yowsers, now i know why you guys need this place to come to, it must have been terrible on the general or just found out boards. people so judgmental although they aren't in your shoes. i am so glad you guys had this forum when i came, i probably would have been scared away if i had to post my feelings on the general board. have a good day. <P>happy_girl

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by babstr:<BR><B>ktgirl,<P> I figure if she knows that everyone thinks that she is a whore than she might think twice about going for number 3. <P>babstr. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Babstr,<BR> I seriously doubt that these women, the deliberate ones, care that people think they are whores. I think all they care about is themselves. They saw something they wanted, they went for it, the hell with anyone else's feelings, it's all "ME,ME,ME" with them. I would never do this to another woman in my life!! I guess it's all in how you are raised. I would never date someone who had been married to a family member, I would never date a friend's ex, I would not screw with a married man. I just have certain rules I have, and from what I see, these deliberate ones have no rules they follow except to please themselves. Notice everyone, that I am saying the "deliberate" ones, the women who knew the man was married. These are the only type of OW I am discussing here. I realize there are women who did not know the man was married, and they are not the ones I am referring to. I don't want anyone upset with me over not making the distinction. This discussion only deals with the "deliberate" b***h, who knew all along, and didn't care.<BR> Babstr, I think I'd go nuts if H and OW worked together. It'd probably be the end of my marriage. You must have incredible strength to deal with that. I don't think I can do that, I'm much too hot-headed. Good luck, and I hope he finds another job, for your sake.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by takingcare:<BR><B><BR>Well, I fell apart the other night & called. I was out of town all week with my two boys, taking them to visit my H parents. Spent all week there. When I get back he tells me the OW has delivered the baby & he went to be in delivery room (I had asked him not to do that). Then he says she has called several times & he went & visited with her & OC. That was just too much. I came unglued & ranted. I don't even recall all I said. I am still physically worn out by the episoide. Anyway, I called her... with him standing there. Screamed & yelled about why she was trying to harm my children. Told her that I prayed no one ever tried to hurt her child like she was trying to harm mine. Used several curse words. Came unglued. Told her to never contact my H again, or my lawyer would have her up on stalking charges. Anyway, it was ugly & actually it really didn't make me feel any better. Just sucked the life out of me. I don't know that it was productive & went against everything I have vowed not to do (allow the OW to poision my soul or attitude or influence my decisions in any way). <P>I am not sorry I did it, nor am I proud. I lost control & was so very angry that my H was over there visiting & bonding with the OC while I take our sons to visit his invalid mother. It just got too much. <P> <P>Carolyn</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Carolyn,<BR> I am so sorry for what you are going through. I hope you ripped into your H as well, because that was pretty rotten to do. He needs to remember the commitment he made to you and your children supercedes anything and everything. I can't believe he would be so insensitive. He's asking for trouble. If my H did that, that would be the end of us, because to me that would signal to me that he didn't care anymore about my feelings than the OW did, and if that were the case, they'd be welcome to each other. They would deserve each other. Notice, I am saying "in my case". I feel for you, and know that in any given situation, a person has to do what "they" feel is right. You are doing just that. Good for you. You are not a "raving lunatic", just a woman standing up for herself, and protecting her family. May God give you the strength to continue.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Delphi:<BR><B> Giving a child up for adoption is one of the most heart wrenching things a person can go through. What you all are suffering is just because of the OW, it's because of your spouses' actions. They are both responsible. Of course it would be no heartbreak for your H's if the OC was put up for adoption. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Delphi,<BR> Excuse me!!! We don't know heart-wrenching? Let me enlighten you a little. Heart wrenching is the man YOU ARE LEGALLY MARRIED TO FOR LIFE having an affair with a woman who KNEW HE WAS MARRIED, WANTED HIM ANYWAY, AND DELIBERATELY LET HERSELF GET PREGNANT TO TRY AND KEEP HIM!!!!! How dare you criticize us, and side with the OW. This thread was not started about forcing the OW to put OC up for adoption. It was started about "Confronting the OW". I know. I started it. I don't want her to put the kid up for adoption, never said I did. My husband made mistakes, but I am not trying to punish the child, in fact, if you check some of my other posts on this board, I have a very good attitude towards the OC, IT"S the OW who deliberately set out to take my man knowing full well he was married, that incurs my "well deserved" wrath. Nothing you can say will change that. The b***h deserves whatever she can get if you ask. and the only reason she did this was because she is too damn lazy to work, and now thanks to this, she has an income for the next 18 years, without having to do a thing, while I have to work my butt off to help H foot her bills. And she knows this. And I do have to help, because we are married, and what affects one, affects us both. Why should I feel concerned about her, she obviously is so attached to her baby that she hasn't found it necessary to quit drinking at the bar and using drugs yet? If you can't see where her head was and is at by that, I don't know what you need.