I'd like to use "Dr.J" as an example of someone who's 18 years down the road re: the OC. I'm paraphrasing what I read in the news.<P>I don't recall the name of the OC, maybe Angela? I'll call her A. A is a rising tennis star, her mother's only child. Her father is Julius Erving, retired basketball star, married many years (over 30?) and 4 legitimate children with W, all living in the midwest. A's journalist mother(XOW), though she complains of being poor, has gotten enough child support to live the last 18 years beachfront in La Jolla, CA--(read: money, money! La Jolla is the opposite of inner city in San Diego!!), send the OC to private schools and afford private tennis coaches. <P>News reports say some folks think poorly of Dr. J for having only seen the girl once, briefly, at age 3, for having no relationship to her.<P>Now, I ask those who have recently been posting to our board about how very important the OC is, how do you think this married man could have accomplished such a relationship?!<BR> <BR>Should he have spent time flying off to CA, neglecting his wife and 4 children, to spend time with OC? How healthy would that be for his marriage, Wife knowing H would be in XOW's neighborhood? Is she suppose to trust them together?! Do you think his other kids may have come to resent the time he was away from them? Or should the whole family of 6 flown to San Diego? Or should the OC have been flown regularly to the midwest?<BR>And how would OC have been accepted there? Would the OC ever feel like a "real" family member given her part-time status (see popeye's family)? How would the wife feel, looking at her beloved H's traits mixed with another woman's, the results of broken marriage vows? How would their community have treated the OC, their kids, the whole family? Is the stigma REALLY gone? <P>Can we instead APPLAUD this man for, having done the wrong thing, at least made it up as best he could to his family and provided child support to the OC? He has stated that he would meet with the OC if she wished, but she has not wanted that. (She has stated that she doesn't call him her dad, as that is someone who changes your diapers when you're little and such.)<P>One more thing, re: how dysfunctional are the men and women acting out in affairs? Do they need help?<BR>The news reported that A's mother(XOW) still sleeps in her daughter's room; A(OC) does not have a driver's license and does not date. At that time A was 18 years old!! Can we agree there are some unhealthy attachment issues there that could use some counseling??!! Just checking...<BR>Jenny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited June 01, 2000).]

There are and always will be times when the involvement of the wayward spouse with OC is not only detrimental to the existing marriage but to the OC as well. If in this case Dr J had pursued contact with OC (Alexandra Stevenson, great player) we know that it would have been hard on the existing family, but in my opinion it would have been hard on Alexandra as well.<P>Imagine growing up with everyone knowing that your father was Dr J. You might be cool at school, but the daughter of a famous person conceived outside of wedlock is a media event just waiting to happen. Just has it did when all this was brought out. She would have been scrutinized and followed her whole life as to some degree she will be from now on. I applaud the people involved in this situation not because of WHAT they did but WHY they did it. It was for the best of everyone involved, not just Dr J and his family, but for Alexandra and her mother as well.<P>I do agree that to some degree all children the are born outside of the marriage are dysfunctional. Not particarly the ones that have two people (mother and father) to raise the child, but more those that end up with a single parent, the OP. Single parents are becoming more and more the norm nowadays. And while some are doing well, it is not the way God intended for it to be.<P>P.S. When you say posting to our board, is that inclusive or exclusive to the ones posting about importance of relationship with OC?<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<P>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited June 01, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited June 01, 2000).]

Paul,<BR>Of course anyone may post. I was referring to some posters who are NOT in this situation but have posted that the OC should have both bioparents involved, apparently irregardless of what it does to people's marriages, and if the wife of a man who cheated cannot accept that, then she is the one in the wrong. I don't think those are healthy guidelines.<P>While I agree with you re:the publicity being bad for OC(thanks for her name ), I'd rather generalize this topic to what us average people have to cope with... <p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited June 01, 2000).]

Saw this title and couldn't resist. If I recall reading the story correctly. The mother wanted to get pregnant by a sports star for the "good" genes. She was/is? a sports writer and ran with the stars of the time.<P>This particular situation seems particularly sad, given that for all practical purposes this girl was a biology experiment.<P>JL

Hi Jenny!<P>My opinion -<P>I believe the marriage comes before the OC.<P>Paul - Isn't this biblical?<P>For those who are posting who are not in this situation - it's easy to see the OC as a victim. The OC is, but there are other victims - the children of the marriage and the wife - especially the wife.

