I just came home from Church and once again the priest seemed to speak directly to me during his sermon. He talked about the need to open one's heart and ask God to heal the past and offer forgiveness. <P>He kept saying "the past is gone. No matter how much you want to, you cannot change one thing that has already happened". He also said that everyone has something in their past they would like to change and in his list of possibilities he mentioned infidelity.<P>Every time I hear one of these sermons, my thoughts drift back to the OC in my life. Unlike those who have never experienced this situation, every one of you reading this knows what that OC represents -- the pain, sadness, humiliation, defeat -- all of the complicated emotions that say at one point in your life you failed at your most important mission - marriage.<P>My emotions are even more complicated because at the time the OC was born, I was desperately trying to have a chid and had been doing infertility treatments and surgeries for more than two years. She reminds me of the most hopeless time in my life.<P>You also know what it is like to want to please your H and make your marriage work again - better than ever. In my H's heart, I believe he wants to keep an eye on the OC and make sure that she makes it through childhood. I know he feels guilty and regretful because she will never have the quality of life of our two children.<P>Some of you have succeeded in opening your heart and letting that OC in. And as I sit here this Sunday morning, I feel that my life will never be at peace if I don't let that OC in. <P>I don't want to live in fear that she will pop up on my doorstep and tell my kids what my H did. I don't want my kids to find out about her at their father's funeral and destroy his memory and the lives that he built with them. My kids, like most kids, worship and adore their father. He can do no wrong in their eyes.<P>I am tired of being torn about this issue. And, I feel that my H will sneak behind my back again and see the OC eventually. He is not doing it now, but I don't think he can keep up this facade of "not caring" for long.<P>How do we do it friends? How do we resolve this issue in our minds and hearts once and for all? I want to be hopeful that I could manage to include this OC in my life. But, I know from experience that some decisions made when the roller coaster is up high in the sky, come back to hurt me when the roller coaster comes crashing down. <P>Please help, any advice and guidance would be greatly appreciated.<P>Suffering ...<BR>- Heavenly<BR>

how can this be that we are on the same page this morning?<P>I need to let this child in my life<BR>but like you said the child represents all that hurt pain and humilation for me<P>the child is a boy and we have three girls<BR>we tried to have a boy until my health wouldn't allow for another child<P>I just found out recently that my h has been <BR>going over to visit child without my knowing<BR>he was giving ow money for the child.<BR>I don't mind about the money but i only wanted no contact between ow and my h.<P>ow has told me she still loves my h and i don't know what to do at this point<BR>i want to throw my h out on the street<BR>but this is exactly what ow would want<BR>any suggestions

Dear hurting,<P>Boy, have I been there... My H was also sneaking behind my back to see the OC. I am sorry that your OC is a boy, it makes it even more difficult if you have the feeling that the OW was able to give your H something that you could not. That is the way I felt for a long time during my fertility problems when the OC was born.<P>My H was also giving money for "extras" without telling me. The OW was an expert at always needing something more for the child. <BR>Actually, it was here in this group that I learned the reason why I felt so upset when I found out about my H sneaking to see the OC.<P>As you said, it is not the money. It is the fact that my H and the OW are sharing "a secret" that they are keeping from me. That is almost as bad as the adultery. The OW in my life is also still madly in love with my H. I found birthday cards from her that were completely inappropriate - talking about "the first time I saw you I knew you were the one for me for the rest of my life!" I hit the roof! My H claims that she gave them to her but they didn't mean anything. I told him DO NOT accept anything from her. He is only encouraging her behaviour if he accepts.<P>I don't want him near the OW. I don't want them playing house with the OC. I believe that the OC must have sufficient financial support but anything more is not supporting the OC -- it is support for the OW -- and I am adamant that her needs should not be supported in any way. <P>When I confronted by H and told him all of this, he said that he would stop seeing the OC completely. But, he has waffled on this issue in the past (that's what the sneaking behind my back was about) and that makes me understand that he does want to have some sort of relationship with the OC. <P>My H had a horrible family life and it bothers him that he has a child "out there" who may grow up with as lousy a home life as he did.<P>That's why I have been searching my conscience to see if it would be possible for me to let the OC into my life. <P>But as far as contact with the OW -- that is absolutely out of question. Some of the women in this group coordinate the visits with the OW and either pick up the OC or are present during the pickup of the OC. That might work for you if you decide to see your OC. Even if you can't bear to spend time with him yet, perhaps you could at least be there for the pick up and then let your H take him out for the day alone. Then you could just return with him for the drop off.<P>My H likes to say that he feels I am treating him like a criminal. He says that he understands his mistake, he is atoning for it, and he hates being "watched" all the time. My answer for that is that he has put us through the worst situation that any marriage can face. Things will never be completely the same. But, if things are to every even out to a point where I can fully trust again (don't know when that will be ...) then it will take some extraordinary measures to prove his sincerity. <P>Also, explain to him that it is adding insult to injury for you to allow him to continue dealing with the OW like you don't exist. You know the whole story, you are both trying to work out your marriage and you have to face whatever comes together -- as a team.<P>God bless you and good luck,<BR>Heavenly

