Hi DD,<BR> I was rereading your recent posts... I can tell that you are extremely torn.<BR> I have a suggestion. I'm not sure if it would be considered a LB, but I think that it would be a good thing to do. Anyone else care to share their thoughts on this?<BR> Tell your H that actions speak *much* louder than words. Ask him (for your sanity) to call OW, with you on one phone and him on the other. Read to OW a pre-composed no contact letter. Both of you can take turns, to let her know that you are an united front that she will not break. <P> Tell your H that if he wants to regain a smidgon of trust from you, that this is imperative. He must break off contact w/ OW. If he does this, then he may actually be serious about trying with you. <BR> OW's feeling are *NOT* the important thing here. Your family's survival is. If he is worried about her, ask him what about your feelings? Who is important to him? <BR> And if he says that he has to have contact with her regarding OC, tell him that you will make the ultimate (don't say ultimate, my words) sacrifice, and be the acting go-between. If she needs to discuss OC, she cqan go through you. If he still objects, tell him that his track record is pretty lousy... you need this for *your* peace of mind. You cannot begin to feel trust and love for him until he does *something* to prove his sincerity to you.<P> Well, what say you? I hope this helps.<BR> Mynabird

DD,<P>i agree with mynabird, but of course you have to do what you think is right for you. i don't think i could handle what you have been going thru. the 2 times my H has had to talk to OW, i hated it. but our situation is a bit different and i have no worries about him talking to her. he doesn't even like to. but i think your H has been unfair to you. if he wants to be with you he needs to put some action behind his words. remember the song "more than words to show you feel, that your love for me is real...what would you say if i took those words away, then you couldn't make things new, just by saying i love you"?<P>actions speak louder than words, you need to really sit down and talk to you H and let him know how you feel. what you have been thru lately is terrible and it needs to stop.<P>take care of yourself! <P>happygirl

I agree 10000000...% I feel this will be the ONLY way for me to be able to get past this. The OW needs to see and know that my H and I are a unit, a family, and partners. And your H needs to prove this most when you aren't looking. <P>I think this is the most reasonable request. I think this is the healthiest way to go for everyone involved and I think it's the only way for this sad situation to work.<P>Have you been taking care of yourself DD? Good Luck!

Bringing this back to the top... DD??? Where are you!? Hope you are okay!<BR> Mynabird

just bringing this to the top for DD

And back to the top...<P>DD, even if you didn't like my suggestion, that's okay <P>At this point, I'm just wondering how you are doing... kind of addicted to your story. I hope this finds you well. Who knows, maybe you are doing great. That would be excellent! <P> Mynabird

Sorry - guys- my D has been sick with strep and I've been out of pocket for a couple days. I'm just fed up! to the hilt. Spoke with OW Monday - she said she hasn't seen H since one day last week - but has talked to him every day. H went to Vegas for the weekend (selfish), that he called her several times from Vegas - called her on his way home, etc. She said they have still been intimate and he keeps telling her he loves her and wants a future with her - but that it's complicated with him being "married". She said that he keeps telling her to be patient. I asked her why would she want to waste her life on a married man - and she said - "well do you think that after 3 years that he is going to give me up?" And I said "well after 3 years do you think he's going anywhere - he's had the chance to leave and he's never left me." I hate him so much right now - he just came by my office to get some $$$$ and for me to see my D before he takes her to my moms and guess who calls while we are sitting in his truck - you guess it - the OW! Wow - and she just calls like she does it every single day and 15 times a day! He asked her "what did she need" like that would be the only reason she would call - and after they finished the conversation I was livid. I said - "you know, she calls you because you let her feel like it's okay to call." So either - she's gone today - or I'm gone. So I guess I'm leaving today and going to my sister's. I've tried everything - and perhaps I''m not in the best in the world about not lovebusting - but what the heck - I've got to get my sanity back.<P>Thank you guys - I 'may' try what Myna has suggested (I've wanted to do it before, but H is so chicken)he won't follow through with anything. I'll compose a letter anyway and let you guys look at it. He tells me all weekend - "I miss you so much - it's just not the same in Vegas without you here" And he gets me a nice leather wallet and stuff and tells me he loves me and wants to make it work and then this crap - he's just such a coward - I feel like he does want me - he just wants OW to to get fed up and leave him so he won't have to do anything. <P><P>------------------<BR>