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by happy_girl:<BR><B> well, no one knows what it is like to be in this situation until they are in it. and i wish it on no one. though it might shut some people up if they actually had to be in our shoes... would stop that judgemental, poor OW stuff pretty quick...<P>happy_girl<P><BR>Happygirl,<BR> AMEN to that. Poor OW my a**. She brought it on herself. Why should I feel sorry for a woman so immoral she would go after a man she knew was married, and so mentally deficient she would get pregnant to try and keep him. She knew what she was doing, let her live with it. And she should stay out of my face while she does it. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Delphi:<P>I apologize for lambasting you. You've been on this site before saying similar things and the buttons are pushed and you receive negative reactions.<P>I am curious why you lurk here unless it is to put the cat among the pigeons. You do not have a wayward spouse that has fathered a child while married to you, do you? If not, why do you come here and remind us what sh**s our husbands were? <BR>We KNOW what our spouses are and what they have done. We LIVE with the pain every day; ours and theirs. <BR>We do not need anyone telling us that our spouse are responsible, too. We KNOW that...but, that is not the issue. <BR>The spouses are remorseful and suffering, too. They are trying to restore, repair and recover themselves, often battling their own demons and trying to do what is right after doing such horrible wrongs.<P>I haven't forgotten nor will I ever forget what my spouse did and his roll in this entire mess, so you needn't concern yourself with reminding me/us. Just know that if you come here defending OW's or with concern for OC's or to tell us what sh**s our spouses are, buttons will be pushed, the reaction ain't pretty.<P>I shouldn't have been such a sh** myself to you earlier and I am really sorry. <BR>This week we filed for divorce and for bankruptcy. Just to protect me. <BR>OW tried to have me picked up on her phony Order for Protection against me because I was instructed by my attoeny to send a copy of our appeal to her via certified. It was a retalitory attack. <BR>The detective called our son who knows NOTHING about this. He called long distance from NY thinking that Jr was Sr...as they have the same first name. Now there are suspicions.<P>Oh yeah, one more thing...the courts refused to even consider our personal income tax returns and hit spouse (and me-I'm effected by this judgement hence the faux divorce and bankruptcy) with an order for a monthly amount just $300 dollars less than what spouse makes in a month. Can you live on $300 per month?<P>We have recieved letter stating that spouse's wages will be garnished, spouse will loose driver's license and spouse will soon go to jail. They fail to relaize that there is no money. Spouse spent 1999 and the better part of 2000 so far in treatment centers, crisis units, detox centers and was drunk and suicidal.<P>As far as the OW/OC is concerned, to quote Shakespeare, "I careth not."<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by catnip:<BR><B>Delphi:<P>I am curious why you lurk here unless it is to put the cat among the pigeons. You do not have a wayward spouse that has fathered a child while married to you, do you? If not, why do you come here and remind us what sh**s our husbands were? <P><BR>Catnip =^^=<P> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Catnip,<BR> Who is this Delphi? This whole thing had nothing to do with adoption, why do they bring that up here? (Delphi) I know what my husband did, and I have confronted him on it, my desire was only to treat the OW the same as I have him. I have never said anything about forcing to OW to put OC up for adoption. I may have at one time expressed the wish that she abort, but only because that's what H wanted. I have resigned myself to the fact that this child will be born. I don't blame the child for anything, it didn't ask to be born. My H and the OW on the other hand, are totally responsible for this mess, never said they weren't. I feel the OW to be slightly more at fault because she did concieve deliberately the child of a married man, in the efforts to keep him with her. Didn't work, and that is my greatest satisfaction at this point. I can't have my husband's child, I would also not be adverse to actually raising OC if OW is found to be unfit. How this all turned into a rage about adoption is beyond me. I would and will do, what I have to do, to make this marriage work, because I love the man who's last name I share. He's not perfect, nor am I, and I am not going to dwell on the imperfections, or I'd go nuts. I don't have to be reminded either.<BR> Sorry Catnip, I started out writing to you, but it looks like I ended up back at issue with Delphi. I agree with you, we don't need to be reminded. Do you know who this person is? Thanks. KTgirl<BR>