HEAVENLYBODY26<BR>THANK YOU FOR BEING THERE FOR ME TODAY<BR>THIS PASS WEEK HAS BEEN A WEEK FROM HELL<P>THE OW DECIDED TO STIR THINGS UP WHEN SHE HADN'T RECIEVED ANY MONEY FROM H<BR>SHE KNEW HE WAS SNEAKING OVER TO GIVE HER MONEY<P>THE OW HAS BEEN LIKE A FATAL ATTRACTION IN OUR LIFE<BR>SHE DECIDED TO TELL MY OLDEST THAT SHE HAD A BROTHER<BR>IT WAS LIKE SHE WAS GOING TO GET HIM AT ALL COST.............<P>IF I DECIDED TO BE THE BETTER PERSON HERE AND PICK UP THE OC FOR VISITS<BR>BRING MONEY TO HER FOR SUPPORT<BR>WOULD THIS MAKE THINGS BETTER????????<BR>I AM REALLY DEPRESS TODAY<BR>I THOUGHT I HAD GOTTEN PASS THIS I THOUGHT<BR>OUR MARRIAGE HAD GOTTEN BACK ON TRACK?????<BR>HOW DO YOU STOP THE SNEAKING AROUND?????<P>TO KNOW THIS SITUATION IS BEING PLAYED OUT ALL THE TIME MY BROTHER AND HIS WIFE ARE GOING THRU THE VERY SAME THING<P>WHY DO WE STAY WITH THESE MEN????

Hurting,<P>I have asked myself about three million times why I stay with this man and the answer is always the same -- I love him. Women take our marriage vows very seriously. We find the "right one" for us and we truly commit heart and soul. I don't think that men commit in the same way. And, as sad as my H is for what has happened I don't think he has felt it the same way I have.<P>After all, they are the ones doing the cheating. We are the ones who had no control in the situation.<P>As for your question, if you get involved with picking up the OC and dropping off the money will it make things better? One thing I have learned loud and clear is that the OW believes that the OC gives her power over the situation. Some of them feed off of the fact that they are calling the shots and the wife is jumping to the tune.<P>I think the way that some of the women handle it by getting involved makes it clear to the OW that she is not going to come between you and your H. It puts you and your H in the driving seat. The OW wants to deal with your H so that she can play games. She won't be able to play any games with you - it will be strictly business -- and that is no fun for her.<P>When I get really down and I don't think I can take it anymore, it makes me feel better to know that the OW is still not getting the one thing that she wants - my H! Living happily ever after with your family will be the best revenge you can have. And, even if she has a boy, she will never have the kind of quality of life and closeness that your girls have with their father. <P>Nothing replaces having your father be there for you day and night -- waking up with him and having him tuck you in at night.<P>So, focus on the good things. As time goes on you will find there are so many. And, in time you will find that the qualities that you loved about your H are still there. He made a really bad mistake but if he is willing to work at it, then you can be happy again.<P>I'm glad I could help your bad mood today. We all have to lean on each other.<P>- Heavenly

Dear Heavenly,<P>The following are the main issues concerning OC:<P>FEAR:<BR>1. fear that H may sneak behind your back<BR>2. fear that OC may be out of closet and upset your children lives and opinions of H<BR>3. fear that OW may creep back into your lives<P>GUILT:<BR>1. H's guilt <BR>2. Your own guilt - child innocent but OW not<BR>3. Christian guilt<P>PAST and FUTURE:<BR>1. Past cannot be changed - accepted<BR>2. Future can be changed - what to do to manage the change<P>Heavenly,<BR>Every member's situation here is quite different in that some H do not want the OC at all, and in your case, your H is feeling guilty about the upbringing this OC will not have.<P>I would suggest that you and your H sit down separately and set aside some time to pary and fast about this OC. Then after some time, you can pen down your thoughts and feelings on the matter in all honesty.<P>Then when you have read each other's letters, you can make an appointment with at least 2 different counsellors, including your pastor. Meet them on separate sessions and talk through your fears, hurts, guilt and take the time to decide on what should be done.<P>Search your heart, do you really have a place in it for the OC? Is it mainly driven by fear of H's future actions should the guilt get too much for him? If that is the case, then the best alternative is to for him to meet OC (without OW) with you during OC's birhday or some occasion. This will ensure that both you and H are present and that OC will also get to benefit from the fact that a two-parent family is a good thing to aspire to (an alternative to its upbringing with an OW). Are you up to it? Maybe you can meet either once a year to a maximum of 4 times a year?<P>I hope you will get some answers as you wait upon the Lord. Take your time to think this over before you decide and do that with your H.<P>God speed to you<BR>weep<P>