Oh DD,<P> I hope your daughter is feeling better Mommy Love works wonders for sick kids.<P> It does sound like your husband is allowing the OW a lot of power in this situation... either he is still with her(behind your back, sort of) or he is a major conflict-avoider.<P> If he is completely against the no-contact call, then you must go to a Plan B. Going to you sister's is a great idea. She could filter calls and help keep him from you. <P> Good luck, hon. Glad to know you are still with us, well... even with these sorry circumstances. Hopefully, one day, we will all be a better place than this, emotionally and maritally.<P> Mynabird

DD I'm so sorry. I know you haven't had much luck in Plan B since you H won't leave. Like you said then you'll have to leave. But something's got to give. I feel your exhaustion. Get out of there and pick yourself up again. Beg your H to give you the space you need. If he cares for you the way he says then he needs to give you time. If during that time he proves he severed all contact with OW good for him. But he won't do it while you are still with him. Don't know what's going through his head at this point. But I wish he'd quit tearing you up inside. Start looking out for yourself and your D. If he's going to come around it appears he's only going to do it if you're gone. I know the feeling of exhaustion. Sometimes the stories on this board make me cry so bad I don't even have the energy to respond or post. Use our strenght DD. Choose your own path. It's up to your H if he wants to follow. I'm thinking of you. LSM

DD:<P>I am glad Chyna is on the road to recovery. And I am glad you are back...when you disappear like that we all get concerned.<P>First of all, one more time, it is NOT up to your husband whether or not he will accept your Plan B. This is YOUR call, YOUR decision, and if he doesn't like it, that's too bad.<P>DD, if he's been screwing Pitiful Pearl all this time, and constantly calling her from Vegas and leading her on and lying about his relationship with you, he is clearly enjoying the excitement of having two women and you are both willing to settle for crumbs and 'seconds'. <P>Don't do this to yourself anymore, DD. This kind of treatment is draining your self respect and shame on him for being such a heartless, selfish [censored] playing with your heart and destroying his family. I know as soon as you implement Plan B, he'll be crawling on his belly to you, saying all the right things, making all the promises that will be broken the instant you cave in and see him, sleep with him, come home, but he will tell you everything you long to hear because he knows you feel so desperate and so needy and then when you give in, he will not respect you and he will do it again! And Pitiful Pearl will be there waiting...<P>Can you really stand to go through this AGAIN? Isn't three years enough for you? Don't you really believe you are worth far more than this? Do you really think he's worth it or the only man on the planet for you?<P>This is the worst emotional abuse I have ever seen where one person is willing to take it for such long periods of time...three years!<P>If you implement Plan B, you will have to stick to it until each and every one of the principles are agreed upon; the Policy of Joint Agreement, Policy of Honesty, et al.<P>He will have to completely cut off all contact forever with PP and arrange a "go-between" to pick up and drop off OC, he will have to pay PP by check to track money paid, he will have to reliquish his cell phone or give you access to his records...and several other boundaries will have to be established within the time frame of your Plan B. For an effective Plan B, you cannot talk to him, see him, have any contact at all with him until he has made it known he is willing to do everything you have asked, otherwise NOTHING will change. He knows that when he says the right things and tells you what you want to hear, you'll see him instantly. Then because that was so easy, now he will say horrible things to you and treat you with nastiness and disrespect, because he knows he can...and nothing will happen.<P>Be mad at me, I don't care. I care about you and what you have endured and what your daughter is witnessing. You don't want to set that kind of an example for her because you don't want her to tolerate these things from a man when she grows up and you want her to have self respect.<P>It made my blood boil to read he's been screwing her for the entire three years and that he called her constantly from Vegas..<P>Please take care of yourself...<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

Great post, Catnip! Wow, you said everything that I've been thinking for the past couple of weeks...<P>DD, talk to us, hon. You know something? Your situation made me think of my sister. She is trying like crazy to get her fiancee back from another woman. They broke up over a fight a week after their engagement. A month went by, and he moved another girl into his house. My sister saw green or something, and has decided that no one will do for her except him. So, he is seeing my sis on the side, she is still wearing the engagement ring, and the other girl is still living with him. <P> He says to her that he just needs time. Meanwhile, two months have gone by. My sis is now on strong antidepressants. She went from 126 lbs to a rail-thin 102 lbs. Sick all the time, puking, crying. My mom is still recovering from cancer of the thyroid... and here her baby (sis) is starving herself and getting sick over this loser. He is leading her around by the nose. Tells her whatever she wants to hear, strings her along, and no action, what-so-ever. He reminds me of your H. <BR> Sorry about the long story. I'm kinda bent about these guys (and women) that just take and take, and do damage to everyone involved.<P> I'll stop, now. DD, talk to us. We are here for you. But, you have to stop this. Stop letting him hold the reins. Stop letting him make you crazy. Concentrate on YOU! Concentrate on daughter! Tell him that he can be in your heart when he grows up and starts acting like he cares about more than just hismself. No, don't tell him that. Do what's in your heart. It is your decision. Just remember... you DO have choices.<P> Take care, DD.<P> Mynabird

