Steve,<P>I'm not sure of your complete situation although a while back, at JL advise, I did look up some of your previous postings.<P>I am sorry that you and your wife are seperated now and she is with the OM. That must be very difficult for you.<P>My situation may have been different in the fact that I didn't have a long term affair and was never "with" the OM for any time. Because my H & I were so far apart in our relationship when my transgression occured it did cross my mind to me to leave him and seek what it was that I really wanted in life. I couldn't continue a relationship outside my marriage as I felt terribly guilty for even beginning one.<P>The reason I was so sure that my husband was the right choice and why I didn't leave was because he is such a good and caring man. My whole life I believed that it was hard to be with a "nice guy". Mostly because a lot of nice guys are boring. My father once told me if you first meet a guy and all the bells and whistles go off immediately, turn and walk away. He said most times it will not work. Not to say that if you are very attracted to your spouse it won't work, just that if the physical is the only attraction, it leaves little else. You must have the same interest, same goals, same desires, same beliefs. Some of that comes with time and maturity (at least it did on my part. The "complete agreement" policy that Dr. Harley speaks of is right on. It is a partnership. My error's have only shown that to be true. My emotional needs were not being met and I wasn't meeting all of those for my H either. <P>If I had followed my father's advise some years ago, I may have saved my self and a few others some time & grief. (by the way, my father has been a counselor for over 20 years, although he and I agree that he doesn't wear the counselors hat for our relationship.) <P>What I've found in my husband is he is very much in love with me and very devoted. I love him very much as well and want to be totally devoted to him too. While we both understand that it is going to take work and time to heal the mess I've made of our relationship we both have the most important ingredient, IMO, LOVE.<P>I feel a million things right now for what is going on in my and my H's life right now and the baby and I didn't mean to ramble on. I'd be happy to share anything I can with you, if it would help.<BR> <BR>God Bless,<P>Positive Outlook

...<p>[This message has been edited by Beerman2 (edited September 13, 2000).]

Steve,<P>I'm sure that things Cannot go on the way they are. I'd never think that anyone especially you, or your W, or even OM would want to be in that type of turmoil for long. It isn't healthy for anyone to go through the "indecision" part of it for any length of time. It's no wonder that your W & OM are fighting and why would she want to be there if he is unsupportive, etc?? <P>As I said, I did go through the time, thinking of divorce, especially because I was sure my husband wouldn't want me anyway. But I also thought about the, I love him but am not in love with him, for a while. What I realized and Dr. Harley really talks a lot about this in his concepts is the fact that with out the proper things given to each partner of a marriage that we cannot stay in love. My H was willing to look at what those things were, and so was I. That is how we have managed to mend (some what). I don't know if your W is to that point or not.<P>I have to say that no, there was not one key item at which I knew that I wanted to re-build my marriage. It was a combination of things that both my H & I discovered about one another. That we LIKE each other was a biggy. We have a lot in common. We share many of the same goals in life, beliefs and feelings. We both realize that while there are a lot of great people out there, finding one that you can be good friends with and love too isn't easy. There's also that little pesky thing called "committment" and marriage is the ultimate. We both realize that and as several others pointed out to me that in the future when we talk to this child that "for better or worse" arn't just words that you can work through problems, even the major ones.<P>Guilt, WOW, that has and still is a really big issue for me. The worst thing is whenever my H asks me specifics about my affair, I tell him honestly and willingly whatever he wants to know but I truely believe that it hurts me as much as him. Not that I don't deserve this, it is just that I seem to be unable to get over the guilt of what I did. He say's that he has forgiven (not forgotten) me for what I've done and the work ahead will not be easy. I went through several weeks of unbearable guilt where the work on our relationship was near impossible. I couldn't get past it. Perhaps this is where your W is?? I don't know, but I have found a little relief through spiritual guidence and my higher power, God. I still have bad dreams, and feel very guilty on a daily basis. I know that when I feel this way it is hard for my husband, because he knows it hurts me and then he wants to comfort me. Kind of like what you said with your W. Now, when this happens, I feel good that my H loves me enough to want to comfort me even for pain that I have caused, however, it actually makes me feel WORSE!! I know that sounds dumb, but it truely makes me feel more guilt because he tries to comfort me. So, the guilt is a real issue that I would strongly suggest your W get some sort of proffessional or spiritual guidence with. <P>Are you two working with a counselor or working through any of the Dr. Harley MB concepts?? Printing a few of them out and then working them together really helped us realize what we were missing and even if we had the potential to offer one another the emotional needs that we each had to have. I'd sure suggest to anyone to do those if you havn't already.<P>Most of all, communication is vital. Without the hours of tears, talking and soul bearing that my H & I did, we'd be not very far along. I hope your W can be honest with you about what she feels, and I pray for your sake that she isn't stringing you along. We've all read other posts of people going through those issues and it only causes more hurt and damage to the marriage. Try to get her to talk freely and be honest with her as well about how you feel.<P>I don't know what the future holds for my H & I and this baby. I do know that I love my H very much and I know that he loves me. I think that we can rebuild the "in love". I only hope that you can get to a point with your W that you know what she is thinking and truely feeling. I think you need and deserve that.<P>I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers and hope that the situation can move in a positive direction for you. <P>I'll be off line until Monday but would certainly be happy to help or just talk if it would be of any assistance to you. I still feel like I'm really messed up too, but moving in the right direction and perhaps we're just a little blessed.<P>Take care & God bless,<P>Positive Outlook