Jenny: Okey Dokey!<P>CD: Yes it is to a degree. If you look, every aspect of our lives is covered biblically somewhere. But we as Christians can not and should not pull out parts of the Bible to use in our specific cases if we are not willing to accept and practice all the teachings.<P>Not to get flamed here but, if you read the Bible, what is the most famous "OC" of all? The man that raised him loved him and never questioned his birth...just a thought...<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Paul:<P>You must mean Moses. Right?<P>Because Jesus is NOT an OC. He is God the Son and was born of the Virgin Mary. <P>Mary's husband, Joseph, was called upon by God to care for His son, Jesus.<P>So, if you meant Jesus and not Moses, then I have a real problem with any comparison at all. The reason for this is that OC's are born out of adultery (6th? commandment) and Mary is not the Whore of babylon, she was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus because she was without sin. And Joseph was not a betrayed spouse, he was honored and chosen to be the head of the household, protector and teacher.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

Catnip: Not discussing the theological side but more the part where you said "OC are born out of adultery" My OC, my daughter, was actually born before I was married, but did not come into our lives until afterwards. So is she considered an OC? Many here would think so. I tend to think so. So why do they have to be born from adultery?<P>Also who said OP's must be whores? Some OP's do not even know the wayward spouse is married until much later. Only when they find out and continue pursuit of the relationship is there a true problem.<P>Finally, Joseph was not the father of Jesus, yet he raised and cared for him like he was, knowing the whole time he was not. You address the issue from what you know now. Think of how he must have felt, it even says that he was afraid to be with her because what would people think? He was just a man, with the same fears and concerns that we have. The child was not his, sure to us it would have been an honor knowing what we know, but he did not know and must have been scared. <P>I will discuss this more with you if you wish, but I must go wash my boys hair! <P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

And doesn't it also say that Joseph had doubts and also struggled? But he still acted as father. Also if this tennis stars mother is so crazy, think how much this girl might have gained by having her father be interested in her and involved in her life? Maybe she was her mothers biology experiement but she was her fathers choice to have sex with a woman other than his wife. She deserved more than just his money. She deserved it because he made that choice to have sex as an adult. I have not said this before but I gave a child up for adoption when I was a teenager. The only reason I could bring myself to do it was because I was a teenager. I could not have done it later. It's very easy for others to say that is the right thing but you all just think about giving your own child away. You can say you would but you don't know unless you've done it. I wish to this day I hadn't had to do it. But I really had no choice. The OC should not come before the children of the marriage but not less then either. I hated the way you said child of adultery catnip! Maybe I'm wrong but it sounded like you were somehow saying that this child was worth less than a child of a marriage in Gods eyes. My child, wherever he is is worth just as much as any child born in or out of a marriage! And so is this girl we are talking about. You know what I think? It's her fathers loss. A big loss.<P>Del

Delphi,<BR>As someone (finally) posting in favor of the H's involvement with the OC (other child, yes, child of adultery) PLEASE ANSWER the questions I originally posted!!<P>You offer your opinion, but no practical applications!! The problem is not the OC (other child--yes, child of adultery!) per se, but the fact the child comes with a mother and the mother does not respect the marriage. I'm sure my H is missing out very much in his other child's life, whom I'm sure God loves like any of us. My H and I both love children very much. But in a long-distance situation such as "Dr." J's, and many others on this board, there are very practical questions that go unsolved. Since you're advocating for the child, how 'bout coming off your high horse and solving these deliemmas for us (keeping in mind the equal welfare of the wife and legitimate children)? <P>Just how is this miracle of an involved long-distance father trying to recover from infidelity suppose to occur??! (also keeping in mind that most of us can't afford the frequent flier miles that Julius could have)<P>Your blindness to the impracticalities angers me no end. <p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited June 03, 2000).]

Jenny,<P>Your position that there can be certain impracticalities in both parents maintaining a close relationship with a child born to them has obvious merits. The Dr. J example is a good case in point. Whether or not the child is an OC, the distance limits the practicality of having a close relationship between a parent and child. What is important, however, in this particular case is that Dr. J accepted the financial responsibility for his daughter and has made himself available to her, if she would choose to see him. If Dr. J were living within a couple of hours or across town, there would be cause for criticism of his not being there in a more meaningful fashion for his child as she grew up.<P>Now, consider a different twist to the "marriage is more important than the OC" debate. Should an adulterous mother of an OC prevent the OC's father from having a relationship with the OC if she considers that relationship potentially harmful to her marriage to her husband? In this case, would it not be better, given many of the arguments presented in favor of the "marriage first," that the mother either give the child to the OC's father to raise or consent--along with the OC's father--to an adoption? As alluded to in a previous post, the mixing of features from the OC's father and the adulterous wife would most certainly be a continual reminder to the husband of his wife's infidelity and not be worth risking the marriage relationship. Obviously, there are exceptions to the rule. So far, I recall that K has been successful to date, but this is due in a large part to the father's not being actively interested in maintaining a parent-child relationship. <P>Thoughts please.<p>[This message has been edited by WJC (edited June 03, 2000).]

