Sorry I thought I was in reply mode and guess I started a new deal....

My suggestion.... It can be done. I have a few male friends that are just friends. These are exceptions not rules. Just make sure it's with someone who you are not attracted to and someone you could have no possible future with. This is scary territory because it can get complicated and I do agree with most of the advice you recieved. Granted bars are not a good place to be seen without giving the wrong impression but again as LH said, you can't control that. I used to be a businesswoman who frequently ate lunch out with men for BUSINESS purposes only. I sure hope no one thought the wrong thing but chances are that if we were snuggled up at the local Hooters... there would be a whole different story.

This thread bothers me. I guess because I am one who really likes to have male friends. Not lovers but friends. I enjoy talking about baseball and racing and home improvement ( go #48) Anyway, I know exactly where you are coming from and have been on both sides of the situation.

I have a dear friend who I would do anything for and I love unconditionally(like a brother) and I have never ever had one "wrong" thought about our relationship. It's hard to find and I don't expect many people ever do find it but it is possible. You have to know you and you have to make sure the situation is acceptable to both parties. Any tension at all ruins the fun. People will never understand. Most people truly believe in the "when harry met sally" theory. For the most part, I do too. However, don't be discouraged and miserable and withdraw from society just because you are not sure it is morally ok to have an opposite sex friend.

If you are having all these doubts you may not be ready to handle the situation of developing platonic friendship with men yet. It feels good to be wanted, not just sexually, but just in general to be listened to, to laugh, and joke around, to have someone care about you, think about you as a trustworthy friend, etc. No doubt these things meet emotional needs. No doubt that the meeting of emotional needs can lead to affairs. It doesn't have to but it can.

Just trust your heart. Trust God. Don't put yourself in wierd situations. Don't worry about what other people think because they will think whatever they want anyway. I've had people spread rumors I was dating the cable guy just because they were at my house 3 times one month. People don't care about the details (power company cut the line 3 times doing other repairs)... they only care if gossip can be started and something juicy comes along.

Be careful, but have some fun. If you are a people person, you will only fulfill that need by interactions with people. What type of interaction is totally up to you.....

I do agree with LH... give me a bottle of wine and I'm liable to do anything.... keep the alcohol out of the equation.....

Good luck to you and I hope you find a friend as special as mine is.

PP

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: peoplepleaser ]</small>

Spend a long enough time in a room with the opposite and something will happen....

SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN
SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN

Friends become friends and then better friends and then ... you know the rest.

Am I wrong... if you don't think about it the other will or vice versa.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nick

Without too many details.... I can certify, testify and verify that it is possible. I've spent weekend trips with male friends, hung out with a group of guys at Lowe's for hours, etc..without any issues.

As I said, it is a rare thing and not likely to be easy to find. Perhaps it goes back to my days in college where we all hung out, crashed in the same room ( and often bed) with males and NOTHING HAPPENED.. Perhaps I'm just butt ugly... who knows... BUT don't say it is impossible. I spent 2 days in Talladega one year with 200,000 drunks. Did that mean I had to drink.. no.. there is always a choice how to handle a situation.

I talk to alot people. I spend time with guys sometimes. I know which ones I can kid around with and which ones to avoid being alone with. PERIOD...

I totally agree that if IT HURTS doesn't already have this type of friendship established, it may be best to wait until long after her divorce to develop one. That way it is pure and not clouded by the sadness and rejected feelings of a failed marriage and the crazy feelings we all deal with when having Emotional Needs met again. I'm not suggesting that she "date" at all, but I also hated to see the concept that men and women couldn't be friends only. Maybe my male friends and I have become more like brother/sister, which is great with me. Maybe its because I'm in my later 30's. This theory could possibly be extremely false in a younger crowd.

just my 2 cents..

PP

Now if IT HURTS is a gorgeous buxom blond who is independently wealthy and feels a man has a right to come and go as he pleases without question and without a hint of responsibility.... then maybe there's a problem.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Of course it's possible to have opposite-sex friends - even close friends - and never have anything "happen."