Heavenly,<BR>I'm sorry you're so torn. Weep gave some great advice. Searching your heart and Policy of Joint Agreement are important. I've written thoughts on this to you before, so I don't want to be too repetitive... certainly the fact your H already knows the OC (and vice versa) changes things, as you say.<P>It is possible to make strong boundaries that allow visitation w/OC without contact between your H and XOW, if this is what will set your hearts free from the chains of this agonizing situation. Your children will no doubt forgive their father once they get over the shock of his human failability, no matter how they learn of it. Ultimately I think we all seek: peace. Go with what gives you peace.<P>Amen.

Dear Heavenly,<P>I have also written to you on another thread about when and how to reveal that there is an OC to the children. Have you asked your counsellors / pastor yet?

Thanks so much for your replies. I am also sorry that I sound repetitive but on this issue I keep waffling. Some days I think I can handle including the OC, other days I think it would make me lose my mind. (What little I have left after this ordeal!)<P>I am generally a decisive person and it is driving me crazy that I cannot seem to make up my mind on this issue and stick with it. I guess I don't yet have the "peace" that Jenny was talking about.<P>Weep, you offered some wonderful advice. Fear is at the heart of the matter. The OW stole my H once and I am scared to death that she will do it again. I believe that my H's feelings for the OC are an extension of his feeling for the OW. I can't get it out of my mind that he told that woman he loved her. Its funny how the sex is secondary to the shared feelings and confidences that are supposed to be reserved for the marriage.<P>I could walk away from the OC in a heartbeat (as awful as that sounds) but as long as my H wants to watch over her I feel that I have to be there to watch him and the OW.<P>I am also, as you pointed out, afraid that my children will be affected. I spoke to my counsellor about this matter and he felt that the earlier the children are told the better it would be -- that they would grow with the knowledge of the OC rather than being shocked later when they had a full comprehension of what the OC represents.<P>But, my H has been adamant that he does not want them to know about it. He feels that we have created a safe haven for our kids and he doesn't want anything to interfere with that.<P>I have been praying for the right answer. And I think it is a wonderful idea for my H and idea to refect and to write down our true feelings on this matter. <P>Jenny, your idea about setting boundaries for the contact with the OC and excluding completely the OW may be the answer. You offered me such good advice on this matter in the past. You have been my role model in this group because of the selfless way you have handled your situation.<P>I could learn a lot from you and I thank you for your guidance.<P>When I have examined my feelings, I will let you know what I find...<BR>Heavenly

Heavenly:<P>I've been avoiding your thread like the plague. This is something I have no advice for because I never want to feel torn like you do. I suppose your husband should be somewhat commended for worrying about the OC's lot in life. However, you should be given a gold medal for even being gracious enough to consider allowing this child into your lives...because, as you said, of what it represents.<P>I can't do it. I doubt I ever will. But, you apparently have a big enough heart to entertain the idea.<P>These things happened to you when you were trying to have a child yourself. Although I knew from day one I could never have a child with my husband, I secretly grieved the loss of something so incredibly spectacular to me...having a child with my husband. <P>I was always so in love with him, it was something I secretly longed for, desired and even fantasized about. Out of the blue my life changed two years ago on October 24th.<BR>A stranger got pregnant and gave birth to my husband's child. It should have been mine, it should have been me. I know deep in my heart that this is something I could never do. Luckily for me, MY priest told me our only responsibility was to our marriage and the only thing we owe the OC is financial support. I'm hanging onto that one for dear life and if I have to repeat it to myself like a cadence to get through the next twenty years, I will.<P>God bless you in your decision making process. I truly greatly admire thse of you who can open your hearts and homes to the innocent child brought into this world via deceit, destruction, heartbreak and selfishness. The tragedy is that it is not the poor child's fault. That sin lies with the spouse and the OW. And it is THEIR doing, not ours, yet we are often the ones to agonize and feel guilty about it, or feel as though we must sacrifice our comfort in order to restore our marriages by placating our spouse and their misplaced guilt. <P>What a mess.<P>Heavenly, you're a thoughtful and wise and kind woman who wants to fend off the possibility of having your spouse sneak around to check up on the OC...once again it is you giving in. There is a special place in heaven for people like you.<P>Catnip =^^=

