or anybody else........<BR>Hi everybody, this is my first post, But Ive been reading here for a couple months. <BR> My story: Wife (age 30, me 32)of 10 years had a brief (I think) affair and became pregnant. We dont have any children.....she always said she didnt want any, so I had a V. She's very remorseful but wont consider abortion due to her core beliefs. I respect that. OM is out of the picture and she is NOT in withdrawal as far as I can tell and really appears to love me.....even initiates intimacy regularly. Im 98 percent sure I can raise this child with her, be a great "dad", and not be resentful, due to my deep love for her.<P> It's the other 2 percent that scares h*** out of me. I've been reading about this "presumptive paternity" thing and therein lies my dilemma. What if she, sometime down the road, dumps me or I find I just cant handle being around OC? I dont care about the money, I do very well and I am not the least bit stingy. But if the worst happens and we part company, how can I even begin to forget her and move on if I'm still writing a check every month 10 or 15 years from now? For something she and this guy did! What if I remarry? My new wife (and maybe her children) will be deprived of that money. Would that be fair to her/them? I dont think so.<P> So, what the heck do I do? My freinds and family ALL say run, dont walk to the nearest divorce lawyer BEFORE the child is born. But it isnt that simple....I love the woman. Ive hinted around to her that we get a divorce but stay together as a family. She wont hear of it and starts crying every time I mention it. That really tears me up, when she cries, I cant stand it. She swears she wouldnt ask for support if we break up.....but, once upon a time, she swore to "forsake all others" too, so I dont know.<BR>I hope Im not coming across as only worried about the d*** money, I'M NOT! I'll always care about her and would always help her financially if she needed it. I just dont want it jammed down my throat by some judge. I guess maybe I didnt meet all her EN's, but aside from that, I'm the innocent party here!<P> You know the funny thing here is that I always feared she might have an affair someday. She is an incredibly pretty woman and is hit on constantly by men. I always figured that sooner or later one of these guys would say the magic words.....I was prepared for that, but for some strange reason I never even considered this OC thing happening. I feel like I've been run over by a freight train. <P> Oh well, I've got to make a decision fast. OC is due in Feb. Is it correct (I'm in Virginia) that if we are still married when it's born, then I am that child's legal "father"? Will my name be on the birth certificate? How do you tell a kid about something like this...wait til he's 35?<P> Thanks everybody, for listening. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.<P>Best of luck to you all,<BR>Lou <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by middleman:<BR><B>So, what the heck do I do?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wow, brutal situation. I feel your pain and applaud your attitude to stick it out.<P>As in so many situations, the Harleys have some specific advice here on the site. The following link will take you to an article entitled "What to do if your spouse becomes pregnant with a lover's child"<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5063a_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5063a_qa.html</A> <P>It seems to me that you have to decide whether you want to be this child's father or not. There are a lot of questions to work through here: Does the biological father know? Is he REALLY out of the picture? Should he be told? Some would say there is a moral obligation there. Maybe there is a legal one. <P>If you are not willing to step up and be the legal father for this child, your wife might be well-advised to establish the bio father legally, in case she needs to seek financial support in the future.<P>It is a gnarly issue. Again, I applaud you for hanging in there with your wife. My counsel would be to get to a lawyer fast and have your legal options explained to you (and your wife). Perhaps some sort of middle path can be worked out to address your concerns.<P>as to what to tell the kid.....well....one thing to consider is that you have apparently let this story slip around your circle of friends, from what I infer. That is too bad...it cuts down on your cover story options, raising the risk of the story getting out down the road.<P>You would have been well-suited to merely tell everyone that you two had a change of heart, you couldn't reverse your V or had some other problem, so you got donor sperm.<P>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 05, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 05, 2000).]

middleman, my heart goes out to you. it is such a hard situation to be in. there are several men on this board that are raising the OM's child as their own, and i admire that. hopefully they will see this thread and can offer you some good advice. it seems there are different problems with when the W gets pregnant with OM's child. the H often seems to be expected to raise it as his own when that isn't always easy. it is kind of like adoption, only much different. i think it is totally possible to love a child that is not biologically yours, but the situation makes it difficult, the reminders, etc. <P>i pray that you can make the decision that is right for you. i would talk to a lawyer though. and be sure the OM doesn't find out and want rights to child. if he knew from you W that you had a vasectomy. he will suspect the child is his. and he has rights to the child. these are all things to consider. it is hard, but you can come here for support.<P>happy_girl

