I posted on General Questions but thought I'd get a better response here.<P>Well our counselor after our 4th session asked us if we thought about separation to see what life would be like without each other. He asked me what "I" was doing to rebuild the trust between my H and I.<P>How can you rebuild trust while you are apart? What in the world can I do to rebuild the trust I have in my H? Why is this owness being put on my doorstep? Am I completly ignorant in my thinking? Am I so stupid I've been thinking this whole time I've been working so hard to keep this relationship alive when I was actually killing it? I've never felt so horrible and lost. I didn't think this could get any worse and yet it does. How deep is this hole? Someone help me!<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate

lsm,<P>I am so sorry that you are having such a rough time. My h takes business trips, and I did miss him, it did make me think twice about whether or not I could live without him. I realized that I did want to work things out. Now I know the biggest problem in your present situation is the fact that your H wants to have contact with the OC. <P>All I can say is you need to search deep in yourself as to what you can handle. I know that I am not strong enough to include a OC into my life. So my life problems are only half as bad as yours. But there are women on this site who have and who can include the OC. I would try to keep going to counseling. If this counselor isn't helping you, then maybe you should try someone new. Are you also doing individual counseling, that might be a option. I think the hardest thing to do is the one thing that we are not supposed to do, keep bringing up the subject. But how can we not, right? I don't know that is what I am trying to learn. But whether you stay or go that is soemthing you will have to learn to live through. If you are not with your h you will still want to have a good relationship for your family, so that they don't pay the price forever. <P>All I can say might not help. That I understand your feelings, confusion, and pain. I truly feel like alot of the people hear, that I am the stronger one. My H is still a mess, I have to try and keep HIS spirits up because he is so depressing. I am sure to some degree that you feel that way. I know that your h mentioned how he didn't want a child coming to him in years and asking where he was. My true feelings are that, that answer is on the OW. It is up to her to explain to that child that she decided to screw a married man. And that she knew the ramifications of having the child. I have said before, if I was that child I could understand. I am rambling. Try to keep your chin up. I am hear to listen to your concerns along with everyone else. By the way I never did go to individual counseling because being here has helped me. I can now try to face the reality of this problem, and try to find some solutions. You will be ok, it might just take a while.<P>babstr.

Babstr: I may not have made myself clear. My H doesn't want contact w/OW that I know of. He now doesn't think he wants contact with OC. But that's a whole separate issue.<P>Right now I'm not sure I'm ready to trust him and allow him to (go to lake w/co-workers, go out with friends, etc.). I feel as though I need more time. Our 2nd Dday was just on 7/13 and I feel as though I'm being hammered into separation because I'm not ready to trust. Is it wrong to ask for more time from my H? Isn't he the one who has to prove himself again?<P>How in the world can you prove yourself while you are apart? How can you heal the marriage when you are separated? For me to heal myself (alone) would only mean one thing and that is to close the door. Move on and know what direction I'm headed. Am I being selfish in asking for more time when our last falling out was less than 3 weeks ago?<P><P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate

<BR>I think separations are usually a bad idea, unless one of the spouses is physically violent and needs training in anger management. Short version: You can grow farther apart during a separation, but its pretty hard to grow closer.<P>Bystander

Bystander: That's my stance. And I'm afraid for what might happen to my feelings for my H during this separation. Afraid I'd close myself off and not let him back in again.<P>I asked him to leave many times during his affair (before I knew about it) or just after I found out. He didn't stay away and I see now it was a mistake on my part. Instead of pushing him away I could have reached out and maybe prevented this whole mess. I've tried everything I know of. Is it too much to ask for a little more time? And how much time do I need? I know it takes at the very least 1 year to recover but during that time you slowly gain trust back into the relationship. I just don't think my H has given me enough time or space to heal. Am I all wrong about this? Am I the moron who just doesn't get it? Why do I feel like that?<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate

