O.K., I am posting this NOT to start anything (heaven knows NONE of you guys need that!)<BR>It is just an honest question,etc.<BR>I kind of stated my story in Catnips thread. <BR>Quick Rundown:<BR>I am an OW. I do have an OC w/MM.<BR>It was NOT planned and thus, I have decided that OC is MY responsibilty and NO-ONE ELSES.<BR>That is how I feel and that is how I intend to feel for the rest of my life.MM, W (nor me for that matter) asked for this and I believe that it is up to me to deal with NOT them. I do NOT ask nor do I intend to EVER ask for financial assistance from them. Why should this inflict upon their finances? I personally think that their are some OW that <BR>have OC to get the $ and to cause more heartache on the "other" family (like we haven't caused enough already). I HATE those type of OW. Clean up your own mess, I believe. AFter I have said all of that here is something I NEED to know. Like I said I don't mean to cause harm, hurt, or anything like that. If I do, I apologize. I am just attempting to see things from another point of view. PLEASE,PLEASE, PLEASE feel free to ignore this, if need be. So, here it goes..<BR>In MY situation MM is invloved with OC on an emotional level. He honestly does not feel that he could live with himself knowing theree is a child out there that is his and ignore it. MM's W has "allowed" this relationship to continue on 1 big understandable condition. That is: that I not be there when he visits his child. I have agreed to this and think it is completely reasonable, etc. W has NOT and according to MM does NOT want to see OC at all. She "Accepts" that OC exists but has no intention of Accepting OC in her life. Completely understandable. I guess my question is: how long do you think she can go on like this?<BR>Do you think she will eventually want to see OC? I was contemplating cutting off contact between OC and MM. But, MM said he will take me to court (w/her backing) if I terminate visitation. Mind you I am not EXPECTING, ASKING, etc. her to accept the OC in her life. I am just wondering if she possibly feels some curiousity or something that might eventually bring her into OC life? I guess I kind of want to prepare myself and OC if this is a possibilty in the future. Thanks for your input....<P>

<BR>Duranie,<P>Can you tell me why you are contemplating an attempt to cut off the OC from the MM? Are you trying to provoke a court fight in which he must seek to establish paternity, so you can tell yourself that "the child support judgment was only a by-product of him suing for paternity rights"...? I hate to frame it that way, but something just doesn't sound right in this picture.<P>Bystander

I don't mind telling you at all....<BR>MM has been drinking heavily lately, and has been very "abusive" towards me when I leave him with the OC.It scares the daylights out of me. I am not comfortable leaving him alone with OC and I will NOT be there with them when a visit occurs (I PROMISED that to his W and considering that is all she asked for after all I did to her I have to HONOR that) That is why I have been contemplating<BR>cutting off contact. I don't need to get paternity established (his name is on birth certificate), and I have already signed a notorized document (of which ALL of us have copies), that CS would not be pursued.<BR>I hope that answers your questions. I have no ulterior "motives". I have been (or so I thought) pretty upfront with you guys and I have no intentions of lying at this stage...<BR>

I guess I should clarify more on my previous post. When I was saying stopping the visitation, I was thinking of it on a temporary basis (ie: until he gets help with his drinking). Also, to reiterate none of my thinking has to do with child support. I don't want it, don't need it, ahaven't asked for it, have no intention of asking for it. There is a legal, binding agreement in effect (prompted by ME), that I signed stating that" mother agrees to waive any rights to child suppport in regards to minor child.No CS will be awarded to minor child until said child reaches the age of 18 (child is now 2 1/2)". I have been honest with you guys, I hope this clears up ay thoughts that might be going through your heads. <BR>Peace.......

Duranie:<P>I, for one, am glad you are on our forum...I hope you stick around. I know I will have many questions for you from your point of view over the next few months. <P>Your POV is of value to all of us here...and frankly, you're the first one I have been able to stomach on any level because you are obviously into personal responsibility, which I tremendously respect. Even if one or more of us may debate you, or even get a little snarky and use you as a whipping post, I am confident that you will understand where that pain is coming from and be able to rise above it and know that it's just some kind of weird transference....after all, you are in close proximity...<P>I would like to discuss having you write a letter, paper, whatever, telling your story, your point of view and why you feel that this is your repsonsibility and why you feel that it is important to honor your commitment/agreement to the wife. I would like to take it with me to Texas.<P>If you are willing, let me know. The suit is a ways away, however, time goes by so quickly, it just seems like yesterday I was shoveling my driveway, too.<P>Thanks in advance for the possibility of a collaboration of some kind...I would kind of like to make you an example of how a contrite OW with character and honor would behave. A poster girl, if you will.<P>Catnip =^^=