Very sorry for the situation. It is so hard when trust is broken with an affair. It is just so much harder when you face the fact that in your situation you cannot just forgive & forget, repair & move on. Some of us get to live with remnants of this break in the relationship for years on into the future. I agree, that is very hard to think about.<P>From my perspective, get a lawyer & discuss the cold, hard facts of what is law in your state. I even did some research on legal code in my state on internet. Some of these laws can be very bizarre. Either way you go with your marriage, you need to know what is law.<P>Second, make firm decisions on your marriage. Are you in counseing? I don't think you can go too far forward with this without making a fairly firm commitment to each other. And it sounds like you still have a few reservations about the marriage. Also you state things like "she is NOT in withdrawal as far as I can tell and really appears to love me...". Too many subjective guesses in that statment. You need to know more about what she is thinking & what you are thinking. If you were prepared for her to have an affair one day, what were you planning to do when it actually happened? Anyway, I have been surprized at how much stronger my H and I have gotten. I sure would not have thought it a few months ago.<P>Anyway, not to harp on the state of your marriage. You seem very concerned about what may happen by forces outside your marriage (judges, courts, etc.). I guess my point is, if you have knowledge of law and you and you W can get as close as possible on marriage, those outside forces won't be a factor. Spend more time focusing on the things that are within your control today. <P>As for what to tell a child. I think about that with my children. What do we tell them about their possible half-sibling? When? In my opinion they do not need to know about the affair & "adult" stuff till much later. If for any reason this child finds out that you are not father, just keep things simple & subjective. Kids don't need the whole "adult" story. And please don't talk to relatives, friends, etc. Too many of us have found out that these people have NEVER been in our shoes and all their good thoughts on this come from a viewpoint that is very righteous. Things that look so clear on surface just are not. I always said I would put up with infidelity about 2 seconds. But I look at my two boys and know that they need their father. I can put up with more than I thought I could to give them the best possible life.<P>Another point is, sometimes vasectomies do fail. Maybe against all odds, this child is yours. How would you explain that you divorced childs mother before it was born? You just never know. <P>I know every thing I am saying could be off base & that you have only posted once. I know that the more info I received from the folks who were here & in similar circumstances, I learned a lot & it helped in the past few months. Take what info you are given, use what seems good for you & ask more questions. I know that you will find the right decision for you & what you know you can live with. <P>Take care... Carolyn

Hello,<BR> I have been dealing with a simular situation for 1 1/2 years now. The diff. being my H had a affair an the OW got preg. She is also married to a man with a V. I have researched the laws a lot. I have found there is a clause in the the presumption of paternity law concerning a V on your part. That the court wont hold you responsible. As long as you dont want to be held responsible and you make that known. If you dont and you go along status quo and the OM has no involment then you could very well not be able to change things later. We have seen 2 lawyers who agrre that H will be held responsible. The thing is 2 it is also a matter of what you all want to do. Does OM know? Does he want involment? My H's OW's H wanted to be the father asked his wife not to even tell my H so they could all move on as a family but she wont have it that way. My H feels financial responsibility, but in situations like this where there are families on both sides I think it is best for the OC to be raised in a stable family invironment. Where they know a daddy full time. Biology doesnt always make some one a father. So any way. Your wife doesnt have to put you on the BC and she can ask the other man for CS to establish a pattern of support on his part. So that can be shown later if you 2 end up divorced. I would suggest a DNA test as well. That is what we did. The OW in our case wants all the things her marriage affords her and her H to be called daddy and then take my H through court to make him pay for not leaving- funny thing is the whole entire time they saw each other thru PG and 8 months after OC was born there was not one single word from her about CS nothing until he ended it then it all started. It has been a long hard road very, very hard. I would see a lawyer if I were you figure all this stuff out now. Then work on your marriage but take care of all the legalities first so there wont be any suprises later if things dont work out for you 2. If you are the only one establishig support you could get held to it later. I believe as bad as all this is things can work out for you and your wife. You both have to make a committment to it. She really has to earn your trust back and your forgiveness. Dont just let it all get swept away work it out find out why it happened so it can be prevented from happening again. It is a lot of hard work but it can be done. Sometimes divorce is a easy way out,but rarely makes anybody feel any better. I hope I helped some. Please feel free to ask me some specific ?'s if you like. I will try and help. 2Hurt <BR>