ktgirl:<P>Delphi has been around a while. I've read some of her other posts on General Questions and here. She's very intelligent and insightful. She obviously has some issues with us and our attitude for whatever reason, as we have our issues...whatever our reasons.<P>Ktgirl, anyone can post anywhere and give their opinions. I don't have a problem with that at all as long as no one cares if I come out with sixguns blazing. It can duel at OK Corral for all I care. She seems to be able to take it as well as dish it out and I respect that. We all have our own opinions and Delphi and others are welcome to post opposing views. The discussions can get heated, of course, because this is an extrememly sensitive subject. As long as we can all take it and respect each other, it bothers me not. <P>I like the debate, actually. I don't have to agree and neither does anyone else. It is simply opinions. No one is changing my mind on this subject, but I will listen to others' points of view even if I disagree. Possible motives intrigue me, though.<P>Catnip =^^=<p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited August 02, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by catnip:<BR><B>ktgirl:<P> No one is changing my mind on this subject, but I will listen to others' points of view even if I disagree. Possible motives intrigue me, though.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited August 02, 2000).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Catnip,<BR> I understand, and I also enjoy a lively debate. As you've seen, I'm not shy about firing a shot or two myself. Delphi does seem very impassioned, and also very familiar with her subject matter. I would never want to force someone to give away a child to hide the mess my husband made. That's not my choice, and though I will admit to a certain amount of selfishness on my part, I'm not that selfish. I've always tried from the outset to encourage H to have a close relationship with OC, even though that baby will be a constant reminder of the fact that another woman carried my husband's child instead of me. She felt the stirrings of life inside her that I never can. The waiting and wondering, boy or girl, the first ultrasound, all of that will belong to someone else. After the labor, she will stare into a little face and marvel at how much he looks like H. This is really agonizing for me. I have had children by two different men in the past, both who abused me and mistreated me to the point that I now still suffer depression and PTSD. Now, I have met the one man, who truly deserves that special gift, a child of his own to pass on his legacy, and I can't give it to him, but another woman may be. Nothing will ever take away that nagging thought in my mind. This is why I could never dare to impose my will on her. I love him, and I can't do for him something so important to me. He has always said that he never wanted children, and if he had, he wouldn't have fallen in love with me, because he knew up front I couldn't have them. At that time, I could have had my tubal reversed, but he said he didn't want to put me through so much pain. Now I've had further surgery due to fibroids, and am definitely sterile, no turning back. Still he is by my side. If Delphi is out there, I hope she reads this. I will swallow my sadness that this upcoming birth may bring, and put it away, so that should the child be his, and should he decide to have it in his life, that child will never feel unwelcome in our home. I will not change in my feelings toward the OW though. What she did was wrong, she knew it was wrong, and did not care. Why should I care for her feelings.

