Today is Sunday and my H and I stayed in bed until 2:00 in the afternoon. Calm those dirty minds down -- we were TALKING! We talked from 10 a.m. until 2:00 p.m.<P>My H told me that he lives in fear every day that I will keep relieving the whole affair and that eventually I will leave. He says he knows that he made the biggest mistake of his life and he does not believe that I can ever forgive him.<P>I was shocked because although we have talked pretty easily I did not know the depth of his emotion on this subject. He hates what happened with the OW and he says he just tries to put her completely out of his mind. He has now made a decision that he will continue financial support but does not want any contact at all with the OC. He says he has to put our marriage first and protect our children.<P>While I was naturally elated to hear the words, that middle-class, Christian side of me kept saying "You must be the world's most awful woman to actually be happy about a father severing all relations with his child..." It would be so much easier for us if the OC was not involved in his life at all, but I worry that he will resent me over time because he gave the OC up for me.<P>Maybe God is blessing me and I should just accept the blessing gratefully and keep my mouth shut. But, in the long run I worry that if he is putting up a front to please me, his feelings will get the best of him and he'll end up sneaking around to see the OC again.<P>Am I worrying too much? Should I just let him make his own decision on this matter and simply don't think about how he will feel in the coming months and years?<P>Let me know what you think?<P>- Heavenly

Wait a minute...Isn't yours the situation that your H has already been seeing the OC for several years???? How old is she now? I think that is different from never seeing a child he doesn't have a relationship with in the first place.

Jenny,<BR>My story is that my H saw the OC for the first year then the OW decided that she did not want child around me and cut off the visitation.<P>After the child was six years, the OW contacted my H at work to tell him that he could see the child. H started sneaking around to see the child. I found out recently about the sneaking around and was upset with my H that he had not been upfront with me about the situation. (Also, I was a bit upset because if he was sneaking to see the OC, I was not sure what kind of contact he was having with the OW.)<P>Child is 9 and she has not been involved with me since she was one year. My children have never seen her or known of her existence. <P>My H has continued seeing her but now that I know about the visitation he feels it has put a strain on our marriage (which it has). That is why now he has decided that it is not worth the risk to continue seeing the child. That is why I am confused at this point because he does already have a kind of relationship with her -- maybe not a great one -- but I feel it would be traumatic for both H and OC to suddenly sever all ties as if the child does not exist.<P>I realize, of course, that severing all ties would work great for me but I am concerned that, over the long term, my H will not be able to handle his decision and may start sneaking around again behind my back to see OC -- which will just start the bad feelings and upset all over again.<P>- Heavenly

Heavenly,<P>I feel for you. It was so hard to get my H to understand that I didn't have a problem with him seeing the OC, but I had a major problem with him "sneaking" to see him. That, to me, can open up an undesirable situation between him and the OW. They now have a "secret" between the two of them that you're not a part of. Totally Unacceptable!<P>What's your gut feeling? Do you think your H can let this OC go? (especially now that a relationship has started)

heavenly,<P>I am don't know what to say to you. One, I know how much easier it is not to have contact with the OC. But, I don't know how your h is going to drop contact. I mean this child is 9? That is going to be pretty rough on the kid also. I am not trying to make anyone feel bad. But what exactly is he going to say to this child, sorry I know you love me and I have been spending time with you, but not anymore. I think your concerns are correct. I am really curious how he is going to do that, and what he will say. Will he be strong enough to face that child without slipping? I am praying for you. That is a really tough place for both of you to be in. I am sorry if I didn't give you much help.<P>babstr.

heavenlyb,<P>again, I'm so sorry you're in this situation. It's heartbreaking. <P>Obviously it would be much easier for everyone if your H had been operating the last 6 years with a policy of joint agreement ala Dr. Harley. You and your H should be a TEAM! Now that your H and this child have had a secret, several-year (albeit flawed), relationship, I [flame me if you must] think the child's feelings should also be considered. Your H is about 9 years too late to be deciding he wants out! If people cannot be mature, RELIABLE, mostly loving people, they shouldn't get involved with a child. Is your H like my H, a (recovering) conflict avoider trying to keep different people happy at different times, or avoid them totally? You, him, the XOW, the OC...? It helps to recognize the problem and deal with it openly. <P>If your H suddenly cuts off contact, it's likely to emotionally scar the OC in some way. If you and he are going to agree that it is the only best thing for your family, I think perhaps your H could also consider paying for some counseling for this child, just as your kids might need counseling if you tell them. A counselor might recommend OC have a picture of your H with you and your kids to make it more real to her that he has a family he owes his loyalty to and that this real rejection of her is not "personal", and, like giving a kid up for adoption, under what if any circumstances your H would be willing to hear from her (needs medical info, or??). <P>I'm also having trouble imagining how your H could really "give up" this child when he already has a history of waffling about it! I think the child has a right to know where she honesty stands and to leave it that way until she's grown, not walk in and out of her life. I know it is difficult for you to accept this OC, but you might, with the help of a GOOD counselor, consider some healthy-boundary way of allowing some small relationship to continue with the OC, given that she already knows him. Ways that would assure you there is no contact with the XOW.<P>ALL my personal anger and resentment I direct toward to XOW, and sometimes, privately, the H I forgave, but not the OC. I've met a couple of OC prior to my H doing this and they seem to make sad adults, esp when they have many unanswered questions; I pity them all. <P>I think as our OC gets older, she might have some of XOW's traits/values/attitude that would make it difficult for me to have her around, but I'll handle that when and if that happens.<P>We have talked to counselors about the best way and time to tell our kids about the OC, and even if OC never visits (visits us--we will handle this together!), when our kids are older, we will tell them. I want to teach my kids by example that we can be honest as a family even about our worst failures, that we should feel shame for our wrongs, but that we can try our best to make them right and to forgive each other for honest repentance, and how to be discreet with outsiders (as one counselor put it, the bagboy doesn't need to know ). And to cast blame where it really belongs: the adults who made the mistakes, not the OC nor the legitimate children.<P>Sorry this got so long but I really am trying to help. Would be happy to share what our counselor said about dealing with children on this issue.