LSM,<BR>I believe that separating from your H would be more harmful than good. I'm surprised that your counselor would even suggest that after you have been betrayed. I would recommend you find another counselor. Your H betrayed the trust you had in him and it will take a long time to restore that trust. And, even then, it will never be the same. I have begun to trust my H for the most apart (after 1-1/2 years of recovery) but there are still times when I have doubts. Your H should NOT be off doing activities without you right now. He should be sensitive to your feelings regarding this. LSM, you are NOT being unreasonable.<P>Take care, <BR>Audrey

lsm,<P>I too am not for separation. I was just saying that having a two day break made me realize that I wouldn't want to be seperated from him. I didn't think that your h wanted to have anything to do with the OW. But I did remember him wanting a relationship with the OC.<P>No, I don't think you are crazy to want more time with your h. My h went out with his best friend, and my heart dropped with worry. I have had to give him baby steps in what he is allowed to do. But we constantly talk about what he is going to do, with who, and where. I think your husband should do what makes you feel comfortable. <P>I watched the Oprah show once with Dr. Phil talking about affairs. And he told the husbands that it doesn't matter how long they have to keep bending over to make their wives feel comfortable. That they don't decide, the wife decides. That the husband made the mess and he has to keep cleaning it up, until it is clean, and it isn't clean until she says. I think that is true it really hit a cord with me. <P>I hope that you are feeling a little better. I hope I helped a little bit.<P>babstr.

Lostsoulmate,<P>I totally disagree with your counselor. How can you possibly build a relationship (which includes trust) if you're separated? That doesn't make sense.

I disagree with your counselor. It's hard to try and put things together during a seperation. I know, because H and I are still seperated, and trying to rebuild at the same time. We have to get our lives in order financially now, before we can afford to get a place together. It can be done, but it's frustrating too. I am regaining my trust in my husband, because I can see by his actions that he knows he made a mistake, and that he does want to work things out. Things are going very well for us, we've made a lot of progress, but I'm sure that it would be easier on both of us if we were together. I think if I were you, I'd find a different counselor. No way would I recommend seperation, although it does seem to make it clear what you had, and lost when you are on your own. Do things the way you feel you should. You don't have to blindly follow a counselor's advice. They are human too, and make mistakes. Follow your heart on this one, and nothing else.

My H and I have been through counselling. Our counsellor brought up the issue of separation but he told us himself that usually each person becomes isolated and they don't usually find their way back. He only recommended separation if the anger was so intense that there was a real threat to one of the parties.<P>He also said that the betrayal is so severe in cases of affairs that the W needs to talk and talk and talk. She needs to ask any and all questions on her mind and even ask them five times each if that is what she needs to resolve it in her own head. The counsellor told my H that, although it is unpleasant for him to go over the details again and again, it is the only way that the venom can get out and the healing can begin.<P>My H and I agreed that, in order to rebuild MY trust in him, he would have to make a special effort to show me that he had changed. That included calling me several times when he had to be away on business, or when he was late for any reason. I know how you feel -- it was not easy to believe him when he said he had things to do which were, in the past, the excuses for seeing the OW. But little by little and with his frequent contact I started to trust again.<P>I would suggest that you decide what kind of reinforcement you need to satisfy your suspicions and ask him to comply -- whether it is phone calls or taking you with him or limited his contact with friends that you suspect may have been involved -- whatever it may be. He destroyed the trust NOT YOU and he is the one who has to prove that he can be trusted.<P>Good luck<P>- Heavenly

Hevenlybody26 thank you for your encouragement. My H is feeling as though it could be years before I'll trust him. He says that if he had some frame of reference as to how long it would take he could commit to that time. But that not knowing makes him feel like it's could be forever. And that I'm asking him to be someone he isn't by asking him not to have time for himself. I know he needs this. Just as we all do. I even miss my time alone. But the fact is I can't trust him. He thinks that if we were to separate we would still be in contact. I'm trying to get him to understand that separation doesn't mean you still have contact. That it means Plan B and that means none. I couldn't be in touch with him anyway. It would be too hard. Is there any way to rebuild trust while you are apart? I feel as though I am the only one in my life who sees this. Am I wrong. <P>I'm glad to hear a part of your story. It gives me hope. I know that I just need time and that "slowly" I can trust him again. But I can't seem to get him to give me the time. And now I feel again as though I'm begging him to stay in this marriage. I will not do that. I just want him to want to be with me. <P>Now all I feel is that the finger it being pointed in my direction because I dedicated my life to my marriage to my H and now to our D. And that I didn't have my own life so I'm not my own person. Again the onus is with me. Could I be wrong about everything? Shouldn't we be working on gaining the trust back before we work on the other issues? Somebody help me. I feel as though the wall is going back up around my heart and the anger is seeping back in. I don't want to become the person I was before. Yet it's the only way I seem to be able to be strong. Isn't there an end to the tears?<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate<p>[This message has been edited by lostsoulmate (edited August 11, 2000).]

