Okay - Tuesday (of this week) got phone bill from when my H went to Vegas. Strange # on phone bill to Atlanta. Turned out to be a hotel (at the airport) where he flew out of to go to Vegas. Did investigation - and guess who had a room at that hotel? OW. Well my H lied lied lied and denied denied denied. So - knowing that he didn't even bother to come see me before he left but YET he would make "time" for her, etc. etc. just put me over the edge. I went home got some of my stuff and left him a note to get his stuff out within 24 hours. I went to my sister's. It is now Thursday; I stayed again at my sister's because he STILL hasn't got his stuff out. He has called me multiple times - haven't spoken to him until today (by accident, I answer the phone occasionally at work and he called and I answered) anyway, he proceeds to ask why I'm avoiding him and then explains this: He did call her when he was in Vegas (finally admitted), but claims he didn't know where she was at, etc.; didn't know what she was doing there or whatever, never saw her, yada yada yada. Why do I always jump to the wrong conclusions, etc.<P>Okay guys - I just need validation that I'm not crazy - (by the way he ended up hanging up on me) BUT he always does this to me - convinces me that "it is possible" that it was a coincidence that she would be there spending the night in a hotel at the Atlanta Airport on the same night as HE is flying back into Atlanta! That right there is why I need to stay away from him - he has had me hooked for so long that I honestly think 'well, I guess it could be possible?' What is wrong with me - Anyone with a brain would know that it's utter bullls*&%. Why is it that when there is facts - the phone bill - the hotel confirmed that there was a reservation and stay in her name that night - why then will he not admit this and work on "fixing" his problems with lying, etc.? My therapist believes he has an antisocial behavior disorder - of course that is simply from my descriptions of the things he does - but she said he is totally removed from reality. I want to go home - I want him out - so I can be in my home - I'm not the one that cheated and lied and lied - and guys that was one (1) months ago - one (1) month ago - this crap is still going on! Geez Please help me - tell me I'm not crazy.<P>------------------<BR>

Hi DayCare,<P>I am so happy to see you gain your inner self back. <P>If you really want to move back home than do that. You can always pack his stuff, set it out in the drive and change the locks. IF you would rather not go to the massive expense of changing the locks than get them re-keyed. (I did that when I purchased my new house).<P>Let him worry where he is going to stay. I also suggest you send him the Plan B letter. Outlining what he must do to prove he is serious about this marriage. Second, I would go ahead and follow through on the hot check issue with OW. Let them both know that you will no longer tolerate this situation.<P>You are such a wonderful person who does not deserve this. Actions speak so much louder than words. If you show each time something occurs than he will know you are serious and he will learn the ground rules. <P>Daycare understand there is nothing wrong with having boundries. We all have boundries some more than others. I suggest you find what you can live with and can not live with. Then stick to your guns. It is not just you he is doing this too he is letting your Daughter think that she should tolerate this behavior as well.<P>Both of you deserve better treatment. Trust me Daycare you are worth it!<P>Once you are back in the house use caller ID to see who is calling. Maybe ask your sister down to visit for a bit. She might like the change to take her mind off her problems.<P>

Daycare you are not foolish. When the one you love for so long looks you in the eyes and explains a situation away you don't want to think the worse of that person.<P>This does sound a little fishy. You should continue with your plan B. But I would suggest just asking him to leave as you did. If he doesn't pack his things, pack them for him. When he gets home tell him to get them out and you leave. It's hard enough on you, without having to watch him walk out the door. Ask him for some time. Time alone. Tell him you fear for your health and just need to be alone for a while. If he's truly worried about losing you taking this approach might give him some security that you aren't leaving him for good. Whether that's what you decide to do or not. Obviously it will be hard to monitor your H wearabouts while he's gone but at least you won't have to witness the betryal over and over and over again. Even if what he said was true. He shouldn't even be in touch with her at all. Weather she was there or not. There should have been NO call. No returned call. Right? <P>I'm so sorry for you DD. I know how painfull this is. Sometimes I feel as though I can barely walk I feel so exhausted by everything. Try to be strong. Your little girl needs you. More than anything right now. I'll be thinking of you. Let us know how it goes.<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate<P>"Character is doing what's right, when no one is looking"