Lou,<BR><BR>Go see a lawyer to get a complete explanation of your state's laws. But you're right, you're in a very unenvious position right now. If you insist that your wife sue the OM for paternity (in order to establish financial support), then you also keep him in the picture as well. IMO, this threatens your marriage, even if you are the sole contact to transfer the child to the OM for vistation (oh, yes, if he pays child support he will get visitation). So this isn't a good option.<BR><BR>But can you trust your wife? I mean, after all, she just betrayed you. The problem with the infamous assumed paternity laws is that by the time you can make a reasoned judgment about whether you can trust your wife, you will have squandered your right to litigate paternity. I don't mean to sound callous here, but no parent is going to let one of their children go hungry - and if that means nailing a cuckold to the income shares cross, you should expect that she would do exactly that in a divorce. By the way, any contracts she signs stating that she would never ask you for support are meaningless - she cannot negotiate away the child's right to support. And the courts don't care if you're a cuckold. All they care about is how much money you make.<BR><BR>You have to do what you feel is right, and none of us can tell you how to act. Personally, as pro-marriage as I am, I would not risk ever being nailed to the income shares cross for someone else's child. I would pre-emptively divorce and formally (legally) deny paternity. The financial risk you are taking by staying is quite large, and she cannot legally guarantee that she will not change her mind and sock you for 25% of your net income for the next 20 years. I find the thought of paying for someone else's child so morally repugnant I would unilaterally divorce were I in your situation (btw, the dynamics are a little different if there are other children, because the child support amount is only marginally higher. The first child is the costly one, from a child support perspective).<BR><BR>Bystander

Middleman,<BR> I really feel for you. I don't think you are just concerned with the "pennies" you are just being realistic. This marriage could end, and you would be stuck with paying support for the child. Get good legal advice as the others have said. Have you tried the "Freeadvice.com" on the net? You can have legal questions answered for free. Just make sure to put your state in the post so they can see what your options are in your state.<BR> As for your W crying when you mention divorce, that's too bad. She did what she did, now she must live with the consequences. I don't care how much you love someone, they should understand that in this situation, you have a right to protect yourself in it. She's still got you in her life, and should consider herself lucky for that. You can always remarry after the birth, and if she can't be supportive in that, you need to move on. If she wants to stay married, let her come up with a legal way that you can and still not be responsible for this child if the marriage ends. She caused the mess, let her fix it. I'm not sure if I'm the "K" you posted to, but if I am, I hope this helps. Good luck to you, and keep me posted on what happens. Bless you for staying with her, and accepting this child. Not many men would. She just needs to realize that, maybe then she'll be more agreeable to making sure you get what you need to protect your rights in this situation.

Lou,<BR><BR>As I've already mentioned, your wife is legally unable to negotiate away a child's right to support. So any promises she makes now can be voided by a family court for the purposes of nailing you for child support given that you are the presumtive father of this illegitimate child. Yours is exactly the scenario I use in arguing why the infamous assumed paternity laws need reform, but given that they are not reformed yet, I've puzzled over the last couple of hours for other solutions. Only two come to mind.<BR><BR>The first is quite simply that your W give this child up for adoption. Really, this solves a lot of problems, both in terms of you financially protecting yourself, and in terms of you not having the illegitimate child around you, reminding you of all this. IMO, this is probably the single best option.<BR><BR>The second plan is to divorce with a substantially imbalanced divorce settlement favoring you. How imbalanced? Well, assume that each of you would receive 50% of the marital property in a divorce. If your wife can augment your share sufficient to cover the projected child support payment you could be required to make, then have her agree to this and sign away those assets in your name. You can then have her sign a pre-nuptial agreement stating that those assets are your personal propety and shall be unreachable in a second divorce. You can then remarry your wife. If she sues you for divorce, you will then have enough of *her* money (held in your name) to pay the child support amount in the event she sues you for that. Of course, *chuckle*, she's got to trust that you won't take her share of the marital assets after divorce and run!<BR><BR>It takes substantial marital assets to make this plan work, but if those assets are there, its fairly clever. Its puts the financial liability for this child back on her, where it rightfully belongs. If I can come up with any other ideas, I'll post.<BR>Bystander