Positive Outlook:<P>Probably a really stupid question, but, do you ever wish with all your heart that this child belonged to you and your spouse and that the OM never existed? Or do you secretly hold dear that the child belongs to OM so that you can keep a piece of him forever in your life?<P>I've often wondered about the dynamics of what it is like for the wayward spouse to know they have someone else's child growing inside them or in my husband's case, growing inside someone else...I know I delve too much into the meat of things sometimes, but, I worry about the 'connection' to the OP.<P>I long to have my husband tell me that he wishes we would have had our own child and that he wishes he never would have met the OW and that I were the one to have the child. Ugh. So insecure sonmetimes. Hearing those words would be so healing for me. Perhaps they would be healing for your husband to hear as well.<P>I better surface for air before I really screw up my thinking.<P>Catnip =^^=

...<p>[This message has been edited by Beerman2 (edited September 13, 2000).]

Catnip,<P>Sorry I couln't answer sooner, I've been out of town.<P>When you secretly wish that you H felt that way, about wishing it was you that was carring his baby, I know that my H feels that way. We have discussed it many times. Because we were thinking of AI anyway, we've talked many times about how I really messed up what should have been a really happy time for us.<P>Yes, I wish with all my being, all my heart and all that I am that I NEVER met this OM and I NEVER made such a stupid mistake that almost cost me the love of my life, my H. I know we are not over even half of the bumps that will come. We had another really hard night last night. He has bad dreams. I feel so guilty that all I can do is still try to pray for forgivness and that his dreams be taken away from him. He has been so great in trying to work through this. <P>I wish with all my heart that this baby was his. Chances are like 99% that it isn't. But, as JL suggested, and if my H wants to I'll be willing to do a paternity to know for sure. His genes are strong and he is very worried that when this child is born it will not look like him and every one will know that truth. I try and tell him that this baby could look like me! Wow, wouldn't that be a concept. I also tell him that it seem like he thinks that when this baby is born every one will take one look and GASP outloud!! I think that is just projecting a future we cannot control. While I really understand his feelings and as I said feel so guilty more time than I'll admit, I am blessed that we are working through some of it.<P>Please be assured that if you H feels for you like anything that I feel for my H than he totally regrets what he did and wishes with all his heart that things were not the way they are. Unfortunatly we cannot change the past or our mistakes. We must ask for forgivness, if our S is willing to try to work it out with us than we are VERY lucky. As I am and your H is. <P>I pray that you and your H can work through all of this and come to a stronger place.<P>Take care,<P>Positive Outlook

