LSM,<P>i just want to say that i think you are handling all this just fine. it is such a terrible situation to be in. i often feel guilty because i am glad my H doesn't want any contact with the OC. like if i pushed him more, maybe he would. so i do ask him every now and then if he is sure. she is 2 1/2 anyways and he just found out about her. i think maybe had she been a baby it would be different. but probably not. <P>you and your husband have to agree on all of it. and if OW doesn't like it well, tough. she should have thought about that when she slept with a married man. like someone here said, and i frequently remind my self of, how many times a day do you think the OW feels sorry for what she did to us? to her child? probably not very often.<P>take care and hang in there. it does get better as time goes on. it always hurts, but you will become stronger. you are in my prayers.<P>happy_girl

LSM, I am a little confused. There are two posts in this thread that are from SoulMate. They sound as though written by you, but I was confused on the id. Sorry if I get confused easy.<P>Carolyn

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by takingcare:<BR><B>LSM, I am a little confused. There are two posts in this thread that are from SoulMate. They sound as though written by you, but I was confused on the id. Sorry if I get confused easy.Carolyn</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I saw that too. I assume they are sharing a computer, and the id is popping up.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoulMate:<BR><B>Carolyn, do you really think it's being selfish to want to be included in the OC life? I agree about not being able to be 100% of a father. But what if OW never does find another man to be a father? Or what if she finds the wrong man? Does my H keep his distance as not to form a bond but support OC until she does find someone? It sounds as if OW has no intentions on finding someone else. She's expressed she want's my H to watch OC (my H works at night and stays with our D during the day) along with our D. She has also expressed her allowing a relationship with the OC and my MIL. So it sounds as if she wants my H and his family to be completely involved in OC life. Is this type of life healthy for my D?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You and you H have NO CONTROL over what type of men will be in the OC life. Even if your H is around, he is not married to this woman & she will date, marry, etc. if she wants to & who she wants to. Worrying that the OC may not have even a partial father figure is not your concern. The OW made that choice. She was impregnated by a man that could NOT be there. If she is concerned about a father for the child she should go get married. Yes, I do think it is selfish for the man to want to be in the childs life. He should let that child develop a relationship with a full-time father. His involvement will just add confusion if the OW ever married.<P>I am also worried about what your child will feel & think about the OC. I know I am concerned about my two. I want to protect them from all this confusion. What will they think 10 years from now? Will they think "my dad screwed around so I can?" Not that I want to lie to my children & at some point they will know all this. But I just do not see how creating these mixed up family arraingements benefits the children.. yours or OC. And as you mention, you are very protective of children also. <P>Carolyn

I have not followed the whole story here but I think:<P>it's important NOT to knock those couples who chose to make the OC a part of their family or treat the OC in a normal step-child fashion!! Some people do chose to do so and do it 'successfully'. It can be pointed out to the children (when they are old enough to discuss it) that what the grown-ups did WAS wrong and hurt many people in various ways, but that NONE of the children (esp.OC) did anything wrong, and that not only can humans err/sin/whatever but they can also forgive each other and "make good" on their errors (repairing marriage and giving child support); that IS healthy responsibility! Seeing the OC CAN be done in a healthy fashion; i.e. by JOINT AGREEMENT between spouses, with minimal contact between those who cheated, with the support/advice of counselors, etc. I have seen it before.<BR> <BR>Having an active father in a child's life reduces their risk of juvenile crime, pregnancy and suicide, for starters. Yes, it is best if the father lives in the home but not all XOW marry/remarry. Some visitation goes smoothly; some visitation is horrible for everyone involved. Every situation is different! <P>I do believe in adultery cases the MARRIAGES MUST COME FIRST, but don't knock the couples who manage to save their marriage and still find room in their lives for the OC.