Nick's statement notwithstanding, I don't think the issue has ever been whether it's possible. The issue is whether it's predictable.

Sometimes, for whatever reason, one party or the other develops "feelings." Sometimes one person's change in perspective seems to trigger the other's. (Knowing that someone is attracted to you seems to be a relatively powerful draw in many cases.) Sometimes Harley's love bank concept asserts its effects.

I have no idea what the statistics are. All I can really say with confidence is that it is not uncommon and that it is often completely unexpected when it happens.

Maybe IT HURTS is right that she has enough strength and smarts and self-awareness to recognize and stave off anything she might regret before it has a chance to become a problem. I don't know her well enough to even say I'm skeptical about that in her case.

It's just that the line between justified confidence and over-confidence can be very thin, and there aren't too many bigger predictors of failure than over-confidence.

Just make sure it's with someone who you are not attracted to and someone you could have no possible future with.
I'd be willing to bet that +25% of affairs start with people who "could not in any way be attracted to each other" and a future together would be an impossibility.

Besides, when affairs start, the future (let alone a future together) is never even considered.
If the future was considered, most affairs would never start.

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

I didn't word that well, that's true. Sorry about that. Maybe that was one of my own experiences and I didn't think that through. In my case, I was referring to a friend from church where our sons play on the same baseball team. He's about 6 inches shorter than me and several of our "outlooks" on life are so different that he is the type of person that is a good friend but you just wouldn't want to date and you wouldn't want would marry. Honestly if stranded in the snow and naked together..... NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN!!!!!! That;s just one example, of course. I do have attractive male friends but I also have self-control, respect for myself and a bit of commom sense as well.

Again, I better just shut up. PP

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
<strong> I don't think the issue has ever been whether it's possible. The issue is whether it's predictable.

It's just that the line between justified confidence and over-confidence can be very thin, and there aren't too many bigger predictors of failure than over-confidence. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you... Gnome... You could of saved me many key strokes had that been said earlier. That is basicallly my point.

I have been on all sides of this situation. I've been the one who has good female friends where nothing has ever happened. I've been a friend where, especially when my buddy Jack Daniels was around, I wanted more. I've had friends who've wanted more.

As I look at the friendships I've retained, only the strictly "friends" ones have survived. The others seemed to have fallen by the wayside when the feelings came out.

Bottom line for me, in the situation we are talking about, is if you're going to end a marriage or don't know if you're going to end it, then don't put yourself in a compromising position.

I know far too many people, many from these boards, who were betrayed spouses going through the end times of their marriage who "just wanted a friend to make them feel better" and instead got more pain. And IMHO it deepened/delayed their grieving process.

All that being said, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS. But more than likely, if you think you're going to be an exception, you usually end up finding out you ain't.

Oh yeah and PP, you're right 48 is a good number. 3 (best driver to ever breathe) times 8 (next legend)times 2 (amazing father/son talent) = 48, so I can dig it.... How bad have you got it? Boogity, Boogity, Boogity let's go boyz....

PP - Thanks for your insight in this thread..

I guess since I worked for many years and traveled for business w/men - though, I am no longer in that position, I feel that I can separate friends/potential lovers. Hey, we did alot of bar hoping/drunken nites, etc. YET, It NEVER was more than friendship/business relationship. And there were times when my at home relationship wasn't the greatest - yet, I didn't let my guard down. It would have been easy when out of town to cheat - I didn't..

And like you I really enjoy male friends - again, those friends/acquaintances that are "safe" - I'm very big on starting conversation w/any age of men. Whether they are 19 or 90 - I usually have "something" to talk about that's just fun conversation..Maybe I strike up conversations w/these no threat males because that's all it is is conversation and we both or several of us walk away happy. I'm not "thinking" about them when I leave.outside of that was a nice person..

