped.

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

N,

I stumbled upon this thread...and recognized this situation while looking for something for another person I help off-board. As much time as I spend here....you didn't really think I wouldn't notice did you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Out of all things you wrote, I think I found this statement the most shocking: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My wife and I separated two years ago, that’s right can you imagine your life on hold for two years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"That's right?" Is this really what you think? That your life has been put on hold? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Even you cannot be this "blonde". The reality, is that the complete reverse is true...and if you want help...you've have got to come to grips with some of this "poor me" mentality. This didn't "happen" to you....you created it. You left. You moved in with another woman. Your wife cried until she had no tears left and spent almost two years of lonliness and rejection. You raised her hopes then dashed them repeatedly. You completely destroyed her trust and hope. She waited and waited and tried everything to get you home....good things, bad things, crazy things, rotten things. You have gone home to your affair partner almost every night for two years....while your wife's life has been the one on "hold". The fact that now, after all this time, that may be changing....is not too puzzling really...is it??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ....in fact she lasted far longer than most betrayed spouses in her place would have....that is a huge testimony to the depth of her love for you and how long it took before she was willing to reluctantly move on without you. Afterall, she's entitled to some happiness of her own if you want to stay where you are. Please don't turn these words around to mean that she's the one who rejected you....you rejected her...and you did over and over and over again....by choosing to remain with your A partner. You have never been able to remain out of contact with the other woman....why should that be okay with her? It would be a deal breaker for every wife. Is she a saint? Heaven Forbid! Nope....she's a fiery, emotional, absolutely crazy but fabulous woman...she often behaved badly...also not too puzzling under the circumstances.

What do you want N? Really want? If you want the love or respect of your wife and children the reality is that you can't get that while living with the woman who was incidental in destroying their world. They won't accept her...EVER...and they don't have to. Providing for children is far more than money...it's providing a supportive environment for them as well as giving them a model to emulate and look up to. It's impossible for you to get the kind of reception you crave from your family while you continue to hurt them and create chaos because you live with a woman who actively tries to twist the knife, sends hurtful things to her, and gloats over the fact that you are still with her.

You want their love and respect "first" when you've done very little to show them that you "value" them...instead you have continued to show them that you don't. You recently had ANOTHER huge opportunity to make this right...and I'm saddened that it didn't work for you. The saddest part of that is that I really do know that buried under all of this chaos is a pretty decent guy...I've seen him....who used to have the respect and love of tons of folks. I'm not sure that I've ever seen in my experience, a person who got more offers of help, from more different people, along the way than you have. Surprisingly, even your wife's family staunchly supported you in your efforts to return until it just became too embarrassing for them to continue to enable you to hurt their child. I'm sure if you want to talk to someone in person, that there are many professionals in your area who are trained to do that, and this board...even with all the harsh truths can be a place of growth if you have the courage to stay and be honest. But for pete's sake....start being honest...begin with yourself.

The "rules" you speak of...have always been that you end contact. The only place you can't take your children is around your mistress. You say whenever you're "nice" it gets worse....nice is a band aid on a hemorrage. "Nice" is asking your wife out to dinner or giving her a present and then going home to live with someone else. "Nice" is insufficient. In this kind of chaos both you and your wife have waffled between nice and nasty....it's been a roller coaster. Consistency OVER TIME...THAT is what will make a difference...that is ALL that has ever had any hope of making a difference.

What kind of "support" do you want? Support to do what? Go home? Divorce? Leave the other woman? What?

The first thing I would like to say is sorry for all the trouble that I have caused, I am not an idiot and I am fully aware of the situation. I have given this problem a lot of thought over the last week, and yes I have come to the conclusion. Not conclusion rather understanding that I did in fact start this whole thing and worse continued it on to the point that Kim wants a divorce. Yes, everybody is right, I haven’t done anything to relay fix this problem all if have done is prolong it at everybody expense. I have all so made accusation that MB hasn’t worked, the simple truth is how could it work for me when I haven’t even been strong enough to get over the first hurdle. I keep coming up with all these great plans, telling people how I have changed and how this time I am going to come through. The truth is I failed miserably, and that is the reason I have so much guilt. I could go on for ever like this however, I think that would be pointless considering everybody concerned thinks I am full of crap. Rightly so I might add, here is were I am at this point. I need to start building some credibility even if the out come is that I have the chance to be a great farther, if anything else happens that would be a plus. I need to talk to somebody in person who can help, “know yourself and then you will know your enemies”. My MIL said to me some time ago, what happened to you, you was the most trust worthy and honest person I ever knew. This is the real problem and yes I am sorry for blaming my wife, I lost myself in all this and that’s what I need help with.


I need to find myself again, I think the problem lies with that fact that I was a husband and a farther and some how through my stupidity I allowed it to slip through my hands. Example, I told my son the other day who is eighteen, that he had to get his life together and grow up his response was in so many words “what about you”.


Thanks for being blunt…….

Yes, why would anybody want me in there live when I can't even control myself. I don't blame my wife for wanting to move on.