CD, Babstr and Jenny -- you seem to understand exactly where I am with this situation.<P>CD and Jenny -- it was the "sneaking" that ripped a whole in our marriage for the second time. I was never able to pinpoint the feeling but it was exactly as you describe -- it was my H having a secret with the OC and XOW. It was a second betrayal of our "team".<P>I am also curious, just like Babstr, about how he is going to look into the face of a 9yr old girl and say -- it's been great knowing you but I never want to see you again. And Jenny is right, his "waffling" history does not support that he will be able to keep up this front.<P>My H is definitely a recovering conflict avoider. Part of his problem is that he made decisions about the OC and did not think the consequences through. He thought I would never find out about the secret meetings and so in his mind, he was not hurting our marriage in any way. Now that I have found out and I am upset, he knows that the marriage is once again in jeopardy. He is now willing to do anything to ensure our happy home stays intact.<P>I may be a W in a bad situation but I am also human and I believe that the OC will be scarred by his total rejection. Already she has asked my H what is "wrong with her" that she is never included with our family. (She doesn't know that my kids don't know she exists)<P>I know it is not my concern but I also worry about what the XOW will do if my H stops seeing the child. XOW is extremely vindictive and has already done her best to portray ME as the villain to the OC.<P>Jenny I would love to hear of the techniques that your counsellor told you for dealing with children. I pray every day that I can find a way to open my heart to this little girl who has done absolutely nothing to me. <P>For now, I think I will explain my concerns to my H and try to make him think it through. I can't make the decision for him but I want him to at least face the consequences and understand that he may once again be screwing up a bunch of lives by making a poor decision.<P>Even what sounds like good news turns out to be a problem in this XOW/OC situation! I am so tired, I just wish it would all go away...<P>- Heavenly<BR>

Heavenly-(like your name!)<BR>I can give you my input if you are interested. All I can say is that(in MY opinion) what it seems like is that it is the sneaking around to see the OC that is hurting you more than H seeing the OC. If that is the case, I don't blame you one bit. You should not feel bad about not wanting him to see th eoC either. It is a horrid, real, concrete reminder of what happened to you marriage. Call it proof per say, that your H betrayed you... The best advice I can give to you is to have ano holds barred talk with your H. ASK HIM if he HONESTLY wants to see the child. If he says, no, than believe him and concentrate on your kids and marriage. If he honestly says YES, then tell him you wna to "supervise" the visitation. Do, what the W in my situation does. Take control of the visitation. Make your presense known to the OW. <BR>Good luck to you....<P>

sorry double post!<p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited August 15, 2000).]

duranie,<BR>the only problem with asking a conflict avoider what he "honestly" feels is, if he is still deeply into avoiding conflict, he'll still only say whatever he thinks she wants to hear!! <P>That's what I mean about bringing conflict avoiding out in the open as an issue and the importance of (Dr H theory) honesty and joint agreement. My H has agreed avoidance is a problem, honesty and joint agreement are important, and he's working on it. Some problems we've had with the XOW are because he let her think he wanted more contact(with then-unborn child) to avoid conflict w/XOW, and she's angry she was lied to!<P>heavenly, I'll post about kids next chance I get... out of time. Do something nice for yourself today! <BR>

