How can I go and look at the string attached to Tough Love. When I try to look at it , it does not let me.

Thanks,
Stormy

Thanks. Never mind. It just let me in.

I wrote the moderator of this forum letting them know that we are having problems on our thread. I think we may have reached some type of size limit for posts. However, all posts prior to the last one on page 161 can be read. I'll let everyone know what MBMagnolia says we can do about it.

stormydakota, I copied part of Tough Love from this site years ago. I'm pasting it here, hope it's not too long!

The standard approach to marriage counseling is to teach husbands and wives how to revitalize unhealthy relationships and help them work through their conflicts. Unfortunately, such advice assumes that both parties are equally motivated to work on their problems. That is rarely the case. Typically, when a marriage is unraveling, there is one partner who is less concerned about the prospect of divorce, while the other is terrified by it. At its worse, as in cases of infidelity, the drifting member often has little desire to engage in counseling, except perhaps as a pretence to lessen guilt or criticism. He or she may have decided already that the relationship is over. It has been my observation that the way the committed partner responds at that vital juncture will determine whether the marriage will survive or succumb. I'll explain why in a moment.

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger” . . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe. If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship-focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface. Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the
cause itself.

The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on. Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc . Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential
customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!"

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest . If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish.

Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time. If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I
just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead."

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances-her grasping hands-any more. "But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure."

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious-that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme.

Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse: The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home! The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return.

Hey All,

I just now have been able to get back into this thread.

avondale... I believe your right about the memory size. I was getting error messages for the last two days.

LetsTry...

That's a good excerpt of the "Tough Love" scenario that you posted. In fact I'm using this very same technique on my G/F, as we are having some serious problems in our relationship of about 2-1/2 years.

I used it in my first "M", but was not successful... and my G/F wants to get "M", like right now, and if she doesn't get her way... then she wants to end the relationship. So I basically told her if she feels that strongly about it... it was nice while it lasted... "Goodbye"! That got her attention, and she is doing a complete 180 turn around. We will see how long it lasts.

I haven't really been able to read all the other posts, as I haven't been able to get in to this thread until just now.

I'll give it a try and hope it lets me continue.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

Ahhhh, what happened to all the previuos posts?

avondale...

You emailed MBMagnolia about this?

Have you found out anything about what happened to our thread? If your already on it... which it sounds like you are... let us know what's up.

We had some good stuff on there... I hope we didn't loose it all.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

Thanks I appreciate all the help and support. I have actually read the book before (I loved it) and was wondering if that was what the thread was about.

Thanks Again,
Stormy

Last night was the second night in a row that H did not call to talk to his kids. My D11 was getting upset and asked me if she could call him. My FIL answered and told her he wasn't home..that he was with a friend. She came back and told me with a worried look on her face. It seems that my kids are on edge about him going out because on his first weekend he told them (I'll never get married again, I might just get a gilrfriend, but not for a long long time")

I'm in shock..now he's going out with a "friend" i go in my bedroom and start to cry. My D11 tries to comfort me, but I shoo her out of the room..she shouldn't see me this way.

H finally calls her at 9pm. I hear her yelling in the phone "daddy who were you with?" "No, tell me..I want to know!" After a few more minutes of talking she hangs up and comes into my room. She tells me that when she asked him who he was with, he got quiet and tried to change the subject. She asked again and he again changed the subject. So she started talking about her dog. She went back to the subject again and he got quiet..she asked him "Daddy, were you with Dave?" He told her yes. She says she doesn't trust him.

I am almost at the end of my rope. Now not only is he lying and breaking my heart, he is now doing it to his kids. In my book that is not OK. He still has not paid me one red cent for child support of his half of the bills when he left. So I have decided with a heavy heart, to file divorce first. At least this was, I can have a court order him to pay. I really don't want to, but I feel I have no other choice. I also thought of just filing Legally Separated, and still have court ordered child support, but I am in CA I don't think we have that option.

Is filing for divorce ending my plan A?

Stacy
In my state, you can have a court order for child support WITHOUT being divorced. I would try for that before doing something that might appear so final to your H. It's still kind of early in your situation. Please see if you can get court-ordered child support WITHOUT filing for divorce. Can your family help with bills? There are other options along the line of AFDC, etc. that can help too, all without filing for D. So to answer your question, YES, filing for divorce effectively ends your "plan A".

EVERYONE - I emailed MBMagnolia at 10pm on Monday night. I also copied and pasted the error message I got. But I still haven't heard anything back. Could y'all try? Our original thread (started by Petvet) has too much history and learning to be shut down.

<small>[ March 02, 2005, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

Well I spoke to the lady at the legal services and she said that I could file for legal separation if i would like that better. Its almost idential to divorce, but we will be separated instead of divorced.

Its tight for my family as well right now. But why should they pay for something he is responsible for? He needs a little dose of reality with his sudden "freedom"

Hey All,

avondale...