Delphi:<P>I, too, gave up a child for adoption when I was 20. I had no means to take care of him and at the time I was emotionally unbalanced and knew I would not be a fit parent.<BR> <BR>I did not get pregnant by a married man, therefore, my child was not a child of adultery. The OC that the OW had last August WAS INDEED born of adultery because she f***ed my husband while he was married to me, knew it, didn't care, wanted my husband for herself, demanded he divorce me and marry her, intentionally got herself pregnant, carted around an EPT test kit in her purse.<P>We live in the midwest, the OW and OC live on the east coast. OW has made it clear she does not want us to have contact with OC, says to just keep the money coming...that she just wants the monthly support check. <P>Let your heart bleed for the children of the marriage first and scold the OW for her blatant selfishness to subject the OC to a life without DAD because DAD has a family and lives hundreds or thousands of miles away.<P>Why couldn't she have done what you and I did when we knew we were not able to care for our child? My husband's XOW kept the child primarily in the hope that my spouse would reconsider leaving me for her, and if that would not happen, she opted for a fat support check every month.<P>I have met the young man I gave up for adoption thirty years ago. He is beautiful, well-adjusted, an achiever, adores his parents and came to me to thank me for allowing him to be adopted by such an incredible couple who nurtured him, loved him and made his life interesting and filled with God and wonder. <BR>He admits he wonders what it would have been like if he would have been raised by me and part of him wishes it were so, but then he said that he never would have known these wonderful people, had the close big family and had the opportunities that they provided. <BR>We have become great friends over the past 12 years and I have become part of their family. I respect their position and make sure I am not intrusive in any way and wait for the invite. As a result, they have me come to their home for family dinners twice a year and they are so generous with telling me about their son's life. I am blessed. <P>Catnip =^^=

Paul:<P>I do not believe that children born out of wedlock are OC's born of adultery if neither parent was married to someone else at the time of their conception.<P>I also believe that there are OP's out there who do not know that the person they are involved with is married. But, during my year on this forum reading hundreds of stories, I can't recall ever seeing that being the case, though I am sure there are exceptions.<P>In my particular case, the OW is worse than a whore, because she was warned by me immediately after their first weekend together and she proceeded anyway and deliberately got herself pregnant. <P>As far as demoting Jesus Christ to common status as an OC, I choose to beleive that Joseph was called upon by God to act as a 'stepfather' figure to the Son of God while on earth. There was no heartbreak or sadness when Christ was born, no disgrace or betrayal, only joy and promise. Joseph may have been 'scared' to have such a daunting task as to provide a home to the Son of God, but, he was honored by God with the privilege. He was never betrayed or a cuckhold.<P>To me, Jesus Christ should be exalted rather than reduced to common man, as He is anything but that. I certainly don't put Christ in the same catagory as OC's born out of adultery. That is just what I believe and how I see Jesus. Just another point of view.<P>I keep getting kicked off line so I have to close so my second try at this won't end up in cyberspace. My first response was more thoughtful and less 'clipped'...this time I have to condense and get to the point before I run out of time.<P>Catnip =^^=

I want to say first that I agree with Catnip, Jesus was not an OC. And I don't think it is right to even bring him up as a consideration for this topic, just my opinion. <P>Second, I truly believe that some families are better left alone. Granted my H and I do not want contact with the OC. But when I think about what harm that involvement would bring not only to my child but to the OC, then I know that the right choice is being made for us. That child is already two, has a established home life and family. My child also has that. Both girls are better left alone without having to bear the burden of this awful situation. I can barely stand it how would a child handle it. <P>Granted one of these days I am sure we will hear from the OC, but that will be handled by my H. I am sure that the OW will never give the full story. But it won't take much for her two daughters to realize that they are products of their monthers one night stands with married men. Needless to say that is not the best example for them. <P>I also agree with the fact that the only people "pushing" for the contact are those who are not in the situation. I want both children to be happy, tearing their lives apart is not going to make that happen.<P>babstr.