Thanks a million, everybody<P>Let me clarify a few things. I got a little sloppy with the plurals when I said "All my friend(s) and family member(s) said "Run, dont walk..." The ONLY people I've told about this is my (twin) sister and my best friend (male) since kindergarten....both of whom I completely trust to keep their mouths shut. BTW.....both of them have already started to hedge on their "Run, dont walk......" advice... Plus we live in a huge metropolitan area. We go months without even talking to the neighbors...Wave once in a while, maybe. So, there is'nt any "What are people gonna say kind of s***" to worry about. Even before I tuned into MB, I knew humiliating my W was not going to help anything....vindictiveness....Thats a LB is'nt it?....counter productive IMHO<P>One of you asked "could the vasectomy have failed?" That's the FIRST thing I thought of/suggested when she said "I'm pregnant"......Then she shook her head and I thought "aww s***" and here I am folks.<P>Now, as for the OM, W seems to be mad at him and swears that he does not and will not ever know of his child. Hallelujah! That I KNOW I could never handle. I could give a s*** less about his "parental rights" If he were to ever show up at our house, I hope he's hungry, cus he's going to get a knuckle sandwich....hold the friggin mayo! I know thats irrational.....he just availed himself of a marvelous opportunity. Visitation? Noooooo....only visitation will be my W (hopefully) and family coming to see me at the penitentiary if this fella does'nt get up after I hit him. On the other hand, If my W has a change of heart and tells him....case closed....I'm outta here.<P>Ahhh, counseling.....I sure would like to know what went wrong.....but I kind of cringe at the thought of spilling my guts to strangers (present company excluded. lol) I want to live out my life with this girl....so joint counseling is an attractive proposition....i'd love to hear how I failed her and go to work on changing myself....(back?)into the guy of her dreams. She is and always has been the girl of my dreams.<P>Bystander....Thanks to you especially, some great ideas you offered. You said basically said what I know to be true. (except for the imbalanced setlement) Brilliant. I devise stuff like that in my profession. I'm cold, callous and analytical from 9 to 5. I regularly stare down some pretty big "dogs" in the corporate world. Why then, am I such a blithering idiot when it comes to my wife? That, along with a three foot flame is what burns my a** !<P> I went for a long offshore sail today, by myself, and had about a ten hour "think"...still dont know what to do....but I improved my tan somewhat, LOL. But I did decide that I dont want to live without her...so, I guess I'm gonna have to roll the dice and "takes" my chances. <P> Hey folks! When's "fathers" day.....sometime in May, isnt it? I might get a card, ya think?<P>Many, many thanks to you all!<P>Lou

Lou:<P>Well, you've gotten all the "good" advice that I could have given, pretty much.<P>I would strongly suggest that you do the counseling together, and if you've read this website and are familiar with Harley's techniques, I'd urge you to give the phone counseling here a try (888-639-1639). I worked with Steve Harley for over a year through this, and he's a great coach and motivator, and I think you'd be pretty happy with his techniques. In addition, the phone counseling is really convenient and pretty reasonable---most of the counseling is "individual-based" stuff focused on behavioral modification to learn good marriage skills. There's really no "he said---she said" joint skewering that often goes on in an office setting (run by someone who's less than competent).<P>Bystander put some good options on the table. My situation was "easier" in that I already had two children by my wife when #3 was conceived. So I wouldn't have paid a huge "premimum" for support anyway. But let me urge you to consider this:<P>A child can be a terrific gift---a blessing straight from God. You might consider this situation as a nightmare, but it could also be a dream come true. This situation gives you substantial opportunity to build your wife's "lovebank". To renew your marriage. It also gives you an opportunity to be a father---and it seems that you are excited about that potential.<P>Although I respect Bystander's views on the unfairness of child support laws and the situation with "out-of-wedlock" babies---really, there's a tremendous upside for you here. Even if you ended up divorced, you would always be this child's "dad". It could cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars (assuming a good income)---but you might find that not to be a big deal. I look at Noah, at 1.5 years, and I know that he's the greatest gift God ever has given me. It would be worth millions to be his "dad".<P>You'll probably feel the same way too. I wouldn't sweat this---use the "concern" of divorce and child support as motivation to build an affair-proof marriage. Do the counseling together, right now, and start deciding all these major issues using the Policy of Joint Agreement. If you build the love between yourself and your wife, I think you'll see the payoff in ways that you can't imagine. That 2% of doubt is perfectly healthy, but it will disappear. Heck, I got rid of my 10%...<P>And don't forget to get the Mother's day card IN MAY. Your day is in June, BTW...

<BR>K,<P>You always impress me. Always! <P>Bystander<BR>--<BR>Whose youngest son is named Noah Zacchaeus.

K<P>You humble me so with your charity. I truly believe if I were a man in your situation, I might be able to be somewhat like you, and if not, I would pray I could be. <BR>When the OP is out of your life and you have no court issues, I believe it is far, far easier to welcome an innocent child into your heart. <P>Having just had the sheriff at my door again today, just hours ago, slapping me with another violation of a phony order for protection from the OW because, by law, I was required to send her a copy of the appeal, any charity I may have felt for her or the child is gone forever. It would take a truly Christ-like person to be able to overcome what I am facing-again. I am sad to say, I fall grossly short.<P>You are a true inspiration and I know Middleman will benefit from your example if he pays attention to your charity and Bystander's clarity.<P>Catnip =^^=

catnip:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When the OP is out of your life and you have no court issues, I believe it is far, far easier to welcome an innocent child into your heart. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Absolutely. I have all the wonderful benefits of having another child in my life, with very little of the downside---especially in terms of the OM. We had a "hang-up" call from him a little over a year ago, but that has been it.<P>Your situation and several of the other's here in which you are dealing with intrusive OP's is just very tiring. It IS an opportunity to rebuild love in your marriage---coming together to present a united front against adversity isn't all bad---but eventually you'd like to get some semblence of a life back.<P>I will pray for you---I know that it's not fun to be tested in this manner.<P>Bystander: I knew that we had a pair of "dueling Noah's". We took the kids to the local swim club, and Noah is throwing himself off the side into Mom's arms in the big pool (at 19 months). Hope he doesn't try it when she's not there...