catnip wrote:<P>>>A priest once told me when I asked him what my/his/our responisiblity was to the OC. He said, "Your first and primary responsibility is to each other and to your marriage. It is the base, the foundation, from which anything and everyone else comes after. Your husband owes this OC nothing, except financial support."<BR>(end quote)<P>No offense, but as a protestant, I'd beg to differ. While you (as the wife) are completely innocent, so too are any of the man's children, whether they be by the wife or the OW. What's more, the children are the only ones that are also truly, completely helpless ... whether the wife stays or leaves, and regardless of what the OW does, any minor children are at the whim of the adults. Any children he has have 50% of his genes, like it or not. He produced them, regardless of who their mother is, and IMHO they all have just as much "intrinsic right" to him as a "father". Does such an "intrinsic right" exist? Personally, I think it does. But regardless, if any children produced by him do have such a right, they all do.<P>I'm also not surprised one bit at the attitude the Catholic church would take. A year or two ago there was an article on one of the newsmagazines (20/20 I *think*), which sparked a bunch of stories in our local paper when some people related to the story were discovered to be living in our nearby city. Back in Ireland, in the 40's (or was it 50's? 30's? ... some years ago anyway), the Catholic church was well in control of government policy. If a woman had a child out of wedlock (regardless of whether or not adultery was involved), the child wasn't entitled to an education, nor could he/she hold a civil/government job. Period. That's it, punish the child who had no say-so in his birth. Mind you, my husband is Catholic, but I take their "policies" with a grain of salt, as does my husband, since I told him of the earlier situation in Ireland. But then, I see telling a child they can't have an education because they were illegitimate to be on the same level as telling them they have no right to a father just because *he* decided to have relations with someone who he just happened to not be married to.<P>Well, maybe I don't belong here. I am "related," however ......<P>--Pearl ... a grown-up, religious, never-been-promiscuous, well-educated (thank got this wasn't Catholic Ireland of years ago), "other child" (gasp) who was raised with the love and support of both her parents. By the way, one more thought from this side of the fence (not meant to cause a problem, just meant as a data point) ... I've always been unsure what my half brothers and sisters know about me. It's even possible that they know nothing, given that a. they were adults when I was born, b. my father was already separated from his wife at that point, and c. it's too late to ask Dad now, as he has passed on. Over the last couple years, after having completed my education, marrying, and settling down, I've been feeling the urge to meet my brothers and sisters, and with the help of my husband, I may do so within the next few years. My point is that I have no idea if they've even been "prepared" for my "existence." Do they know anything about me? Will it surprise or bother them to find out as much older adults? I have no idea. Every "other child" out there eventually grows up, and does what he/she feels they must do.<P>Don't worry, I'll be leaving now. I'm guessing I've stumbled into where I shouldn't be. <P><p>[This message has been edited by ontheotherhand (edited August 02, 2000).]

dear ontheotherhand:<BR> <P>I hope you come back and read this. This letter is going to be written by me:<BR>Who is me? Me is a Woman who has done nothing wrong in her life, well educated, even has two masters degrees. I have never been promiscuos and I had a wonderful relationship with my H, until he decided to start drinking and became an alcoholic. EXCUSE ME but that was not my fault. My H has hurt me like I never thought somebody can hurt somebody, I rather be tortured and scared for the rest of my life than having to go trough what I go through everyday.<BR>That OW took advantage of an alcoholic, she didn't even know him, she was only with him for a couple months if so, she use to go out drinking with him while I was 8 months pregnant. She got pregnant herself and mind me not she could have been careful if she wanted. She had that OC in spite because my H went to AA, recovered and totally DUMPED HER if you can say that. Yes we are lucky BUT, the OC has NO RIGHTS, I do not care, my D does not know and when she is old enough I may tell her but believe she will feel the same way I do. Leave your half brothers and sisters alone! If they knew about you, and they have not tried to contact you there is a reason. People like you make me mad! If that OC ever knocks at my house when sjhe is older believe me I will slam the door in her face, yes she has 50% of my Husband genes but she has 50% of the OW/whore genes and she WILL NEVER BE WELCOMED TO MY HOUSE. I will make sure of that, you cansay what you want that is how I feel. If that OW knew that she wasnot going to get a penny from my H she would have never had the CHILD. Now you talk about morals? What kind of morals are they to get yourself involved with a married man who had a 8 month pregnant wife that you had met? I am so sorry but people who do that make me sick, so I am sorry you are the OC , and I am glad you are happy with your life, but don;t go and ruin other peoples life because of your selfish thoughts. <BR>Sorry if I rambled, but I really pray and hope that my family is left alone on this. ENOUGH SUFERING!<BR>I mean it , I wish for all those OW to leave us alone so we can recover.<BR>fambis