I do this even in front of WH - there have been times when he's gotten angry at my chatting - but I totally view it as harmless. Since he's a serial cheat and may look at all women/conversation as his "next good time" - he can't see my side of my outgoing personality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It feels good to be wanted, not just sexually, but just in general to be listened to, to laugh, and joke around, to have someone care about you, think about you as a trustworthy friend, etc. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ABSOLUTELY..It feels good - especially, when you are rejected at home. It confirms that you are someone people want to/enjoy talking to. It confirms that we aren't the horrible person our WS is portraying us as..
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now if IT HURTS is a gorgeous buxom blond who is independently wealthy and feels a man has a right to come and go as he pleases without question and without a hint of responsibility.... then maybe there's a problem.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe because I am an attractive, classy women, w/financial strength(though not a buxommy as my younger years LOL)I can tell when someone is "playing me" and finally I know what I want, what I will accept and what I won't..I know who I want as a "friend". It's taken my WH multiple affairs to make me into who I am today. It's taken me seeing him use MOW/OW, play several at the same time - to gather my own strength..That I am truly above being used/played. To see these women as fools and I won't fall into the same trap.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I look at the friendships I've retained, only the strictly "friends" ones have survived. The others seemed to have fallen by the wayside when the feelings came out.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that's exactly what should happen if you are married or in a serious relationship. I don't have any "friends" that I've slept w/in the past. They are just that THE PAST.. If I run into them in public it's fine to catch up but that's it..

You see - I also see my WH who apparently can't let go of old relationships..He has to keep his past MOW/OW in his life by way of phone calls, acting like he still is interested in their lives, never really letting go. This is yet another reason why reconciling w/him would be very difficult. He always has "someone" in the wood pile.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's just that the line between justified confidence and over-confidence can be very thin, and there aren't too many bigger predictors of failure than over-confidence. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TOUCHE....

dang flood protection

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! My head, my head. Dang it, sure got hot in here. Ahhh, look ma..a maaan! Yeeehaww!

Dang it!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> There are only two types of Sex's in this world. Male and Female! Right??? So there going to be interaction...! So should we go way back when to where women could not even show their faces and not have any interaction with men? Or even eat in the same room with them? Or even worship our God in the same room because of temptation? Temptation will always be there. It is human nature. But do you have the will to curve it??? If you are vulnerable or weak. Avoid it. But most of us out there are not vulnerable and we remember our morals. OK I am typing this really fast. So I hope I am making sense here!

NOT ALL PEOPLE CHEAT! Amazingly enough there are people out there with morals. I used to work with a whole bunch of men and we'd go out and have a ball. As a matter of fact three women and a sales force of men. I had to say it was fun. Flirting? Oh definitely. But nothing went about it. As long as you don't make yourself "available" or give the wrong impression...be friends....!

Ahhh, blarneys to ya all! ??? That is coming from a Norwegian, Irish girl!! Yaa don't you know!

Back to cleaning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Lost my coffee again. Starbucks junkie in the making! White Chocolate Mmocha baby! YUMMIE!

Ali~

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

“””There are only two types of Sex's in this world.”””

Uhhhhh……… OK……. What is that good sex and bad sex?

“””So should we go way back when to where women could not even show their faces and not have any interaction with men? Or even eat in the same room with them? Or even worship our God in the same room because of temptation?”””

We don’t have to and up till now I don’t believe anyone has went to a totally polar end of the subject. There is middle ground and that’s where life is lived.

“””But most of us out there are not vulnerable and we remember our morals.”””

WOW! Really!!!!! I think that’s relative to the situation, the hour, or even the minute. Have you ALWAYS lived your morals? Have you never been vulnerable? Of course, not. And IMHO, that’s what these two thread have been about is that CAUTION must be given to these relationships. And to say IT WON’T or IT CAN’T happen, is borderline ridiculous. These boards are filled with people who would never cheat, but guess what, they did. Many of them put themselves in compromising positions with the best of intentions. Intentions don’t count for squat. We can’t predict the future. But we can know where we are emotionally and adjust our interactions accordingly. Sadly, many of us would rather not take the time to do a personal inventory of ourselves to really see us cause it could be scary.