Dear Middleman,<P>I am in a situation somewhat like yours. I am very sorry for your pain, and for the difficult choices you will be forced to make. Have you even had time to grieve? Has your wife? Pregnancy changes everything. But K is right - what you do now will shape the rest of your life, and it might do so in ways that you could not possibly imagine.<P>I understand Bystander's indignation at the assumed paternity laws, though (perhaps surprisingly) I view them very differently. This is a situation that goes far beyond justice, in the sense that we normally understand it, of what is fair to all parties. In Hebrew, justice (mishpat) has an added connotation of making the world a better, fairer place for all, which implies particular concern for the "widow, the poor and the orphan." And that view of justice requires thinking about the child first.<P>When my wife became pregnant by OM, we already had several children. I was worried about the pregnancy (didn't know about OM then) for economic reasons, since we didn't have enough money as it was. But I knew that I loved being a father, and had already experienced it. You have not, so you will be taking a huge risk if you agree to go ahead. I know of nothing more rewarding in my life than children, and suspect that it might be that way for you as well, but only you can find that out, and you can only learn by doing, and then it will be too late to back out. It would be far easier for you emotionally if you already had children of your own (biologically). In that sense, I cannot imagine your pain and inner turmoil.<P>But you do know, now, about the child, while your wife is still pregnant. I found out a few months after ours was born. My wife and OM had agreed between themselves that I would be a good father, and that I should raise him. And I was raising him. But all the while she was phoning OM and occasionally visiting him with the child, acting completely like OM was the father, in more than a biological sense. That betrayal hurt even worse than the betrayal of the affair. You might think that I would have been tempted to deny paternity rather than accept the situation into which I had been manipulated. And that would have seemed fair.<P>But with a child all bets are off. I had been raising him as my own, and loved him. I couldn't turn off those emotions. And my other children loved this child too. And I knew that my wife and this child came as a package. So I told all parties, (my wife, OM, OM's wife) that I would raise this child as my own. No contact and no money wanted. I think that is the only way - I can't imagine having to deal with a second dad somewhere else, sending money or having visitation.<P>The hardest thing for my wife to accept was that OM could just turn off their relationship, and his relationship with the child, as if he had flicked a switch. It took almost a year for her to accept that.<P>And I learned a lot too. She asked me for a divorce at one point, and said that she would name OM as father and sue him for support. And I realized, of course, that when I told myself I would be his father for life, whatever happened to my wife and I, I was not speaking empty words. So I told her that, if we divorced I would still raise this child, and did not want OM involved. I loved him, and also did not want him to be caught up in the pain of being the different child, the other one, the left out one. I wanted him to be fully a part of our family, whatever that should mean.<P>We are still married. Indeed closer than we have been in several years. But we each know, now, that this child has a father for life.<P>Really, you have two choices, so far as I can see. I don't know which is best for you:<P>(1) Divorce your wife and mean it. No further relationship.<P>(2) Do not divorce, work on your marriage and your relationship, and accept completely that you will be the father of this child, whatever happens. Whether you and your wife remain married forever, or you divorce, or she dies. Do not start a relationship with a child thinking that you can back out. You can, and people do every day, but the children suffer, and you will be destroying a part of yourself.<P>Bystander makes good legal points, but this is an emotional and moral issue. You must come to terms with your emotions and with the morality of the situation, of the utter seriousness and tremendous beauty of being father to a child. Use the law only to protect your emotional relationship. I felt comforted knowing that it protects mine.<P>So don't try some fancy middle course, where you use legal means to keep your options open, or to protect yourself financially. If you give this a try, if you will be there with your wife at the birth, and will raise this baby, remember that someday the child will have to know everything. Either be ready to tell him (or her) that you wanted to be his father from before he was born, and that you love him, or else sever the ties now and avoid the whole situation.<P>Good luck and God bless you,<P>StillTrying<P>

Still Trying:<P>Thank you for your poignant post. You made me cry.<P>God is and will bless you.<P>Catnip =^^=