Boy, Daycare! Your H can't even lie well!!<P>So, he called her but he didn't know where she was, huh? PUHLEEEZE!!!! Like he just called the SAME hotel where she was so he could talk to whoever picked up the phone, huh?<P>BALONEY!!!!<P>I'm with the others. Write him a Plan B letter, go home and pack his stuff, set it all outside, and change the locks. Actually, I think I'd change the locks first so he couldn't come in while I was there. Tell him that if he doesn't leave you alone while he's still involved with OW, you'll get a restraining order...that you'll talk to him ONLY when he is finished with her.<P>And, yes, since he's pulled this stunt, go after her for that bad check.<P>Let him know that you are one strong woman!!!<P>He'll keep trying to worm himself back into your good graces without doing what he needs to do because he's done it before. Show him that you're totally fed up!<P>I'm proud of you, DD! You <B>GO</B>, girl!!!

DD, honey...<P>Trust yourself and know you are valid in your suspicions. Your husband is apparantly a sociopath and has the ability to lie and deny, lie and deny and cover up, feel nothing for what he is putting you through, and then has the gall to try to convince you of the absurd...that it was all a coincidence.<P>I am so grateful you have reached your saturation point and are unwilling to take one more moment of his blatant and amazing deceit.<P>I agree with the others on this site that you should move home and remove his belongings and set them in the driveway on fire...did I say 'on fire'...ooops. I mean, just set them in the drive way and don't let him in the house.<P>Really, DD, right now you must not waver from what you beleive is true no matter what he says to try to convince you otherwise. He's been 'enjoying' playing the two of you for years now. It's time to turn him loose and find some happiness for yourself.<P>A strict Plan B may make him turn around, but in his case, it would need to be a long Plan B, signed in blood, etc.<P>Stay strong, beleive and trust in yourself and know we are here for you...we will do everything we can to help you through this...it's going to be hard and I know how he gets to you...just remember what he's put you through already and the incredible lies he's told you over and over and how he has hurt you and detroyed your life for so long now. You must take care of yourself and Chyna.<P>Love<P>Catnip =^^=

(((((DD)))))))<P> No! No! You are *not* crazy! don't let him do to you what my xH did to me. i swear, my x was a lot like your H. I literally thought that I was nuts. I would catch him in the most obvious bull hockey, and he would make me feel like I had lost my marbles, by completely and blatantly lying to me. And he even *told* me that I was crazy, paranoid, delusional, etc, etc, etc.<P> I ditto everything that the others have mentioned. Although, I probably wouldn't be so charitable as to how I deposited his belongings in the driveway. (Think fish guts, lol, I know, major LB )<P> And, definitely follow through on that check escapade. <P> You are not crazy, and you let him know it!<P> Okay, I'll stop, now. <BR>~~Mynabird

DD,<BR> You aren't crazy, but your H is to treat a person like you that way. I agree with the fire in the driveway idea, or do like that one girl in the movie "Waiting to Exhale", where she sold all his stuff (skis, wine collection, etc) for a dollar a piece. I believe she also set his clothes on fire in his BMW, but I wouldn't recommend that. <BR> Oh, and about the bum check, nail that heffer to the wall. Press charges for passing a fraudulent check, or whatever it is. Being for over 3500, it's definitely a felony offense. Tell her you want to see if wearing stripes is really slimming, and you want her to be the model!!! Get the b****!!!! Good luck.

I agree with everyone. You can do it. Take his stuff and dump it on her lawn, I am sure she would appreciate that! I wish I could help you back his things, then you wouldn't be alone on this. Stay strong, I am praying for you!<P>babstr.