Catnip-<BR>I'll be honest with you. I really wouldn't mind writing a letter or aything like that for you, if you are talking about me posting my story on the board and printing it out. But, in all honestly I would like to remain anonymous simply for the fact that I have already caused the W so much pain and if I were to put anything into "writing" with real names,etc.,there is a possibilty of (due to me being in NY) of W getting hurt again and I don't want that to happen. Please let me know what you want and if you wnat me to post my story I gladly will and you more than would have my permission to print it and use it however you may. Good luck to you and let me know.<P>

Duranie,<BR>I don't think anyone can say if the W will ever want to meet the child. Every case is different. How old is the child? Probably the longer she not sees it, the more likely she won't change her mind.<P>I do think you have a responsibility to protect your child from his/her father if the man seems to be drunk or abusive. Try to get a trustworthy third party to WITNESS the MM's behavior who can testify to it in court if need be so that it is not just your word against his. You've done an honorable thing by keeping your word (ie not seeing the MM). Now you need a safety net for the child. Make any notice re: changes in visitation clear and specific and written to both man and wife. You might consult a lawyer on this... <P>Best wishes,<BR>Jenny<BR>

Duranie,<BR> Sounds like you are having a hard time right now, and I feel for you. I wouldn't count on W changing her mind. Some women can accept relationship with OC, and some can't. As far as stopping visitation, have you told him that you don't feel safe with him drinking so heavily and having the child? It is up to you, you have custody of the child, and you need to do what you feel is right. The fact that he is so bonded with the child may wake him up enough to realize that he needs to seek treatment for the problem he has before he can see the child again. I can't think of any right-thinking man who would want his precious child's only memories of him to be of a drunken, abusive person. Try to point this out to him. Good luck. Keep us posted.

Duranie,<BR>Thanks for taking a chance and telling your story knowing the kind of reception you might get. It is good to know that there are OW out there that are not simply trying to destroy the W and family of the MM.<P>Your concern for your child's well-being is obviously well founded. The fact that the W of the MM has agreed to let him pursue visitation and bonding with the child is already a major concession on her part. If that has been going on a while without her taking an interest she has probably decided to treat the OC as her H's business and none of hers. I agree that it is doubtful she will want to be involved as more time goes by and she has made no attempt.<P>Does the child know his father has a W? Is the OC curious at all about his father's other family? Does the W have children?<BR>If the W does not want the OC around what does the MM do with the OC on visits? Are there any other family members or friends who know the situation and are in the picture?<P>Let me know when you can and maybe I can offer some better advice. Meanwhile, I am also glad you're here.<P>- Heavenly<BR>

Durainie, let me just say I too am glad you are here. I wish with all my heart and soul that my OW was you.<P>It would make recovery so much easier. You are to be commended for your honesty and your charactor for honoring the W's wishes.<P>I couldn't say if the W might want to see OC. She may eventually. But you can't imagine the feeling of your heart breaking when looking into a baby's eyes and know that it was created from your H. And you were not the one who gave him that gift. This is truly a gift to be shared between H and W and when that's taken away it kills a part of your soul.<P>I couldn't say if I can look the OC in my life in the eyes. It's due in February and I litterally feel sick when thinking about that time. I almost feel like it's my Armageddon. I would never resent any baby but just don't think I could see it without being torn apart inside. I could be wrong. But I guess I'll soon find out.<P>I have a lot of respect for you. Never thought I'd ever say that about any OW. It sounds as though you might be a bit nervous or worried that the W might want to become involved with OC. Is this something you could allow? Do you want this? I hope you keep posting. I hope you can teach other OW about what it's like to take responsibility and ownership of the pain they caused and respect the W as a woman even if it means it's at your expense. Take Care. <P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate<P>"Character is doing what's right, when no one is looking"

duranie,<P>i agree with what the other girls have said. i think i could stomach this whole thing a lot better if the OW in my case was even a little bit like you. <P>as for your question on the OC. we have no contact with her. she is almost 3. i feel bad about that sometimes, but it is my H's decision, not mine. i don't honestly think i could deal with it. i am not that nice of a person i guess. i actually feel kind of glad we have no contact. it would just be stressful for me. i must sound a bit selfish, me me me. but, it was my marriage she came into. and my H. and she shouldn't have had his child. if that is selfish, than i guess i am. maybe because i don't have my own kids yet, i don't understand. i guess i will have to let you all know when i do finally become a mommy.<P>thanks for your views duranie. wish our OW's were like you. then we might not need to come here to vent to often. unfortunately, i think you are the exception to the rule. you seem like a woman who made a mistake. not a woman who was purposely out to make other people's lives miserable. and you are brave. <P>happy_girl