catnip and babstr,<P>You make good points about certain specific OC situations. Just as Jenny made the point about the impracticalities of a long distance relationship, your points about the manipulativeness of the OW and the problems this would cause are real. <P>The difficulty, however, is in what will happen to the OC, especially if left to a--in your words--"whore" to raise. When a parent washes his or her hands of the responsibility of the OC, that parent is only deferring some type of relationship with the OC to the future. If the OC's childhood is less than adequate--and possibly abusive--the abandoning parent will have to answer to that child. What will a parent say to a question like, "You knew my mother was a "whore" and you left me with her?" Answers like "My family and marriage came first" will not douse the resentment and anger of the OC, nor assuage the guilt that the parent will feel. It is hard to believe that this will not be hard on, or even destructive to, the marriage.<P>Absent adopting the OC to a good family, both parents retain a responsibility toward the welfare of the child. Whether or not deceived into impregnating the OW, both man and woman voluntarily came together in an act that both knew could result in a child. Both took the risk. Both bear the responsibility of that result. Unfortunately, there are times when one or both of those individuals are married to other people. That fact increased the downside risk of doing what they chose to do. It didn't relieve one party from the responsibility of ensuring the welfare of the child, who did not choose to be concieved. Voluntarily giving up that responsibility to the other parent is, without any question, abandonment of the child. Knowing the low quality of that other parent compounds the gravity of doing so.<P>Being the parent of an OC, I know full well what this responsibility is and the costs. Is it easy? No. Would I have avoided a relationship with the OW if I took time to count the cost to all parties involved? Absolutely. However, repairing the results of adultery (creating a new life) is not as easy as "washing one's hands" of the responsibilities and moving on. The same maxim applies to most situations in life, including bad marriages and unplanned children in marriages. <P>With all of that said, I completely empathize with the people who have adulterous mates and, especially, if that adultery resulted in a child. The mate, for whatever reason, met with temptation and decided to take the risk of yielding to it. The innocent mate and family now suffers along with the consequences, which were not deserved. The price of the decision to stay with the wayward mate, unfortunately, must include the OC in some fashion--if not now then later. Again, of course, the adoption route would significantly reduce the length of time the wayward mate would need to carry out his or her responsibility. The welfare of the child will have been prudently taken care of.<P>I hope this provides another respectable point of view to this discussion.<P><p>[This message has been edited by WJC (edited June 04, 2000).]

Sorry Paul - I have to agree with Catnip.<P>You said your wife had your OC before marriage so you were not betrayed - not a case of infidelity.<BR>The OW in my case knew my H was married but went after him anyway. In most cases ,if not every case here, the W knew the man was married.<P>The stories here are similar yet different. I think everyone should do what's best for them and the rest of us should respect this.<P>My H has partial custody so we have OC every other weekend. OW still plays "games" from time to time. As long as my H put us (our marrige) first, I can accept OC.<P>How can a marriage survive if OC is more important?

wjc,<P>I can see your point of view. Although I don't see how a future meeting with the OC could be destructive to the marriage. If the marriage has survived all of that time and healed to a certain degree, than a chance meeting with the OC will not destroy that marriage. Everyone here including myself who does not have contact with the OC knows that "some day" there could be a meeting. Whether that is at age 10, 18, or 30 no one knows. Yes, there will be anger from the OC, but not to sound harsh, will that really affect the family. <P>I truly understand the anger will be there, but I also believe that not every OC will feel that their father should have been involved with them. Now I say this from personal experience. My mother got married young, got pregnant, had me, and my father walked out when I was six weeks old, because he cound not handle the pressure. This was a full relationship, and they were married. My mother remarried, and my father today has always been there. Have I personally felt the need to seek out my "blood" father, no because I saw how my life was better not to have him involved. He never paid child support and he never bothered my life, that was a blessing. My mother had my name changed and I grew up with a brother and sisters, who know me only as their equal sister, not a half, and not a sister with a different name. If my "blood" father had been coming for visitation, etc, that would have fueled the fire of him leaving, and made my childhood uncomfortable. <P>Some children will come out of curiosity, and some children will come out of anger. But if the marriage has survived this, then the future meeting has already been discussed, and they will survive that also. That is just what I feel. I only shared my story to show, that at times the children grow up, and can stand on their own two feet. I didn't need to see him, and I never will. His leaving helped me, because he could have never been the right person to raise me. The only advantage that I had over these OC, there was not shame in my creation, and my mother is a saint, who met a wonderful man, who accepted me as his own. They had dated in the past, and things worked out for them, they are still together, and they are my parents. These women if they get out of fantasy land could meet someone, and that someone could love her child. <P>Sorry I rambled, got on a tangent.<P>babstr.