“””NOT ALL PEOPLE CHEAT! Amazingly enough there are people out there with morals.”””

Yes… And they too get caught up in situations where for a short period of time, they loose site of that. Not all people that cheat are moral less martians. I happen to know several moralistic women, who after they were betrayed, lost site of things if only for a moment and BAM.

“””I had to say it was fun. Flirting? Oh definitely. But nothing went about it. As long as you don't make yourself "available" or give the wrong impression...be friends..”””

Oh no she didn’t. Ali, Ali, Ali…. Way disagree with you on this one. That truly is IMHO playing with fire, standing in fire, while lighting a match. May not be your own, but it has an impact. Since you talked about human nature, I’ll share my little human nature thought, people in relationship issues always progress, rather than regress. So for the sake of argument, let’s say there are 7 degrees of flirting before one steps over a boundary. If you flirt with ME to level 4 on Friday, do you think our relationship will maintain that or go backwards or go forwards. Well if I enjoyed level 4 and wish to go forward and you don’t then the next girl that flirts with me, I’ll take it to level 5, 6, & 7. It’s the “Butterfly Effect”. Your behaviors have negative and positive influences on other people.

You know another funny thought. I used to consider myself “flirtatious” by nature. Ask anyone here who’s met me, like CJ cause we’ve talked about it. But since I’ve become involved in a relationship, I’ve pretty much stopped that. Strangely enough many of the women that I used to talk to, don’t call me anymore, why do you think that is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LostHusband:
<strong>Strangely enough many of the women that I used to talk to, don’t call me anymore, why do you think that is? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um...you changed your phone number? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
<strong> [QUOTE]QUOTE]Um...you changed your phone number? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, it could be that since I quit drinking and I no longer slurrrrrr my speech, they may actually understand what I'm saying and are like <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .....

Who knows.... But the number is still the same and we need to catch up...

I could be wrong but I think the original question was "legally" I think ithurts only wanted to know if it would hurt her in any legal sense.I dont remember her ever saying she was "tempted" to have and A.She was only trying to avoid any tongue wagging that might cause a legal problem for her down the road.

I agree w/Ali 100% its all about temptation and will power.We are all tempted in life in all different areas,it is our freewill,and choice on how we handle the temptation.

Ginger - Yes, that is how the original thread got started - I was concerned if I was seen in public having a drink w/a man possibly on more than one occassion - if this could have any "legal" ramifications during/should I divorce.

And maybe I was also looking for an approval from BB members that know my story..That since I've been shut out, treated w/total disrespect, made into a fool at our business that it was OK to seek new friends male/female and be seen w/them enjoying life rather than sitting alone.

It may even be that I was seeking approval (I don't know why) to take steps away from my marriage, to move forward..That he's not coming back to our M, that he can't change..Maybe I just wanted someone to say - Hey, ithurts, it's ok..move on..let go..you need to get a life of your own w/o him..

I still miss the companionship of my WH, I'm lonely and deep down I don't want to let go of our M - I still love this SOB...I know doing so may be the best thing for me - yet, I'm having a really hard time. Knowing WH has this double life he's been leading for many years and I was "Just the wife" that I've lived w/someone for 12 years and don't know them at all, don't know their EN, SN, etc. and that they will NEVER open up to me but share these truths or lies w/someone else cuts very deeply into my heart and soul.

I'm trying to be self-confident,strong, not dependant on him for my happiness - and I guess I was just looking for reassurance here on this BB..

When his narcissist personality comes out - it deflates me - makes me feel that I do have it good (at times) and I should be happy/settle for that - because that's all he can give..and that what he said - He's the best thing I'm gonna get - is true ...