Duranie: It impresses me that your first thought is of protecting MM's wife from any embarrasment, continued heartache or revelations. Of course, anonymity is a given. I am really just looking for your mindset, your POV, what you see as your responsibilities and why. <P>If you are troubled about the possiblity of the wife accepting your child into her life for her husband's sake, could the angst be due to fear that she may fall in love with the child and that there would suddenly be a custody battle? <P>I believe in the big scheme of things, the last thing most wives in situations like this, would rather eat ground glass than to have their husband's child in their lives on a full time basis. <BR>Besides, you're a good Mom and there's not a court in the land that would take your child from you on a whim of a MM with an alcohol problem. My husband's alcohol problem has the NY courts denying him even brief visitation, which is something he doesn't want anyway. <BR>Also, the MM may be drinking because of the devastating remorse and regret he must live with for hurting his wife and family, for your child and for you. <BR>He has to live with the horendous fallout that he has visited on so many, and so do you. You're just handling it by facing it, admitting it and moving forward and trying to be fair and not hurt anyone further, in fact, you seem to want to protect the wife from anymore heartache. <P>Women are generally stronger emotionally in many cases, I suppose, because they are bascially more mature and usually don't nuke their marriages intentionally by needing outside validation. I know, I know, there are scores of women betrayers on this forum but the ratio is probably 10 to 1. I'm talking generalities here anyway. What do I know.<P>BTW, does MM pick up child from you and immediately leave and take child to the park or to a friend's? What is a typical visitation like? Do you and MM ever chat or are there ever times when MM seems like he wants to be with you again? Just curious...inquiring minds want to know.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited August 12, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited August 12, 2000).]

Duranie,<BR>You are one in a million. Like everyone else has said if my OW was one-tenth of who you are, I would have a lot less problems. I have had no contact with the OC and to be perfectly honest I really don't put too much thought to it. I have nothing against him because he is a child and my heart doesn't work that way but I cannot handle it. Just seeing pictures of him is too painful. I commend you on being a woman plain and simple. You made a mistake and are handling your business while most of our OW are into playing games and continually trying to inflict pain on the Ws. Welcome Duranie!!!

I personnaly would never allow my child into a car with a man who is drinking & driving. I don't care what visitation he is allowed. I agree on getting a third party to be there when child is picked up. If there is any question about drinking, don't let child go.<P>This strickes home, since 11 years ago my brother fathered a child by OW just a few months after he married. Then he & his W had a child. Long story, but eventually he came clean about it to my SIL and they had visitation with child on regular basis. I think about my SIL often when I am making decisions on what to do about my situation (my SIL passed away a year ago & was good person). She had no problem letting this child into her life & perhaps since the child was about 6 at the time, it was not as difficult for her to explain who this child was. Lot's of folks could have presumed child was conceived prior to her marriage to my brother (unlike my situation where the OC will obviously be several years younger than my children). So perhaps the W in your situation will one day be able to tolerate OC being around when she is older. It is hard to say. Do they have children? She may not want OC around their children & find it too difficult to explain to them.<P>Also, my brother did drinnk heavily (is now sober) and often picked up this child while drunk. I was furious at the OW that she would put up with that. In their case she was demanding he see child & would up his child support when he didn't pick OC up. I could not imagine why she would do that do her child. But obviously she had her own agenda.<P>One thing that you may not know about me, but I am VERY suspicious of these men who feel they should be visiting child. In the long run their relationship with the child could only be confusing & possibly damaging. In my brothers case, the OC got very jealous of my brothers D (her relationship with her father, two parent household, things she had since her mother made very good money, etc.). And what if you marry? Perhaps your D could establish a parental relationship at that time with any future H you may have. The MM will just clutter picture. Anyway, I am just suspect of these men who feel that the best thing for child is them. I think they just have some issues on their own. Call me "too suspicious".<P>Carolyn

Duranie,<P>Like Catnip, I'm curious about a typical visit. Also, I commend you for taking responsibility (your part) for pain the W.<P>Taking Care,<BR> <BR>Speaking of suspicions (and when I ask you this you'll know what's really on my mind) - After your SIL passed, did a relationship begin between your B and OW?<p>[This message has been edited by CD (edited August 13, 2000).]