Thank you for sharing babstr. I agree,<BR>any child who misses out on a bioparent either wants to meet their bioparent(s) out of anger, out of curiousity, or not at all. I don't see that as a problem. <P>I have posted in the past a couple examples of grown OC I knew. Perhaps it would be good to post them again.<P>My uncle had a daughter of adultery 30-some years ago who he paid child support for but did not visit. My uncle, who was a great father to his wife and 4 kids with her, died when OC was about 10. In our family, only his wife knew of the OC until she contacted my father(her uncle) at age 18. We had her at our house, shared pictures and stories a few times over the next 3 years or so, but she faded away once she'd met her curiosity. She has her family and we have ours.<P>A young woman I met at college was the product of adultery. Her mother had died when the girl was 5; her grandmother raised her. However, she was very curious about her father. She respected if his wife would not want to meet her, but she had so many burning questions. She did not know his name, did not have a picture, nor the names of his 3 legitimate children, so that she was afraid she might date a half-sibling by accident. She was often asked where she was from because of her slightly unusual looks, but she herself had no answer of where she 'came from'. She wondered about medical data. There were so many questions that a simple meeting or two with her biodad could have resolved for her; it is a shame she couldn't have that.<P>I feel compassion for these OC, my H's OC, and all the innocents harmed by adultery. But there is still a limit to what we can or should do to help. <P>

Jenny, babstr and catnip--<P>Your responses to my query addressed certain circumstances where non-involvement with the OC was a positive. The fathers were either deadbeats or not interested in parenting, and the mothers were saints. If this were true for most cases, the negatives of single-parent families would not be so prevalent in the news today. You skirted around the responsibility of the non-custodial parent in a case where the child is being raised by--again in your words--a "whore" or someone otherwise unfit as a parent. It is totally unrealistic to believe, or even hope, that this child will benefit from not having a stable person look after his or her welfare. That responsibility belongs squarely in the non-custodial parent's court. To abandon a child in these circumstances makes the non-custodial parent as unfit to be a parent as the so-called whore. Ladies, you had better pray to God that this person is fit to be a parent to your own children. He or she already failed them by taking another partner in the most intimate way.<P>Secondly, to minimize the impact of the future meeting with the OC is naive. The non-custodial parent will face the reality of his or her failure in a person's life--how their sin of adultery was only the beginning of a ripple that marred other lives including their own child's. If a man or woman can disconnect so well from their own flesh and blood that it doesn't matter, then again that speaks to their character (or lack thereof) as a parent.<P>Thirdly, you didn't address the issue of the mother of an OC and her relationship with her husband. Should she give up this child for the good of the marriage? The lines of reasoning that have been espoused by a majority in the bulletin board would appear to say 'yes' to that.<P>It is very easy to understand why a spouse would not want his or her mate to maintain contact with the OC. Rationalizing that the OC should be abandoned for the sake of the marriage sounds noble on the surface, but deeper down that rationalization falls apart because of the responsibility issue. If a wronged spouse chooses to stay with the adulterous one, it must be with the knowledge and understanding that the wayward spouse has an obligation to the child as well.<P>Perhaps you are advocates of aborting a child under these circumstances. I don't have any idea of your views on this type of solution. It doesn't matter, however, if a child is actually brought into the world. When that happens, a corresponding responsibility is born as well. That is the reality of it all.

WJC:<P>Much of what you say is true, however, when and if the OW marries, she will marry a man who is already well aware of the existance of her OC. Therefore, he will probably accept the OC as his own as often happens, because, HE was not betrayed...it happened BEFORE he knew her.<P>If the OW is selfish enough to keep the OC knowing full well that the bio dad will not be there, the angry issues that will come when the OC is an adult will probably be directed at the OW for bringing them into a world of disadvantage.<P>I never thought I would ever say this, but, if the OC wants to have a relationship with my husband and it causes me or my children no heartburn from the OW, then my spouse would not have a problem with me.<P>As far as lack of character goes, of course there is a character issue or this would not have happened in the first place. The problem I have with all of this is that I never once ever saw a lack of integrity or character in my husband in 18 years until this happened. It shook my world. His too.<P>I am very sorry for the OC. In a perverse way, I have a bond with her because I feel that she and I are the innocents in this, and also because she should be mine...I am the only person on this earth entitled to have my husband's child. She should have been mine. And I have a feeling of love and concern for her...and empathy, but, unless the OW gets out of the way there is nothing much we can do for her except pay the monthly extortion.<P>The sin lies with the OW in many of the cases here. Our spouses have a financial resposibility to provide for the OC and many here are willing to open their hearts to their spouse's OC if the OW would allow it and not interfere and play games.<P>I do understand your point of view, however, and under ideal circumstances, your ideal scenario could happen in a lot of these cases.<P>BTW, I am amazingly still pro-life.<P>Catnip =^^= <p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited June 04, 2000).]