I really don't know what to say. And Catnip, how in the world could I be mad at you(?) Any of you . . . you all have been so good to listen to my BS forever!!!!! Just let me say this and then give me feedback - my H says that OW is lying to me just to get me upset and put her digs in because she hates me. He says he did not call her from Vegas - that she called him and calls him a lot and she won't "take the hint".<P>Why do I want to believe him so badly? Why do I see what is going on (and I'm an intelligent person) in most cases - but in this situation - I am totally thinking with my heart - why do I do that? You're right she and I are enablers - we are enabling him to get his ego fulfilled by BOTH of us allowing him to get away with it - I guess a part of me feels like that if I leave he will go to her and I'll never see him again (cowardly, huh?) I know that he has to want me for this to work - it just makes me want to vomit. I'm really down today - was going to my sister's last night - went home and packed - H acts like "everything is great". I asked him if he was going to call her and us do the "no contact letter" thing. He said "what is that really going to accomplish?" You'll be okay for a couple of days and then your "obsession" will start all over again and you won't believe anything I tell you. Yeah, after all this time of empty promises - I would be stupid to believe what he says.<P>I know that I need to leave - why am I still there? Why do I so desperately want him to do the right thing on his own and foolishly sit by until he does it?<P>------------------<BR>

Why? Because your heart belongs to him. But enough is enough. Three years is too long. Let go DD. For your own sanity. For your own happiness. Let go. If it's OW who calls then why doesn't he change the cell phone #? If he really wants her to stop calling hire an attorney to be the point of contact. That you will press charges if she attempts again. There are too many ways to stop someone from calling you. I'm concerned for you health. Protect yourself. It's time to close this chapter. Not to say it could never be opened again. But it would take more effort than anyone could imagine. I'm sure you would NEVER want to see your daughter in this much pain. Don't allow her to see you in it either. Good Luck DD. I'll say a prayer for you today. You will be OK. LSM

DD, no, you are not stupid. You just want what anyone would want. Their normal, happy, old life back. There is nothing wrong with hoping and wishing that someone would do the right thing. But there is something wrong when you are continually drug over the coals...<P> So, basically, he denies that *he* contacted the OW. But, he *is* allowing her to run the show, by still communicating with her.<BR> Next, he refuses to implement "no contact" call.<BR> Finally, he pokes you with the "obsession" comment. Never mind the fact that he is a BIG reason for the "obsession's" existance.<P> Your next move should be to your sister's.<BR> If Plan B failed, and he did go to OW, don't you think that would be better than being his door mat? Or *hers* for that matter...<BR> I have a feeling that he wouldn't stay with OW, at least not long-term. He scrapes and begs enough to prove that.<BR> One thing you could tell him... you didn't imagine him sneaking around to see OW a couple of weeks ago. He is the cause of the "obsession"... he needs to deal with it.<BR> DD, re-read Catnip's post, about what you need to do. Go to your sister's. Take care of you. Do Plan B, NO Communicating w/ H unless it concerns daughter. Let sister act as go-between. <P> He has no idea what life is like without you. He cajols and pleads and you fall for it... understandably so. You want your life back, sweetie. That is not a crime. But he needs to see what he is doing to you. He needs to realize that you will no longer be walked on, that you are insisting on being first in his life... and he has to tell OW to take a hike.<P> I understand your fear of losing him to OW. It is a possibility. But, DD, you would be soooo surprised at how nice life is without crying at any given time. Believe me (experience talking here) pain DOES lessen with time ( sometimes a lot of time.)<P> What I am trying to say (not so well maybe) is that either way, you come out on top. If he gets smart and agrees to do things your way, you "win." If he doesn't and continues with OW, you *still* win. Why? You get control over your life again, and can make a new start. Do you understand what I am saying?<P> ((((((((DD)))))))<BR> Oh, I wish... never mind. <P> I'll be here DD, along with everyone else who cares, anytime. <P> Mynabird