You guys asked questions and I am finally here with some answers....Sorry it took so long..<BR>BTW, I need to clear up something with you guys. When I say OC, I mean other children. We have 5 year old twins (boys). I kind of think of them as 1 I didn't mean to "delude" you...Sorry about that...One of these days, if you guys are interested, I'll post my "story". <P>A typical visit:<BR>Well, it is complicated.As I said,the only thing the W has asked for is that I not be there when he visits. I have obliged her on that. I really don't want any contact with MM at all. Like I said, he has been abusive to me if we even see one another for 2 seconds. In his mind, he literally can't handle that it is over between him and I. He feels it can't be over becuase of our connection(the twins). I can't handle it anymore so, I just avoid him like the plague. Lately I have even been having him use the neighbors as a drop of point so I don't have to talk to him. So, what happens (NOW because of his drinking) is that W drops off MM to my place, waits for me to leave and then she leaves. There is a park right by my house. So, MM takes the boys there or they visit in the house. She doesn't want him driving while he drinks either so, she handles the driving right now. While he is visiting, I do my grocery shopping, errands, etc. It gives me some time alone and it gives him some time with the boys. I give MM a call when I am done, he gives her a call and she comes to pick him up. I wait in the car until she gets there. It is all pretty much on the level.<BR>Before the drinking started, MM used to take the boys places, etc. <P>Who has knowledge:<BR>MM, W, my family and some of his fmaily. They have 2 kids and they don't know about it. When they get older, MM & W will decide whther or not to tell them about the twins. It is their decision not mine.<P>Fears:<BR>Yes, Catnip, you kind of hit the nail when you asked if I was fearful of a custody fight from them. I am. Right now W does not want to see or know anything about the boys. I am fine with that. I am just afraid of IF she were to develop an interest what would happen. MM LOVES these boys like crazy. He is not willing to give them up at all. I have cut off ALL contact with him (even in regards to the boys now which is not comfprtable for the boys at all). But, I am afraid of the future.....................<P>

Duranie,<P>Oh my gosh. If the man is drinking that much, what court in it's right mind would give custody to the man?! You have the neighbor(s) as a witness to this inability to stop drinking long enough to even visit the kids, right? Wow. So sorry to hear it. Sounds like HE's the crazy one in YOUR situation! Hope he gets some serious counseling.<P>BTW, what's the chances you'd email some sense into some other XOW with OC we know...?!

Guys,<BR>I am far from a saint you know?!?!?<BR>The only difference between me and other OW are that I acknowledge I screwed up (and it took 11 years and a major illness for me to get to that point) and that I take RESPONSIBILITY for my actions. Trust me, it is a long hard road I have traveled. It is just that because of my "past"(long story) I have learned that I can only depend on myself and I take that as my motto for life...Do you guys want to know my story?<BR>I'll post it, it is very "interesting" to say the least but, it will give you an insight as to WHY I am how I am.....<BR>As for the other OW, sure give me their emails. I'll enlighten them.. Like I said it is all about personal responsibilty. You either feel it or you don't. Unfortunatly, some people never feel it. Very sad indeed....<BR>PEACE..........

<BR>Duranie,<P>You are quite an exception among OWs w/OCs. A real standout. I am very impressed with your actions.<P>A couple of quick points - I realize that you signed a notarized agreement stating that you would never seek child support. I appreciate the intent, and I don't doubt your sincerity. But the fact is, you cannot negotiate away the children's right to support. If the MM was forced to litigate paternity, the courts can (and very likely WOULD) order a child support order against him. Your agreement is legally worthless, and I think you already knew that, really.<P>Second, unless you are an HIV+ prostitute injecting heroin in front of your kids, your odds of losing primary physical custody are zero. You will not lose a custody fight. Don't worry about it.<P>Bystander

Bystander-<BR>Literally, this agreement is set in stone.<BR>It was prepared by lawyers, notarized, etc.<BR>This was done 5 years ago and I have never looked back or regreted doing this. I have a copy, his lawyer has a copy, my lawyer has a copy and most importantly, MM and W have a copy.I know it is VERY hard to believe that this is true, but, it is....<BR>As I stated before, his name is on the birth certificates, so, there is no need for paternity to be established. Thus, there is reason for it to enter a court arena at all.<BR>I am NOT on any form of public assistance, etc. so it wouldn't enter court that way either. So, this agreement is legally enforceable. I am NOT interested in his $. If the need arises (and this has only occured one time in 5 YEARS and that was for diapers), MM will provide clothes, etc. for the twins. BUt, that is IF and only IF his W knows about it, his W agrees to it, etc, and he (or they) do the shopping. I do not want any $ handed over to me. They are my responsibilty and I take that seriously.<P>