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I wish for all those OW to leave us alone so we can recover.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And when you do recover, Frambis, you may change your attitude about the OC.<P>I follow these threads with some interest, but it's sad to see such vitrol spewed on both sides. I believe as a general rule, the family (or marriage) should come first (as catnip has suggested---and other's as well). This doesn't relieve the father of responsibility for financial responsibility (and the Catholic Church, per se, does NOT support the injustice done in Ireland---but that's another story)---but the conception of a child under these conditions is less that ideal, and it's difficult to engineer a generic "win-win-win" situation for everyone involved. There are compromises that are made.<P>I also find it interesting that although I'm raising an OC, I never really think of my wife as an "OW". I guess she was, but the OM's wife was also having an affair (everyone but me). When the time is appropriate, my "non-biological" son will learn about his origins. I haven't a clue to when the appropriate time will come---I pray that God will lead me in that effort. There is no doubt that this child deserves love---all children do. But there's no reason to assume that just because an OC doesn't have bio-dad in their life that they're missing love.

I totally agree with you your case is a different and very special case, and in fact you are one of a kind person in taking such responsability.<BR>But if you read our postings you will realize that these OW are stalking our families and husbands. They are in a war on their own. They have chosen to fight for something that is not theirs and they have chosen us the "inocent party " as the enemy.<BR>They have disrupted our lives, our childrens lives and they have put some of us in a finacial caos that we did not deserve nor ask. We are all here hard working women and we are trying as much as you to keep our family together.<BR>But just because to people were irresponsible at one time (NOT ME!) that does not mean that me and my family have to now suffer financially, psychologically and emotionally. And by no means I should feel bad or sad about the OC, I did not have a choice, nor was asked about that decision, so why should I accept it? Why should I share my household finance with that OC? And why should I accept that OC? The OW made a choice yes it is called choice and she choose to bring a OC in this world, not me! Why do I have to support him or her and deal with him or her? NO WAY! NOT ME!<BR>I have no more anger that you probably have, but I did learn something about this whole experience, and that is to stand up to myself,my beliefs and my family. And you can write to me all these awfull things about anger,but the truth is that you have accepted your lifestyle , but I will choose mine!<BR>

Ontheotherhand,<BR> I, too, am Protestant, and I firmly believe in the part of our vows that "what God has joined together, let no man rip asunder". If the continuing presence of an OC in a marriage would rip it apart (in addition to the damage done by the affair in the first place) then that child should not receive any more than legal support.<BR> I thank God daily that there was no OC from my H's affair(s). It's a miracle, considering that he used no protection and is so darned fertile. Given that we had buried two stillborn daughters (the last less than 2 years before the interlude with the STD Tramp) and miscarried 6 other babies, if another woman had given birth to my H's child--a child I had wanted so very much, it would have been the last straw. I really don't think I could have dealt with the situation. And, you know something? My H didn't give 2 hoots about the STD Tramp; she was just a whore who screwed anybody and everybody she could pick up in beer joints. He would have supported the child, if one had been produced, but would probably have wanted custody if he had anything at all to do with the child. Could I have handled something like that? I don't know. I'd like to believe that I could be a big enough woman to raise my H's child by another woman, but I don't know if I could live with the pain.<P>Leave your half-siblings alone. They would probably react as my H's cousin did when her father's OC showed up at the funeral home. Why set yourself up for that pain?

Frambis:<P>I seem to remember an old story about a very good man who ended up nailed to a cross. He did nothing to deserve the torture, ridicule, and disrespect---but yet he was able to offer His forgiveness to them.<P>I have no idea if you profess to be Christian, but if you do, then your words and deeds are inconsistant with the faith.I did stand up for my beliefs, my lifestyle, and my family. It's surprising how hard the Christian faith can be when you really try to practice it---but it can be very rewarding too. So, what lifestyle will you choose?