Maybe I'm just someone that always needs reassurance and It's OK from others that I'm doing the right thing..That's a weakness, I better learn to overcome..I should be strong enough, not to NEED to make everyone around me happy or to have my activities "approved".

HUGS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As I look at the friendships I've retained, only the strictly "friends" ones have survived. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">many of the women that I used to talk to, don’t call me anymore, why do you think that is? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because you are spoken for by a very lovely lady, silly! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All that being said, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS. But more than likely, if you think you're going to be an exception, you usually end up finding out you ain't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So true.

<small>[ March 12, 2005, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Ragamuffin ]</small>

Every one now and then needs approval No matter how independent we are. Think about it, it is a new beginning for you and you are unsure.
I still think it is ok. Leagaly that is. I just found out that affairs in my state don't mean anything. So I could not use that against him expect for mentally cruelity. Let me know when you need a kick, I'll be here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ali!

ITHURTS,
Ginger - Yes, that is how the original thread got started - I was concerned if I was seen in public having a drink w/a man possibly on more than one occassion - if this could have any "legal" ramifications during/should I divorce.
Probably no legal ramifications, although it may depend on the state you live in and whether you are separated (legally or otherwise).

It may even be that I was seeking approval (I don't know why) to take steps away from my marriage, to move forward.
You don't have to have anyone elses approval to do that. If you choose to do it, most everyone here will back you.
But most people here will also tell you if you choose this route (divorce), do it cleanly and don't get involved with anyone until it is complete (not simply filed).
Also, you don't want to do something which you may look back and and think maybe you shouldn't have done (started a new relationship before the old one is finished).

That he's not coming back to our M, that he can't change..Maybe I just wanted someone to say - Hey, ithurts, it's ok..move on..let go..you need to get a life of your own w/o him.
ITHURTS,
It's okay to move on. If you feel it is time to move on, then do it. MB simply states that you should do what you can to save your marriage and not jump the gun.

Most people think divorce is a simple thing. File the papers, get it over with and start a new life.
If it was really that easy, marriage, as an institution, would be a thing of the past.
I wish it was that easy. You still have to deal with all the feelings and those don't go away simply because the marriage ends.
And using MB principles are a way to ease yourself through it.

Chris - Thanks for reply </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you feel it is time to move on, then do it. MB simply states that you should do what you can to save your marriage and not jump the gun.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So easy for me to say it's time to move - it's another thing actually doing it..I have a very hard time making decisions and when I do - I need everyone around me to confirm that I did the right thing..

I do truly believe I have done everything I could to save my marriage. I don't have the strength to put any more effort into this. I can't absorb anymore of his crap nor accept his unacceptable behaviour.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most people think divorce is a simple thing. File the papers, get it over with and start a new life. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My last M - ended very easily. Yes, BH had a hard time w/it and I was merrily involved w/someone. This will not end easy. He will play me, he will use my good heart against me. He will fight me for every penny and then some..
The only "new life" I want is one w/peace, where honesty is of utmost importance. If I thought WH could give me this gift - I would stay I would make this marriage work.
If I was out looking when this whole mess started - believe me I could have found someone to have an EA/PA with - I choose to find strength within myself. To try and salvage what I "we" started - to not be weak like he was to find someone else.

I still can't understand how the serial cheat justifies all this in their minds? How a man/woman can have so many sexual partners and not have any guilt or shame? How they can live a double life and think they aren't hurting anyone?

OUr divorce will not change him - it will only change me..No man will ever do this to me again.

Filing for a divorce or even moving out - will be a horrific time in my life - one I definately don't look forward to..maybe that's another reason why I remain with him.

Sorry, I got a little sidetracked there - but, I'm having a really bad day accepting my life right now..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You still have to deal with all the feelings and those don't go away simply because the marriage ends.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyone I have met along the way so far - has been told right out - I still love my husband.
I'm sure he doesn't tell his MOW/OW that he still loves me.

Falling out of love is not that easy.
It's more that you just don't want to be married to this person anymore, regardless of what they do.