LSM:<P>I don't think you have a good counselor if he is suggesting separation. I encourage you to call Steve Harley for a few sessions for the two of you and for you to reread the principles and go into a full throttle Plan A.<P>Trust issues take a long time for some. The reason why the trust issues in my marriage are stabilizing is because my husband is very loving, involved with me, spends most of his off time with me, talks to me and wants desperately to stay with me. <BR>Because he exhibits these things to me daily, I do not distrust him like I did. I know he is sincere...I trust him with one eye open.<P>You don't have to completely trust your husband yet until he has shown you significant steps that he is committed to you. <BR>When he makes you feel safe and secure, tell him. If you have a feeling of trust for him, tell him it feels like it is coming back little by little. This may give him incentive or may make it feel plausible to him that there is a chance that you will trust him again, when he has earned it.<P>To be separated right now could be the death nell for you both...don't do it. And get rid of any counselor that appears to be a quack and get one more in line with Harley's principles. <BR>Another thing to consider is Retrouvaille where they focus on all these issues you are dealing with. They will also reassure your spouse that the only responsiblity he has is to you and to your marriage and that he owes nothing more than financial to OC. That alone could alleviate his some of his indecision about the OC.<P>All husbands stand in front of us with a stopwatch asking us how long it will take us to get over this and move on and how long it will take us to trust them again. I remember my husband standing in the kitchen telling me that this wasn't going to work, that I would never get over this. He couldn't face the journey ahead and all the work it would take to repair and worried that it wouldn't work anyway. <BR>They often believe that there's just too much damage that has been done and to try to make the marriage work is going to be a big waste of time. <BR>After five difficult months, my husband realized what he would loose if we ended our marriage. He knew he would miss me the rest of his life.<P>Catnip =^^=

Dear lostsoulmate: Probably separation is not a good option for you, but I thought I would tell you what happened with mine.<P>My H has left me twice. Once to stay with OW (lasted 2 days) and once to stay with a male friend for four weeks. During that month, H either called or visited me every day. He spent a 3-day holiday weekend with me. It was h**l on me when he left at the end of each visit, but generally he was more considerate of me during that time than he had been for a long time. Things have been better, too, since he's been back even though he's still sleeping on the couch. He's still feeling the guilt, and I'm trying not to push him. At least he's home and making some type of attempt at working on our marriage. Of course, who knows what will happen when OC gets here. He has decided he's going to be a "proud papa". I have no problem with that, but for now it does mean he'll have more contact with OW. But after spending a couple of days in her home, I think he's gotten her out of his system. <P>So, in my case, I think the separation was good for H. I feel he's made the choice now to be here rather than away.<P>Of course, each situation is different. Good luck to you.<P>Sue

On separation: No. Not unless you have a specific need to separate (violence, etc.) and/or a specific agenda & objective with the separation. Sounds like your counselor is trying to get you both to either fear living apart (to force you closer) or to rid you of fear of living apart. Those don't seem to be your issues. I would look for another counselor who will deal with issues you bring to the table.<P>Our counselor is fairly decent & in practice many years, but when I brought in a copy of SAA, he was floored. The next session told me "thanks" for showing him that & opening up his world to Harley. I told him I wanted to follow Harley plan & he said "I think that would be good idea". <P>Harley has some strong issues about trust & I think they are valid. My ability to do Plan A made my H drop a lot of his defenses. Once that occurred, he started trying harder to rebuild my trust. But just saying "rebuild trust" is so big & so vague. You must start slow & very specific. If there are certain things you just cannot fell ok about, tell your H. But let him know when he is doing the right things & give him opportunities to prove that he can be trusted. I don't know what these might be, but perhaps that will help him with his "timeframe".<P>Catnip is right. The H does stand there with the stopwatch pointing the finger at all the things they think made them do what they did. All of that is BS and we know it. Lots of women have periods of time when they focus more on family & children than their H. Most of these men DO NOT have affairs. Lot's of things happen in life and most men DO NOT have affairs because of those things. So shuck off that guilt & just keep the knowledge in the back of your head that all that BS is just their own guilt eating them up & they have to find a way to share it. God knows they are not going to up front admit it was just their own childish, self-centered, male ego stuff that got them where they are at. I guess Plan A also helped me in that all the time I was first into Plan A it helped shoot down all the excuses my H was using for why he did what he did. Boy was that sweet revenge! I felt good doing Plan A & it was not what he wanted me to do. Only by my being un-trusting, withdrawn, walled up could he be justified in his actions. <P>Quit taking the guilt. Be open & try trusting. Give him specific things that he can do to gain your trust. Or (if yo can) put the monkey on his back. Give him your complete trust. Quit wasting your time being the "watch dog" over his actions. Let HIM be that watch do. Let him know you have given him all the trust you ever had in him. That same trust be betrayed once. And that if it is ever betrayed again, let him know what the consequences will be. It is about like dealing with small children. When I took this stance I felt better. Then no one was watching me waiting for ME to fail. Be specific about what will be considered a betrayal. If something falls into a gray area, well write it off & let him know that NEXT TIME this will be considered an "offense".<P>I am with you. I am tired of being put in the "work" position in this rebuilding. You just ahve to be a little smarter about how to put them into that position (without them realizing the table has been turned).<P>Take care & don't "wall up" yet. <P>Carolyn