Dear Positive Outlook,<P>Please tell your husband that most people will look at him and your child, and see the relationship, see his love, see the bond between father and son. They do not (usually) focus on the genetic relationship and features of the child, even though they might discuss them from time to time.<P>I know, because my youngest is not (biologically speaking) my child, and he looks almost exactly like OM, and very little like me. Sound like your worst nightmare? Hardly anyone notices, and if they do, they just assume that it is a fluke. I have had people tell me how this beautiful boy looks like me. And others have commented (innocently) about how he resembles a child of OM, but never put two and two together. Our presumption of paternity is so strong that we interpret what we see in light of the relationships that we know about.<P>And if they do figure out what happened? If someone looks at you husband and figures it out? He needs to reflect about what, in that scenario, frightens him. Because what they would see is a man who has stepped up and given love to a child in a very difficult situation, a man who understands fatherhood in a deeper way than most people ever will.<P>I have worried too. I understand some of his fear. But once the child is here, parenting just takes over. My son loves me and cries when I leave. He is always running up to hug me. When your husband can feel that love (and of course it will take many months to develop), the fears will all look smaller by comparison.<P>I wish you both well.<P>StillTrying.

Still Trying,<P>Thanks SO much for the input. It really helps. I'll try to get my H to read it later. Maybe he'll even post with me. I've asked him a few times and said that perhaps it would really show him that his isn't the only one out there in this situation. <P>At the least I'll pass on your words of experience. I'm so glad things are working out for you.<P>Middleman answered my question on the "telling the child of paternity" see the post. And I was wondering if you and your W have discussed, come to a decision on this yet? All the help is appreciated. One thing is for sure, I'll be honest. It only makes sense after listening to every one here & there experiences and thoughts and views. At first I wasn't sure what the best option would be.<P>God Bless,<P>Positive Outlook (SW)

Dear Positive Outlook,<P>Hi! We are still working on what to tell, and when to tell it. So I don't really have any answers for you. My wife and I have come to a few firm conclusions so far, but need to figure the rest out. I did think, at first, that we would keep it all as a deep, dark secret, and only tell him when he was an adult, but a year of thought and discussion has changed my mind. Our current thoughts are:<P>(1) Do not lie to your child. Do not let them grow up in the shadow of a big secret. Your husband and all other betrayed spouses can tell you how much it hurts to have your view of the past shattered, to realize that the life you thought you were living was not the one that your loved ones understood.<P>(2) Tell you child from a very early point that his or her father is not his biological father. How? I don't know. Our son is still too young for such a conversation to even register. Perhaps explain that some children have parents who are related genetically, and (occasionally) others have parents who aren't related genetically. If they are too young for that concept, they are too young for the discussion.<P>Why do we want to tell early? Because we want him to grow up knowing and accepting the idea, so that it doesn't come as a big, earth-shattering surprise. So that he doesn't feel that we deceived him.<P>(3) Don't give unnecesary details, but do answer your child's questions honestly and carefully. We don't (yet) have any experience here, and don't know if he will just accept things and go back to playing, or ask why, or ask if he is different from his siblings or what? But we have been advised by therapists not to overwhelm him with details. The time for those will be when he is old enough to ask about them himself, and wants to understand.<P>The complicating factor for us is that he has older siblings, so they will have to know something about it too. Some people have advised discussing this shortly before adolescence, when they are old enough to understand sexual issues, but not yet caught up in the full flowering of their own sexual maturation and adolescent rebellion. That makes sense to us, but we haven't had to do anything yet.<P>You should have lots of time. Take it to re-connect with each other, and to connect with your new baby. We have certainly appreciated being able to put this one off.<P>Best wishes,<P>StillTrying<P>PS — you suggested saying that your child takes after you. It took me a long time to realize that that was the simplist response to any discussion of his looks (and it works really well). I guess you are pretty quick about these things.<P>PPS - you have probably read enough letters here to know what a special and rare thing your husband is planning on doing - opening his heart and life to an OC (to use the abbreviation favored on the board). Not many people are able to make that leap; he sounds like a wonderful man.

My situation is a little different but I heard somthing one time and I really liked the meaning in it. It was in reference to an adopted child but it is the same concept. The parents were questioned by the child on the difference between himself and his parents and the other children abd their parents. The answer was something to the effect of....some children are grown in their mommy's tummy...other children are grown in their mommy's (or daddy's) heart.<BR>Anyway I thought that was really sweet.<BR>God Bless...<p>[This message has been edited by broken_wings (edited September 11, 2000).]