LSM: God bless you - you sound just like I did 3 years ago - and I my H wanted to support the OW emotionally and financially and any other way he could and just thought that "staying with me and coming home at night to me" and continuing to see her every day - would "divide up" his duties.<P>Honestly at this point in time - if I had to go back and make my decision again - I would have simply left. I'm with you - I wanted NO CONTACT with OC. I still think it is the wrong thing for the OC as well as the primary family - the wife and my case (our D). Like so many have said - the OC will never have with my H what our D has - and I think that will cause animosity. Plus - my H has STILL not realized that he doesn't have two (2) families. It's like one night he is with me and my D - the next night he acts to me as if he's working - and he spends time with OW and OC. (behind my back of course). My H (for whatever reason; psychological problem or whatever) is unable to be honest with me (especially on this subject). I probably should not have let him know how adamant I was about no contact - because now he tries to do what he wants wtihtout my knowledge and therefore he thinks that I will think he's doing it "my way". Even though - for the sake of our marriage and our D- I did agree to try to accept this OC (and believe it was a struggle at first) I can actually say - I don't have a problem with the OC (I'm actually really fond of the little guy - 1 1/2) However, the relationship between my H and OW and my MIL and OW still cuts me to the bone. I don't know if my H is still "seeing" OW - because of all the stuff he continues to do behind my back - I honestly believe he is - It's like he is living 2 lives. My MIL can never imagine the pain it causes me when I'm at her home and the OW calls her and asks if she can babysit OC, etc. She acts as if she is her "other DIL".<P>Basically, I guess, all this rambling is to tell you (from my experience) it is "possible" to have a relationship with OC and for it to be 'okay', however, total honesty is the key. I always feel like the 3rd wheel. My H will not agree to me being the contact - he says "OW will never agree to that". My answer is - so what, why does she get to call all the shots - but he lets her - and he saw the OC for the 1st time without me - lied to me for months and months - I always have to find out everything on my own.<P>It's terrible and I've asked him to leave and I can't get him to do that - because he wants me - but yet he wants her and the OC too - he is out of touch with reality. I can't believe anything he tells me - the OW and OC live in the City that we both work in and the OC goes to the same daycare as my D. The OW did WORK at the daycare my D was at - but has since changed jobs - which helped me a little bit- but I see her and OC a lot - and like you had said - looking into the OC's eyes (and I love children) remind me of the infidelity and the fact that this OW has given a precious gift to my H that only I should be able to give him.<P>If your H is committed to the marriage and to having an honest relationship - it can work - however, without that, I'm afraid it will only be a source of constant pain for you. I'm so very very very sorry. I would not wish the pain of this situation on my worst enemey (well maybe her, OW).<P>------------------<BR>

With all due respect to Daycare Disaster, who I know is also in a lot of pain, their attempt at including the OC was not done in a healthy or honest way, by NO fault of DD's! <P>I'll share a better example. Our own marriage counselor shared that his brother accidentally fathered an OC during a marital separation. The couple, who also had a child, got back together, paid child support, and had visitation at their home (WITHOUT seeing the XOW, who just dropped the child off) once or twice/month until the XOW married when the OC was 12yo. The OC preferred this new father who could be part of her family, and only saw her biodad-step-mom about once/year after that. Boundaries were healthy and despite a painful mistake it went as best it could. The OC and biodad did not have major nagging, unanswered questions about each other that total separation can cause.<P>I'm not saying everyone has to see their OC, but please don't generalize to saying it is always bad. <P>If the original poster's H cannot maintain good boundaries (he needs to accept what those are FIRST!! Will he listen to a counselor??) then he shouldn't see the OC. MARRIAGE first!<p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited July 11, 2000).]

Thank you DD and Thank you Jenny. Thanks to everyone. My H and I have been doing nothing but talking these past several weeks. Our relationship has never been so healthy. Which makes this harder. While I think I might be able to love this OC I'm not sure I could look him/her in the eyes and be strong enough to keep the pain from flooding back into my heart.<P>We start counseling tomorrow morning. I am taking Mike C2's advice and not making any major decisions until I'm ready. I just try to make it through each day.<P>I think about my life and how it's been taken away from me. I have been stripped of the life I built for 12 years. And I try to imagine what my life will be like once the OC is born. The fact is, this is not what I wanted for myself. As I'm sure this isn't what any of us wanted for ourselves. So I ask myself every day...Am I being true to myself by staying? I can't imagine my life without my H, but I also can't imagine my life w/another woman's child. I wanted to have another baby in the next year or two. Now I can't do that. I'm almost 30 and now may not have another chance to have another baby. How can I tell if I'm being true to myself? I know my H is lost. But I think I might be too. LSM

cyberhugs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>You are Grieving right now: shock, pain, anger, sadness, bargaining--acceptance comes WAAAY down the road. Healing takes time. Lots of time and work. I lost a baby at birth 5 years ago and I can tell you my H's confession of affair/pregnancy was on a similar LARGE grief scale. Huge, huge, huge!! Be kind and patient with yourself and don't make rush decisions. I've heard it said it takes 2 years to heal from an affair once both parties are working to save the marriage, and that's not counting extra circumstances like OC. <P>(The book "After the Affair" by Janis Abrams Spring really helped both of us--gives you hope of a way out of this nightmare, though it can't take away OC). We are coming up on 2 years soon and I can tell you I now have much more normal days, that I can be happy with my life and grateful I stayed. <P>Hang in there! {{{hugs}}}