I agree with the others. If your counselor is making poor suggestions (yes, separation sounds like a bad idea at this point), then maybe you should consider a different counselor. Grill the new one about their experiences/expertise helping couples recover from adultery.<P>Once again, I super-recommend the book "After the Affair" by Janis Abrams Spring....<P>It gives very specific things each partner can do re: trust, and yes the bulk of it is the betraying partner's responsibility!<P>Best wishes,<BR>Jenny

lostsoulmate<P>It helped me most to work on the issues -- when I started to understand why the affair happened then I felt I had more control over working with my H to make things right. My H did not believe that I would ever trust him again and at the same time he was concerned that he would be treated like a "criminal" for the rest of our life together. <P>But, I have looked at it as realistically as I can. I cannot stop him from reuniting with the OW or from meeting a new woman if that is what he really wants to do. I decided to concentrate on opening communication enough so that each of us could fully discuss and understand what went wrong. It was not making me a very happy person to sit and worry every minute of every day about whether he was being faithful. That is too emotionally draining.<P>Resist the pressure from your H to rush your feelings. Explain to him that if you do not have the proper time to grieve and rebuild you will carry the bitterness and anger forever. Cheaters don't seem to understand that they have had an advantage. They have been living with their situation. By the time we find out, all they want to do is "forget it" when all we want to do is "find out" more about it.<P>It was four months before I started to feel like a human being again and then the process of rebuilding trust will continue for a while. <P>But I must tell you one thing that my counsellor said that made a lot of sense. I kept asking my H "why"? Why did he do this? Why did he break up our happy home? Why did he have this affair? There is absolutely no answer because no that will ever be acceptable to any of us. My counsellor told me to stop asking questions that were self-destructive and would only keep dredging up my pain. Accept that there is no acceptable answer for what happened and try to ask questions that can work towards a resolution.<P>It really helped me when I admitted to myself that I could not change what happened but I still wanted to continue my marriage. At that point I knew I had to find that comfort zone inside myself that would enable me to accept and go forward. That has really worked and helped me to heal.<P>Again, I wish you good luck and hope that some of my rambling made some sense and can be helpful to you in a small way.<P>Best wishes<BR>- Heavenly