ontheotherhand: Your opinions are welcome and so are you. Regardless whether or not we agree (that is not important) your point of view is food for thought. Just know that when you post your opinions the people here are raw with an indescribable pain and will probably meet your opinions with their own harsh realities. Depending on where each of us are in our recovery, dictates the degree of forgiveness and acceptance. I felt as Fambis does a year ago. I have progressed only very slightly since then. perhaps in five years I may feel differently. Your comments may be a catalyst for a tsunami of negative reaction, just so you know. I hope you understand.<P>K: Fambis is very likely a Christian in pain, as many of us are here on this site. When the wounds heal in time, perhaps Christ's example will lead us to more charitable thoughts and actions. Most of us here have only been dealing with this within the past year or two and something to this magnitude has such long lasting repercussions...like twenty plus years. <BR>I think those of us who have been lucky enough to have Christ's spirit within us (I admit I am excluded in this right now) in dealing with this horrendous situation can be understanding towards others less 'evolved' as Christ would be for this awful circumstance and the pain we endure.<P>To all: This is a very inflamatory subject. There are several points of view. I know we tend to be inclusive in our pain by not welcoming those who are not on the receiving end of this particular pain. However, in order to learn and to understand, let's listen to all who come here and debate with them and not get too nuts over hearing things that go against our pain...er, I mean grain. I am going to try to lighten up and listen, though I know me and will probably get militant as usual when the right buttons are pushed.<P>You are sll such wonderful people in pain with so much love in your hearts. The horrible situation brings out the worst and the best in us. I have said things here that I never ever could have or would have said in any other situation. Sometimes I am appalled by my lack of charity. However, it is how I feel at the time. I want to lash out and steamroll any opposition. It is human nature. But I don't want to scare away those who do not have OC's in their lives because I might learn something from their pigheaded opinion (just kidding-a little levity). <P>There are no rules for this site. Anyone can post and say what is on their mind and in their heart. They just better come well-suited in armor because we are raw! <P>No name calling, play fair and take a deep breath.<P>Catnip =^^=

I also know that it is very funny that people talk in behalf of God, and judge on his behalf.<P> I am not judging you, why are you judging me? You are in a total different situation than we are. <P> Just because you accepted this OC in your life does not mean that everybody else should , that does not make you more of a Christian than anybody else. <P>fambis<BR>

I also agree with catnip, we are here to talk, debate and express our opinions not to accuse anybody of anything.<P>But like catnip said, if you push the right buttons you may get a different response.<BR>I admire the ones who have taken the OC in their lives, but that does not make the other ones who did not less. That was my point.<P>I believe the same thing as catnip, maybe in a couple of years I will feel differently, but at this time this is how I feel. I like this site because I can express myself and I feel like we all understand each other.<P>If somebody else has an opinion that is fine, but if somebody is writing in this site just to hurt us, well that is not right.<P>fambis

I am a Christian but I was an OW. Maybe some of your H's are christians but they still committed adultery. I have told my H about my daughter that I gave up for adoption. I consider her biological father to a very bad person, a person who took advantage of a young girl, me at 15. He destroyed my highschool years and walked away without a care about it. My first baby wasn't really my first baby. I lost my first baby. And I know my daughter has 1/2 of that mans genes. But she also has 1/2 mine. And I not only won't turn her away from my door I pray every day that she will come so I can open it for her. And my H totally supports me in this and he prays with me for this to happen some day. The sins of the fathers (your husbands and the OWs because the did both sin) shouldn't be visited on the children. <P>Also I know that I was an OW but I know I am not a bad and evil person. I know I strayed and sinned but I also know that I am a good person who has asked for and been given Gods forgivness. Why is it that every single OW with an OC on this board seems to be an evil monster? Isn't it possible that they are not as evil as all that but you hate them just because your husband chose to have sex with them and conceived a child with them? I'm just saying that even though I was an OW I'm not evil. Maybe they all aren't totally evil either.<P>Del

Wow Delphi I have always wondered why you have consistently defended the OW on this board and now I know why. <P>Your smugness and cavalier attitude toward the betrayed is beyond belief. And the fact that you call yourself a Christian wow that is so unbelievable. You really have no reason to come this forum since you have NEVER been in the situation so I can only deduce that you come here to cause these woman additional pain. You don't have any clue about what each of these woman have gone thru but maybe someday you will be betrayed like these woman.. You know the old saying , What goes around comes around.<p>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited August 03, 2000).]