Jenny, Thank you so much for the hope you have given me. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your baby. I don't even think this could top that type of pain.<P>I'll take your advice on this book. I've heard it mentioned several times. And I promise I'll try not to make any major decisions until I'm ready. Thanks for being there. LSM

Dear lostsoulmate,<P>You are feeling so much agony now. Take time just to heal. The pain of an affair and of betrayal are enormous.<P>I am in a very different situation from you, but one thread is similar. My wife had an affair, and our last child (we have several others) is biologically OMs. I didn't find out until he was three months old. In our case, No Contact meant all ties being severed between OM and both my wife and this child. It has been a rough year since, but our own marriage is healing and growing stronger every week now.<P>The one thing that I can share with you is this - when I look into my son's eyes, I do not feel pain or grief or the destruction of what my wife and I and our other children had shared before his birth. Even though he looks very much like OM. Instead I feel the kind of intense love I share with each of my other children. And his presence is a joy to me. This little boy, like all children, is a miracle and a blessing. Exhausted as I often am trying to manage babyhood and toddlerhood once again (we have a large family and I am trying hard to keep my job, all in addition to surviving the enormous pain of an affair), I have never regretted having this child in my life.<P>You cannot have any contact between your husband and the OW. I agree with you that that would be dangerous for your marriage. But a child is a child, a gift from God, and (barring the appearence of a spouse for OW) the baby will need a father. That your husband wants to support and care for this baby means that he is accepting responsibility for others, rather than running away, as so many people do. <P>One of my deepest griefs this past year was knowing that my wife carried this child to term in large part because he was OMs, and that she viewed him as the heart of their relationship. But feelings change with time, and now this wonderful baby is the center of our lives, as we rebuild our marriage.<P>This choice will not be easy for you. And now is not the time for any decisions - too much has happened, and it is too soon. But if you can find the grace and strength within to share this child with your husband whenever he or she visits, to hold the baby and love it, to buy gifts for it, to encourage your daughter to love her new sibling (all done as part of your family, and without OW, who should not ever be around your H again), you might find that you are not rewarded by an everlasting pain and grief, but by joy and love and self-respect that you cannot now imagine. And your H might recognize why he once chose you above all other women.<P>I had thought that we had the perfect family before my wife's affair. But families are made of people; they cannot be perfect, and they should not be scored or rated or compared. Now I see our family as a work in progress, and joy and pride come not from having avoided mistakes in the past, but from making something beautiful out of what we share now.<P>May God bless and Care for you,<P>StillTrying

StillTrying, you have given me more hope than I could have asked for. I'm so happy to hear things are working for you. For as much as it hurts right now I do see ways it could work and ways I could accept the situation. But it couldn't be without full support from my H and that is what I question. Not his wanting to do it but his ability to do it. I'm not sure he's strong enough to stand by my side and put his foot down when it comes to the OW. I'm afraid he might allow her to call the shots because he's not sure what the right answers are surrounding the other child and who should have the final say. How many chances do I give him before I say "I quit"?

Dear lostsoulmate,<P>I don't know how long you have been in this, and only you can judge how long you should try. But if your husband ceases ALL contact with OW, I imagine it could be 6 to 12 months before you can trust that this is really behind you. My wife asked for a divorce almost eight months after last contact, and then the next day said that she wanted to make our marriage work. And she has been terrific since that point.<P>Could you hire a mediator to handle all communication and arrangements with OW? I would strongly recommend something like that. Your husband should never speak to nor see her again, and you probably don't feel much like handling the communications yourself.<P>I hope that you have some close friends or family to listen to and support you now; don't ignore your grief, even though you have so much else to worry about. Had I imagined being in my position years ago, I might have thought it humiliating, but working through a crisis like this has instead given me a deep sense of self-worth, that is much more real than anything I had felt before.<P>One ancient rabinical teaching is that if someone saves a life, it is as if he has saved the whole world. As I struggled through each day last Summer and Fall, I would look at my wife, our new son and my family, and reflect that that teaching meant much more than just saving someone from death. It helped me see that what I was doing could have a tremendous impact on their lives, and the lives of all the people that they, in turn, would ever touch. That vision elped me to go on.<P>StillTrying

Dear lostsoulmate,<P>I realized that I didn't really answer your question directly. Your husband will be confused and erratic for a long time. But not forever. If you want to make this work out, you will probably have to endure some terrible times over the next year.<P>Since my own situation was so different, it is hard to give advice. I guess I would just go with the basics that you have heard.<P>No contact ever between husband and OW.<P>If he slips he should talk about it with you, and you should not explode.<P>All decisions about the baby should be made jointly by you and your husband. And here, the crucial factor will be that you work it out together, and that your husband finds in you a partner who will care about and love this child and seek what is best for it. That is easy enough for me, since OM has disappeared from our lives, but your husband's child will always have OW for a mother, and that will make things much harder.<P>StillTrying