You all have been so supportive, I just don't know what I would do without this board.<P>I know my H feels like a criminal and I hate that but how else can I gain my trust back. I just can't get him to see that all I need is time and baby steps. I remember while he was in college I couldn't stand the time apart. We'd talk all the time and I remember when I was having a hard time he would tell me "In time honey...in time". And so I waited.<P>For 3 long hard years I waited. I know it's hard on my H to not feel like he can do things without me. But slowly I'll feel better about it. With the reassurance, and support before, during and after each time.<P>After I found out my H was "talking" with this girl I trusted him. I only asked for his cell phone password. He still went out, did things with friends, etc. For several months I was still insecure about this girl. Turned out I had reason to be. So after the second time I found out about their contact "still told it was only talking" I still did not request him to be with me all the time or call me all the time etc. After d-day just a couple weeks after this I yet again still did not ask all these things of my H. I truly thought he knew it was a big mistake and that he wouldn't even think about talking with this girl again. I was wrong. It was only after the 2nd d-day that I said enough. I have to have access to all cell phones, pagers, e-mails, etc. and I asked my H to call me from work every night before he comes home so I know he's leaving from work. I want him to be available to me by cell all the time. So I was finally pushed to this extreme and yet I'm still being asked to trust.<P>I didn't ask for any of this. I didn't do anything that needs repairing in terms of trust. I had my own life. I took the time I needed for myself. Spend time with family, sister, etc. without my H. But I now have to sacrafice that for a while because I need to rebuild my marriage with my H. Why do I feel like everyone is looking at me to take the corrective actions still? As if I haven't worked so hard all this time. Could my H really leave me when I need him most? Leave when all I ask for is time to heal? Heal from an injury that he inflicted? I know I have to give too. But it's just too soon. I'm not ready yet. I'm too scared. I don't want to spend another 5 months and find out again there's still been contact. I love this man too much and I know it will take me a very long time to get over him. I'm tired of wasting time on all this. I want to get to the end of the recovery road and start living out lives together again. Looking at the future together and our family. I want to know that I have all that my H needs. During the good times and the bad. To know he'll always be there for me and me for him.<P>How can I convince my H to give me the time to heal? Do I want to convince him? Shouldn't he be willing? Am I being blind again?<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate<P>"Character is doing what's right, when no one is looking"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lostsoulmate:<BR><B>I know my H feels like a criminal and I hate that but how else can I gain my trust back.</B><P>My adbvice would be to not worry about trust and focus on love. Somewhere in one of Harleys article he talks about trust...how he doesn't trust his own wife, totally. (I guess in this line of work you come home with a lot of baggage and examples of why not to trust your wife, huh?)<P>He tlaks about how a total open life accounting can overcome those trust issues. Having his email and cell phone reords and passwords, his accounting for his time each day, etc. If you are a good watchdog, I guess trust doesn't have to be an issue for awhile while you heal. And he should show his contrition, his concern for your pain, and his commitment to restoring the marriage by cooperating in giving you allt he daily assurance he can that he is not in contact with the OW.<P>By the way, as to the separation issue.....I suspect that your counselor was more using it as a "wakeup" tactic....sort of showing you both the cliff...perhaps as a method of getting you to turn the corner, move through the anger, and realize that if there isn't some work done by both parties, one or both of you will have had enough. <P>by the way, here is an article on overcoming resentment that might help you out right now: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html</A> <P>LSM, I haven't been keeping up. Have you worked anything out on the logistics of the OC yet?<P>Best Wishes,<P>Mike<BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 15, 2000).]

Mike I have to admit we have not. We asked OW not to contact us until after the baby is born and a DNA is conclusive.<P>But the lawyer I had contacted (she's a divorce laywer) has not returned my calls. And I'm not sure how to go about getting in touch with the right person. Any suggestions?<P>I think you're right about the counselor. But at this stage in the game I think it might just hurt me and I'll end up pushing my H away.<P>Can I ask you something? My H works at night. Gets home around 10:30ish. His co-workers and employees go out after work a lot to drink at the Hilton and other bars. My H feels as though this is something he'd like to do every so often. But my concern is like Dr. Harley said you are more susceptable (sp?) to having an affair when you put yourself in the circumstance and give yourself an opportunity. Isn't that what my H is doing when he does these things? Is this something a married man should be doing, when his wife and daughter are at home?<P>Do you or anyone else have any advice for me on getting a laywer to represent us or give us a consultation at no charge? Help us understand our rights and give us some guidance? Obviously this is new to me and I don't know where to begin.<P>I have to admit I feel embarrassed that I still haven't done anything in that respect. Like I let you down. But I'm just so exhausted by this whole thing it takes so much just to take one step. Can you shed any light? I could really use the help right now. Thank you Mike for remembering me.<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate<P>"Character is doing what's right, when no one is looking"<p>[This message has been edited by lostsoulmate (edited August 14, 2000).]

lsm.<P>I would question the going out and drinking. That is what happened to my h and why I am in this hell. He got drunk, and the OW took her opprotunity. Being drunk, and getting rubbed the right way. I personally do not think that a man who has been down this road should be out drinking. Especially if he is depressed or angry over the situation at home. I think that is just asking for it. I will not let my husband go out drinking. Especially since he blames drinking on why he cheated. But that is just my choice. Do you know the coworkers? Do they have respect for you? Will he go out without drinking? Just some questions. I really understand you fear. You are still in my prayers.<P>babstr.