DD:<P>Ya know I loves ya, Honey. We are all so frustrated watching the abuse you are so willing to endure.<P>OK. Deep breath..there is no gentle way to say this, DD, but your husband is a liar. He's LYING to you. <P>There is his twisted truth and PP's truth. I am more inclined to beleive her although I know she is probably exaggerating to hurt you because it gives her satisfaction and pleasure. She is evil, he is evil. But I truly believe that they have been intimate the entire three years and that he called her lots, still calls he and uses manipulation and "buzz words" to control you, to shame you into given in and letting go of what you know in your heart to be true but do not want to face.<P>What your husband is doing is DISCOUNTING your feelings, your intuition, your assessments...as a manipulative means to schmooze things over so he can continue with having it both ways. <BR>Oh, I bet he loves looking like a big shot Shah with this mini-harem to his coworkers. His ego is and has been continually bolstered for three years coming off like he's this big stud...let me tell you, your stud is a dud.<P>There is something very evil about what he's doing, too. It's called "gaslighting" you. There was a movie decades ago called "Gaslight". A man decided to drive his wife crazy so she would go insane and kill herself and leave her wealth to him and to his whore. He would tamper with the gaslights in the house and creep her out making her think she was losing her mind, all the while pretending he loved her, discounted her feelings and claimed she must be 'imagining it" and that nothing was going on.<P>When she realized what he was doing and how he was manipulating her and trying to drive her insane, she realized that her marriage was an illusion and he was not the person she thought he was. She walked away with her self-respect intact.<P>I'm not saying there is not hope for you and your husband, or that he can't go along with the principles and the demands you will make through Plan B. I am just trying to make you see that, Like Mynabird said, you win whether he comes home for good or not.<BR> <BR>I know that if it came down to the possibility of loosing David forever, I would probably be like you...at first. But, I know that it would only be weeks or days before I would be willing to let him go, for my own self-respect. After all, if he didn't go along with my demands and I let him stay, he wouldn't have any incentive to stay faithful, he wouldn't respect me, probably not love me and think me a fool, and I would never know for sure if he ever really loved me and I would always wonder, always have doubt. If he does what you demand, you will know it's real. If he shows you the respect you deserve instead of discounting you, threatening you, screaming obscenities to you, mocking you and calling you names, you will know it is real. Stop settling for less than what you deserve.<P>One last thing, DD....Popeye once said that sometimes we just want to 'win'. How much of this is about you wanting to be the 'winner' and how much of it is because you love your husband. For me it was both. I wanted to be the victor, I wanted to be chosen over the OW. And so do you. We all do. But, not at the expense of your self-respect and the torture you have endured for so long.<P>Enough.<P>Love,<P>Catnip =^^=

DD I know it's hard to hear these words from so many people. Don't beat yourself up over it. We all care about you and don't want to see you hurting anymore. <P>Did you read the post about "Awakenings"? It's under "some inspirational...". If not read it. I'm hoping I'm experiencing my awakenings now. We know you can do it DD. Have faith and trust in yourself. LSM