StillTrying: Well he slipped. I found an e-mail from OW that talked about how she's going to need him once the baby is born. And that she will need to be in touch with him on a regular basis. He apparently told her he wanted to give me 100% but she askes then why are you still in touch with me and want to be close with me. I truely thought deep down that my H wanted to do EVERYTHING for us and that he didn't want anything to do with OW. But I find this and don't know what to think. Other than he's lying to me again. I asked him several times these past weeks if he's been in touch with her. He told me no. He's telling me now that she sent him an e-mail about CS and Laywers and he got scared. That he reestablished contact again to prevent her from taking this to the courts. He swears he has not seen her though.<P>It has been about 5 1/2 weeks since I found out about the affair and pregnancy. What's the cause for my H erratic behavior? Why is he so confused? Shouldn't he be able to ask himself what he wants and fight for it 100%?

Dear lostsoulmate,<P>I wish that it worked that way, but it often doesn't. Your husband is probably deeply confused, with his emotions pulling him in all directions. Some spouses return to their marriage knowing that they want to fight for it and rebuild. In my case, my wife wanted to divorce me and marry OM. That wasn't an option, and her feelings slowly changed as time passed, but that is what many of us have to deal with.<P>I don't know what your husband's position is, but I would guess that he is equally confused. If he can confide completely in you, and stop contact with her, then you can begin rebuilding. I wish that I could tell you otherwise, but you are probably at the beginning of a very long road. However, the end might be well worth the journey.<P>And remember, you know what you want now (mostly). He probably doesn't. That means that you will have to be the leader in many ways, and yet do it in a very gentle, understanding way.<P>Good luck,<P>StillTrying

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostsoulmate:<BR><B>He's telling me now that she sent him an e-mail about CS and Laywers and he got scared. That he reestablished contact again to prevent her from taking this to the courts. He swears he has not seen her though.It has been about 5 1/2 weeks since I found out about the affair and pregnancy. What's the cause for my H erratic behavior</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It sounds to me like maybe one of his issues is to keep this as secret as possible, as well. He may be teeling you that he fears the financial ramifications of a court battle....but what he really fears is this being aired in a public forum.<BR>

Mike C2, you may be right. My H says he checks the mail every day and wonders if he'll find a summons.<P>I think my H might have somewhat of a co-dependency problem in that he trys to accommodate everyone and make everyone happy. He does NOT like it when people think badly of him. He confided last night that he thinks he might be thinking too much about what everyone else will think of him. And he shouldn't care. He says he realizes that and needs to find out the words to tell OW to get lost.<P>My guess is his words won't be strong enough to give her the right picture. We had these same issues with his parents when our D was born. They acted like they had rights to make decisions where she was concerned and he didn't stand up to them. I had to myself. Alone.<P>My H also is not very in touch with his feelings about things and what is right or wrong. He continues to tell me that he wants me, our marriage our family but I'm not sure he knows how to make all this go away. When it could be as easy as you say. Tell her he doesn't want to have anything to do with her. If we want contact w/OC then we can arrange that together (all 3 of us). If she doesn't like that we do it through the courts. End of story. You may have to hurt some feelings to get your point accross. I can't get him to see that. It's funny. My H manages 30 people on an operation and he fights to the bitter end for his people. I wish he could take a stand that way with my and our marriage. I will call the laywer tonight and discuss with my H. He can tell her what he wants but at least we can be prepared and ready for a fight. Thank you for the advice. I've been searching for some direction here and you've helped me more than I can say. Are you sure you're not a marriage counselor? LSM<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostsoulmate:<BR><B>He continues to tell me that he wants me, our marriage our family but I'm not sure he knows how to make all this go away.</B><P>That is where you need to come in and set boundaries. If his primary goal is to save your marriage, you need to tell him wehere your deal breakers are. That will help focus him and remove some stress --you'll be doing him a favor.<P><B>I've been searching for some direction here and you've helped me more than I can say. Are you sure you're not a marriage counselor?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wish my W felt that way ;(<P>This site is sort of like a chain letter. You pay back us "veterans" (I've been here all of 3 months) by hanging around, reading up, and helping the next new poster in a crisis.<P>But notes like yours make it all worthwhile. Thanks.<P>Mike<BR>

I wish your W felt the same way too Mike. I'm sure some day she will. LSM