Guys - thanks so much - you are really great! I went home yesterday - and truly he had not taken his things out. So I was furious and commenced to get his stuff together and then I thought - "I hate the OW truly for keeping on this crap for so long" so I called her and she didn't answer (I know it was stupid I was weak) and I left her a message that I hope she and my H had a great time in Atlanta and that she would have more fun too look forward to in her jail cell!" Ha- then my H showed up a little while later (wanting to see our D) and he asked me why I called OW - and I told him it was none of his business (see she has to run to him to save her). So nonetheless OW called me and I answered and she wanted to know why I WOULDN'T LEAVE ALL THIS CRAP ALONE, etc. etc. I asked her what she was doing in Atlanta, etc. (I know stupid move again) and she kept saying it was none of my business - but then she finally said that she was in Atlanta for a Bachelorette party and stayed at a hotel because it was too late to drive home afterwards (?) Guess it's possible - but who cares at this point. I'm PMS and did a lot of screaming and carrying on - cried and acted like a big idiot - I'm so scarred from all this abuse - she said she did page my H and he called her back from Vegas, but she never saw him - she had to be back to TN by 11:00 to pick up OC and she never did see him (which is possible, I guess). Anyway, I told him the whole bottom line was he was not willing to put any boundaries in regards to her - she can call for no reason and just talk or whatever - he said that if "she needs him" for something about the OC then she has every right to call him - and I said "well, you know I can't live with that so we're at a stale mate." I acted like a big total fool/idiot. Letting him see how much he still means to me and letting him see how much hurt he can place on me - that's why its dangerous for me to be around him - I turn into an emotional wreck. He said he would get his stuff and leave - so I took our D to get some fast food and came back - he was still there - she and I ate and she went to play with her dad and I went and got in her bed and slipped away into oblivion. This a.m. he was still there - had slept with our D in our bed. We had words again and I begged him to simply leave me alone and to leave - which he said he would do today. I told him I wanted to be at our home because of our D and that if he cared about her he would simply leave and quit putting me and she through this. He said he would. (we'll see). I told him I'd change the locks if he didn't - and he said then he would have them changed again - (see how he is so manipulative). I did ask an attorney I work with and they said that you "technically can't do that - it's still his home" - I'm just totally emotionally drained today - I should have went straight to my sisters and not even attempted to go home. Thoughts?<P>------------------<BR>

I've never posted to you but I have kind of followed your story -Anyway-<P>Do you really think your marriage has a chance? I know you still love him but I don't see any love for you in his actions. I think you need to stop letting him engage you in these emotional confrontations. Hopefully he will leave this time but if he doesn't and you want to stay in the house (and I think you have every right to) you should file for legal separation. That is probably the only way he will get that you will no longer tolerate the situation. I would state this to him in as non-emotional way as possible. That you are tired of the situation, that you and your daughter need to have some normalcy. I just think that without the legal separation he will continue to manipulate you and the whole situation indefinitely.<P>There is a thread on the "General Questions"<BR>about WS who are on the fence. You might want to read it. It advocates a "Tough Love" approach. Hey DD, you know you've tried everything and it has not worked so maybe time to try something new.<p>[This message has been edited by TMD (edited August 18, 2000).]

Hi DD,<P>Might I suggest a couple of things.<P>First,never talk to the OW again. I mean this. She could place a restaining order on you for haresment. Just do it and be done with it. Your H should be the one to tell her it is over. He never will if he thinks he can have the both of you. You have to be strong and actions speak louder than words. Always have and always will.<P>Second, Do not have him change the locks. Get them re-keyed or what ever. The point is that if he changes the locks he will keep a key. Take a day off from work. Make an appointment with a lock smith or even a friend who knows how. While that is being done pack his bags. He will never pack his bags as long as he thinks he can manipulate you. Set his bags out on the curb. Do not let him in the house. Have someone who will help you remain strong stay with you for a few days or weeks even. <P>I know how hard it must be for you. I am sure you still love him very much. The problem is that this relationship is not healthy for you. Stop the cycle. He is abusing you. You may not have physcal scars or damage but emotional is by far worse. <P>Now, you need to go back to that lawyer and have him/her write up a seperation agreement. This does not mean you are heading down to the big D. It just means that you are protecting yourself and your rights to his money. If I remeber correctly little OW does not have a child support settlement. Better get yours in first. She can have the leftovers for a change. <P>Third, write the Plan B letter. I really think you need to let him know what he has to do to win you back. Let him know what a wonderful person he is going to loose. Understand that you have choices on all this as well. You do not have to take him back. I really think you should do a 180. He expects for you to beg for his return. Do not do this.<P>Fourth, find out who you are. I mean really take this time to find you again. After all that emotional abuse it is time that you like you again. I mean love you. For such a long time you have allowed this behavior to occur that you probably lost site of who you are.<P>Your daughter needs stability. You need stability. Please understand I am just trying to help. I hope I have in now way affended you.<P>I understand exactly how you feel. Tony emotionally abused me for so long that I just started to doubt myself all the time. I still do. The difference is that I stoped allowing him to do it. I have set very short boundries for Tony. I still have a hard time and working through a lot of issues but I know one thing for sure. I never in a million years deserved this treatment. I know something else neither do you.<P>You are a wonderful person and you really need to start commanding respect. Try very hard to not let your emotions to get in the way. It is like chess you have to plan your strategy and act upon it. DD I know very well where you are...I am digging myself out of that hole right now.<P>(((((((((((((((DD))))))))))))))))