heavenly,<BR>Watch out--this is long!<P>One example our counselor gave us was a family who brought their 2 teens, 14 and 16, into the counselor when the dad confessed the OC existance(who was younger and there was no contact at all, just ch/support). The dad did most of the talking but the mom and counselor were there. The dad told how sorry he was to have done this, to have set a bad example that contradicts what their family learns at church, he started to cry explaining how he had a good relationship with his teens but had had to leave this other child fatherless, hurt his wife, etc. The kids said they still loved both their parents, but the daughter told the counselor something like "those commercials you see on tv [about teen pregnancy, etc.], those are just fake, but this is real, this hurt real people, and I don't ever want to do that." The counselor thought it all went very well! <P>In our case (kids under 8yo, no current visitation with OC), the counselor said it is best if they not be told yet. If/ when there is some visitation with OC, then we will explain it, as we all feel family honesty is important. COunselor said at young ages kids tend to blame themselves for most things; like your OC, they will wonder what is wrong with them that something has happened. Adultery is a really complicated issue that even adults have trouble with, so it is best not to have to explain too much early on and confuse them; it will also bring up how babies are made, what 'family' means, and so on!! You'd have to be ready for all these issues... they will worry about different things than you do. If the OC needs to be explained to legit kids at a young age, it is important to emphasize that the ADULTS are 100% at fault and responsibility, that all kids are blameless. At the same time, we don't want to ask our kids to lie about OC, so if they are not at an age where they can be discreet as to who they tell what, we adults will have to decide what the "official" story is until they are older, be it something simple like calling the child a "friend","step-sister" or "a relative of H's" or be ready to deal with any public heat if the official story is the correct one--a child of adultery. Obviously you can't introduce the OC as a "cousin" or something when she already knows H is her father! <P>Re: 'our' other child, we have been told that since 'our' XOW wants permanent total custody and we are not willing to return to her state to share custody (always long distance), any short visitation would only tease and confuse the child until she is, maybe 6-7yo, can decide if she wants to get to visit us to know H, her 'dad'. Then we are open to having visitation, without contact with XOW. If XOW finds a guy before then who wants to marry/adopt OC, we will probably agree to that. Meanwhile, we send ch/support and mail occassional gifts to keep the channels open. We might do less if we thought the child were in a safe environment, but we're not sure she is.<P>Important in honesty is the idea that you probably want to tell your kids before they get old enough to hear it somewhere else!! My first cousins were contacted in high school by a girl in the next town who had been, unknown to them, fathered by their father! He paid child support but never saw her, and she finally got so curious she contacted her half-siblings! <P>I'm not happy that my H did this, but since we have to deal with it, I want to put the best spin on this for my kids that I can. I think we can make it clear that what daddy did was WRONG, hurt lots of people, was entirely his (and XOW's) mistake, and that honest repentance can mean forgiveness and love... That we are not bad people, just good people that sometimes make bad mistakes, that we can still love each other even when we disagree...(including when the kids make mistakes or do something we disagree with!)... That we can get help from books and professionals so that we can behave in healthier ways...<P>That's all I can think of for now. <BR>Please let me know if this helps or if it's not clear.<BR>Best wishes,<BR>Jenny

Jenny, i just want to say that's very<BR>good advice re: when, how, what to say<BR>about oc. In our case we dont even know<BR>for sure, but I still am struggling w/<BR>how to deal w/ it where my kids are <BR>concerned.There are so many important<BR>issues to tackle.<P>Good Luck to you Heavenly, my prayers<BR>are with you.<P><BR>

Thanks Jenny for the marvelous ideas on coping with this subject. And thanks, Fluke, for your good wishes.<P>Deciding whether or not to tell my children has been an equally difficult issue. As you said, I mostly want to be sure that they are secure and that they understand this does not change their relationship with their father or his love for them. <P>For now, I think I will go along with my H and not say anything to them. As you said they are young and these are complicated emotions. And the point you made about coming up with a story is an excellent one. I do not want to manufacture a lie for them to tell others, nor do I want to make them feel embarrassed for having to share a "secret". <P>I am very open with my kids and what I may start doing is discussing blended families with them whenever an opportunity presents itself -- like while watching tv - to let them know that children can have step-siblings and half-siblings, so that they get comfortable with the concept.<P>I also feel that if I am going to make them secure about the situation, I will first have to be solid ground. If they are interested in their sister, want to see her, want to include her in family events -- well, I have to be prepared to do that or it will set a very negative tone for the kids.<P>I constantly tell my H that this not the path I would have chosen to "improve" our marriage and communication, but since I have this basket of lemons I intend to make lemonade. The one very constructive thing I have learned through the years is to stop wasting my time wishing that things were different.<P>They are not. And they are not going to be. So, I have made a conscious decision to accept the bad with the good and I am sticking to it. Thanks for your wonderful advice, Jenny, it has put my head in the right direction on the subject of kids.<P>Bless you all, I don't know how I survived without you guys,<BR>- Heavenly

Oh Heavenly, I'm so happy to be of some help! Really! This stuff sucks so bad it's beyond words, but like you said it can't be changed; we can try to make lemonade! That's great!<P>I like the idea of pointing out different kinds of families and easing into the areas this situation will bring up later--very bright! I guess I've been doing that, too--half-sibs, etc. My oldest loves to watch the news and I keep waiting for him to ask us what "adultery" or "affairs" (ala Clinton or whoever) are when it comes up in the news, but he hasn't. I'm curious to see how much he "gets it" yet.<P>Let us know if you have any kid-breakthroughs to share! I'm still collecting ideas!<P>Oh PS, I really hope your H makes a decision to talk about this with the OC. It breaks my heart to hear a child ask "what's wrong with me?" when it's her parents at fault! One of them ought to clear it up for her.<P>Best wishes!<BR>J