Okay, okay, okay already - I'm going to my sisters. My H told me today - to "quit talking about things - he would show me by his actions that he is finished with her" (whatever). I missed my counseling session this week due to my D being sick and I think that is one reason why I'm feeling so down on myself. My H has a way of talking me into thinking that he's right when I know different. I guess 14 years with someone - they really know how to push your buttons.<P>Yes, Catnip, it is too about winning - I do love him (I hate him right now) but I also want to the winner! It's like I want him to choose me and then if I don't want him after that - fine - but I want to know that he chooses me. I guess that makes me manipulative too (huh?) Oh well - at least I'm honest. I know in my heart that he is lying because why would she still be willing to see him and sneak around for him and stuff if he is not promising her anything? Why would she had me so vehemently unless it was because she wanted my H? And when I told her that she needed to get a man for herself - - and then I still have this mental image of her standing with her hand on her hip saying 'Just ask your H what he does when he finds out I'm going on a date? He totally freaks out - can't stand the thought of me being with someone else.' I could honestly throw up right now. (that was her just now calling my office and hanging up - she does it all the time) (sorry)<P>Anyway I think I have the softest heart in the entire world. My H once told me the reason that my family 'abuses' me and the reason that I have no 'real' friends - is that I'm too forgiving - they know they can do mean things to me and I'll forgive them and they won't have to suffer anything. That's probably true to some respect - - (I thought we are suppossed to forgive); but I guess there is varying degrees. I guess I'm guilty of not having any boundaries (in that regard) just like my H has no boundaries when it comes to the sanctity of marriage. The last conversation we had today he hung up on me and told me he wanted me and he wanted me to stay at home, and that he would "prove" to me just that today! (yeah right)<P>What is wrong with me - I'm still sitting here waiting on some miracle so that I can go home to my home and all my things and have the life I use to have - I must be very mental - - No, actually, my H is mental. I have my car all packed up and it is a long drive to my sister's house - she lives some 60 miles from where I work - so I'll have to commute way far if I move in with her - which is another downside - ugh! I hate life - I really do. What did I do to deserve this - what does any of us do to deserve this? This is the worst pain imaginable. I told bimbo that one day she would get hers for all the pain she had caused me and my family. I know, I know - I just set myself up to be hurt by her over and over and over - I know - I'm even sitting there talking to her Monday telling her that she is too young to be sitting around waiting for him - he isn't going anywhere - she is just a play thing. I sit and look at her and think "she is so stupid!" Am I any different. She said "I wouldn't put up with the crap if I was married to him!" Man - I'm having a bad day - too many emotions - too much pain. Last night I left to go to my sister's with tears streaming down my face - with my H saying "do you need me to help you put anything into your car for you" (like me leaving is no big deal); and then my D crying her eyes out wanting her daddy and wanting to go home and I drove around in the rain and he called me and told me to "quit being silly, come home so we can talk about this" I didn't for the longest - and then on the way to my sister's there was a wreck and they had the road blocked so I had to turn around - and then ended up coming home. I slept on the couch and he was basically 1/2 asleep anyway so there wasn't any talking really - not anything that mattered. And then today he acts like - nothing happened - making plans for us this weekend, etc. He makes me think I'm crazy - but acting as if nothing is going on. Please, please, do you think leaving is truly the right thing? I know it is in my head - - - but I don't want to further alienate him. I cannot keep mouth shut and I have been badgering and badgering and badgering him since day 1 and have never truly Plan A'd. I 1/2 tried to - but would go through PMS and start badgering again - I truly think that during a 6 month or so time period he didn't talk to her and he was much more attentive and demonstrative with me and everything - and then something happened between us (an argument or something) and then wham - he starts talking to her again. I'm just emotionally drained - I know you all have been there and I know I'll probably be positive tomorrow - it's just today - I just have the blues something awful.<P>------------------<BR>

I have said it before.. this has gone on too long. Let me sumarize a few points:<P>1) he associates with a person who HE states "hates you". This doesn't sound too protective. <P>2) if she "hates you" and he hangs with her, when will she decide she hates you daughter and start in on her? Your H most likely won't protect her either from this sl-t. <P>3) he has taken no action to prevent this person from calling & contacting him. He either likes the contact, or likes the fact that it torments you. Boy, I hope it is the fact that he likes the contact and not the second option.<P>Actions do speak louder than words and his actions are talking to me! It would be very simple for him to get her in the place she should be. Change cell number & DON'T give out new one. Don't contact her. Get lawyer to write up detailed support & custody agreement & stick to it. <P>But I know all that would take a little effort at being a man & protecting his family. He wants everyone to like him & tries to keep everybody happy. Well that behavior is just too dangerous to you. Boy, you just don't deserve the crap he has layed out & neither does your daughter. <P>I hope I don't sound like I am lashing out at you. I wish I could say this to HIM! <P>Take care... Carolyn

Hi DD,<BR>Just a little note to let you know that I am thinking about you and you are in my prayers. You and your daughter are the only priority here right now DD. Take care of you and your little girl. You are much stronger than you think, believe that. Sending you hugs DD!

DD:<P>Print up this entire thread and leave it for him with a note that it is from all of us to him.<P>The power of the printed word is a powerful thing...perhaps if he READS your pain and sees what he is putting you through, he may realize the trauma he has caused you and perhaps shake him up a bit, make him be a bit remorseful. He should be protecting you.<P>A year ago, I printed up a thread, left it on the table for my spouse and left for the weekend. It gave him time to read, re-read and reflect. When I got home, there were many changes.<P>It is at the point where there is nothing for you to loose.<P>DD, you are so sweet and loving and sensitive. You want to beleive, you want to trust, you want to stay at home and be a family. Of course. We all want that...we want that for you...we all want to see your marriage survive. I am so sorry you are in such pain and I feel badly if I was too tough on you, but these things needed to be said to validate your suspicions and that you are NOT crazy, that your instincts are correct. <BR>You've been spinning your wheels for such a long time and it isn't healthy for you and your daughter to go through this any longer. I know you will be suffering huge inconveniences in addition to many other problems..I wish you could stay in the house and that he would leave.<P>I am so sorry, DD, that you are going through this and we have been encouraging you to take action, but it's time to do something. Let God guide you and he will protect you. I wish you weren't so far away.<P>You have my e-mail if you need me. I'll pray for you.<P>Love<P>catnip =^^=