Okay, someone help me with a Plan B letter? What is the purpose and what all should or should not be included in such? (I'm too drained to look for an example)<P>------------------<BR>

DD:<P>Pahakissa has given you the very best advice I have heard so far and I hope you were listening and will follow her lead. She has been where you are now.<P>If you need help with a Plan B letter, I will jot some thoughts down later tonight when I get home and have more time to be thoughtful and e-mail them to you. They will be just some suggestions that you can pick and choose as they may apply.<P>Stay strong, DD, and listen to the wonderful love, support and advice you are getting. It just may save your life...and Chyna's.<P>Catnip =^^=

Hi DD,<P>If I was to write a Plan B letter these are the following items I would include:<P>-- First I would start off explaining how I would hope the marriage could work out.<BR>-- Explane how I love him but can no longer tolerate the situation.<BR>-- I would lay down the ground rules of what must be done for me to consider us getting back together.<BR>-- First all contact with OW would have to stop.<BR>-- Child care for OC will have to be defined. Such as child support, third party pickup that both of you agree to, and above all no talking to OW about OC. Third party or you takes the messages regarding OC. He should never ever in a million years talk to OW again.<BR>-- He needs to stop the lying and manipulation. He can only be nothing but honest. (but then if he is honest you have to promise that you will not get overly emotional when you hear something you do not like)<BR>-- mention a lot of the good times you had together. (let him know there was a reason why the two of you got married)<BR>-- Outline a third party for him to see your child. Have that third party also relay messages. I think you should not see nor communicate with him at all durring Plan B. Just because he does manipulate you. <P>Right before you hand him the Plan B letter you need to talk to a laywer. A really good one. Get the seperation agreement and child support lined up. Please understand this does not mean you will get divorced but it will protect you financially. Plus get that child support lined up. Because your daughter deservise the money not hers.<P>Also understand this. It gets worse before it gets better. He will not like the new you at first. He will probably resent the new boundries. He will do anything and everything to manipulate you because for three years he had his cake and ate it too. Do not fall in the trap becuase then you have to start all over again. Trust me he will learn soon enough what you will and will not tolerate. <P>Once you give an ultimatim you have to follow through. You can not wabble becuase than he will continue to mainipulate. I am sure you do not want that. <P>Every sane relationship has boundries plus respect for each partner in the relationship. You need to let him know that the lying and manipulation about OW has got to stop.<P>That is what I would put.

DD,<P>I will tell you one thing. I found out that if I would have gone to child support and filed for it before the OW, she would have been second instead of first. You need to do that with the separation papers. Otherwise you are not going to get much if she goes first. <P>I don't know what to say, I agree with all the advice you are getting. I do think that you are being abused over and over. you have to stop it, only you. He doesn't seem to care that much about you in his actions and words towards you. You do not deserved to be treated like this, no one does, remember that. I am praying for you. Stay away from the OW, you need to follow through with the law on the check, not just threaten to. Did you tell your h about that?<P>babstr.

DD:<P>I just E-mailed to you a sample Plan B letter but it lacks many of the things Pahakissa mentioned. Use her suggestions to guide you through this (she's really good at this) and write your Plan B letter according to the format she described.<P>You sure have a lot of support and people pulling for you. The advice you are getting is stellar...<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

DD, just wanted to drop you a line to remind you that you and your D are in my prayers. be strong. you have come so far, don't let him do this to you anymore. you deserve more than what he is giving you. and so does your D. take care, and my thoughts are with you.<P>happy_girl

DD,<P>Just wanted to let you know I've been keeping up, and you are in my prayers.<P>CD

Just to let you know that I am here for you in any capacity that I can be. You are in my prayers!!!