I emailed Magnolia yesterday.

I haven't heard anything back either.

Hopefully they will get it taken care of. There are other threads that have many more posts than the "Tough Love" thread does. "The Kingdom" thread is twice as large as the "Tough Love" thread, and it's still going.

Maybe we should ask if they ran into this problem after so many posts. For some reason I don't believe that they did, but they might have.

Stormy...

The "Tough Love" thread consists of many people having difficulty in their "M", and how we all went about dealing with each persons situation. Not all are the same.

We have had some success stories, and some which ended in "D".

If it ever comes back... I would give it a look see, and see if there is anything in there that might interest you.

I'm sure there will be, as we have had many differnt situations going on at any given time.

Stacey...

It's very difficult doing a Plan A. from a distance.

By the sounds of everything going on... I would take avondale's advice, and my advice is to go into a very strict Plan B.

I only say this... because it sounds like your losing ground, and things are not getting any better.

I would also contact an attorney, and start getting things in order if in fact the Plan B. doesn't help.

Hope everyone else is doing well.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

<small>[ March 02, 2005, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Wallace ]</small>

Yes, I also think its time for me to build a strong plan B. Instead of a divorce, i am filing for Legal Separation to protect my kids..perhaps also to give him some of that tough love. I will begin to work on a plan b letter and post it here for comments before i send it.

Stacy,
I think you've got the right idea. Just take baby steps in this and don't jump too far ahead. While there are marriages that do recover after divorce, they are few and far between. Legal separation may be enough to jolt your H. We can use this thread until the moderators get the original one working, or at least as a "read only" thread we can refer back to. We'll be glad to give you feedback on your letter, too.

Thanks Wallace. I would definitely like to look at it.

Ok I completed my first task for the legal separtion..the paperwork. I had so many mixed emotions running thru me as I was checking the boxes...even though its only a legal separation it seemed so final..so official. When I was done, I got back in my car and cried.

Today I have to go back and sign. I think I need strenth. After that, because we are trying to waive the court fees it might take up to a week to approve and file with the court and a summons can be given. I need to pray for strenth this week.

Hi again just me needing to vent. Last night again H did not call his kids. My daughter didn't seem as upset this time. Today at work I get a message on my cell phone..its him leaving a message saying he wanted to check up on the kids and see how their day was at school and that he loves them and can't wait to see them when he picks them up tomorrow.

Oh this man bugs me! Why call now..in the middle of the day knowing I am at work and the kids are at school? Why not call them tonight where he can speak to them personally? My thought naturally goes to thinking that he has plans tonight and that is why he is making an "appearance" How is he so sure I am going to deliver that message to the kids?

I also decided to take my chances and send him an email asking if would have the money for the bills and kids after school care he promised me. I'm worried that email will never be read or even deleted.

Stacy,
Make sure your email is positive, and doesn't point out his faults. Keep to the facts!

* The kids need _______ (not "I(Stacy) need to get something for the kids")
*The electricity bill is 2 months overdue and $235 needs to be paid by March 7 before they cut the power off (not "we are behind in all our bills cuz you ran off")
* Son needs $30 for school tomorrow or he will not be able to go on field trip with his class (not "the kids need money to live")

I think you get the idea. This is letting him know what his responsibilities are. Have you informed him you are filing for legal separation? I wonder if you should give him advance notice?

I tried to be as pleasant as I could be. Just straight and to the point..buisness like.

I was advised by the lady doing my legal paperwork not to expose him to what I am doing. So I will be keeping it to myself until he gets served. I am also planning on sending my plan B letter along with it. So I am totally putting him in the dark. I think it will be a nice thing for me as well because now I don't have to stress myself on Fridays when I anticipate seeing him. It might make me detach easier that way.

Hey All,

I got an email from Magnolia, and it doesn't look good for the original "Tough Love" thread.

If we are lucky... they will be able to turn it into a "Read Only Thread".

If they can't do that... then the thread is probably going to be lost for good. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Stacey...

You got some good advice from avondale and the person your working with drawing up the papers.

You don't want to show your hand, and let them know what you have (old poker playing card term).

My exW was served at work while she was working.
I would of loved to have been there, just to see the expresion on her face.

As avondale stated... take things in little baby steps, and don't make any knee jerk moves.

Also stick with Plan B., things are not rolling in your favor and I think you need to stay the course with this.

There are no guarantees that thigs will turn around... but with no contact... it helps allievate the stress to a certain degree.

Well anyway... I wonder if anyone else realizes what happened to the thread?

Hope everyone has a good day today.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

Wallace,
I have emailed Relady, Trusting, and Leah. I don't have Petvet's email addy. Do you? If so, let him know what's going on too - he might be busy with tax season. I got the same info from MBMagnolia that you did. I wonder if a virus got posted to our thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

PS...How's the Plan B with your g/f going?

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>