wow catnip, you always seem to say what i am feeling. i agree with you all the way. i used to be wishy washy about my postition and the decision we had made, but i am not anymore. i am at peace with our decision and whatever problems/consequences it will bring will have to dealt with when we get to them. <BR>i too commend those who can do it, but i know i couldn't. <P>HEAVENLY, good luck on whatever you decide. emotional stress causes so much havoc on our body and soul. i pray you soon find your answer and can be at peace with what ever it is you decide. we are behind you either way.<P>happy_girl

As usual, Catnip says it best! I, too, have prayed for peace about my decision not to have OC in our lives. My H never had any question about his decision not to be involved. I'm thankful for that. He always knew that it would be too painful for me and our marriage couldn't survive that. We both know in our hearts that it's best this way. I am truely at peace with my decision. I don't even feel like it was a decision...it was NEVER a choice I had to make. I agree so much with Catnip....although H and OW are the ones who betrayed us, we seem to be the ones consumed with guilt, indecisions and battling an array of emotions just to get through all this mess. It isn't fair at all and I get angry about that. Heavenly, whatever you decide has to be the right decision for YOU. Do what you can live with in your heart and whatever will bring you peace. I'll keep you in my prayers.<P>Comfort

My dear friends,<P>This is a rather emotional reply for me so please bear with me if I ramble a bit.<P>I am still searching my feelings and I greatly appreciate the prayers that are being offered for me. I believe with all my heart in the power of prayer which is why I feel so strongly that God is trying to tell me something. I am just trying to find out what exactly it is.<P>Yes, Catnip and Comfort, it is ALWAYS us - the innocent victims in this mess - who are making the concessions, making the accommodations and worrying all the time. And it makes me crazy sometimes that my H seems to suffer a lot less. I say "seems" because since men don't always say what is on their minds, I can't be sure of the depth of his suffering. But I know mine is much more public and closer to the surface.<P>I don't deserve any medals -- I am just like everyone else hear finding my way and trying to make a dollar out of fifteen cents. But I have always wanted to get out of criminal law and get into child advocacy. I feel strongly about life and I know that whatever happens to this OC now will be shaping the entire rest of her life.<P>My H is confused because of his lousy homelife. His father was alcoholic and he was abused -- the scars are deep. I wonder if the OC will grow up lacking values and moral character because she had a one parent home. These are the questions that torture me. My H and I - because we are a team - are both responsible for the future of this child.<P>Catnip having gone through infertility for five long years, severe depression and counselling about it, believe me I know how hard this OC has hit. But my H told me something that I hope will help you to put things into perspective.<P>When I was feeling low one day, he told me that although he had made a stupid mistake, he had chosen to share his life with me. He stayed with me when it seemed that we would never have children of our own. He could have left then but it was love that kept him by my side. <P>My H also has two chidren from a previous marriage. I used to believe that since he had the experience already, having more children didn't matter to him. I was very wrong. He had already learned what I am just learning now. Nothing in life is perfect. With his first wife, he had the wedding, the house, the babies and they ended up divorced. The house became a prison and babies became stones around his neck. All because the love was no longer there.<P>The love is what is important because without that there is no marriage and without marriage what do children really mean? Without the love and the commitment, they are just biological, they represent sex nothing more. So, my H was ecstatic that he had found real love, with or without children. <P>So, the OC means that nature has allowed her to do something that you can't do. She may also be double-jointed and able to swing her left leg behind her neck! You can't do that either (can you?) But she has never and will never share the rich history, the intimate understanding and the powerful bond that you have built over time with your H.<P>Our marriages are not over -- they just hit a bump in the road (okay, a boulder...) but it is that love we share with our spouses that allows us to turn the car in a different direction and keep going together.<P>No matter how bad you may feel on any given day, believe one thing -- the OW feels worse because she DID NOT get the one thing she wanted - your H. So, with or without uterus, who is the better woman in this picture?! (smile - sorry I don't know how to insert those little smiley faces!)<P>I know that you have been through a lot lately Catnip. But your strength has been a beacon in the night for all of us here. <P>Comfort, Catnip and everyone else, it is time that I sit down like Weep said and take some time to establish once and for all what will bring me peace of mind. Christmas is coming so there is no better time to decide whether or not to open my arms and my heart to the child.<P>Thanks to everyone and God bless us all.<BR>Love, Heavenly

Heavenly,<P>I believe you have already decided.<P>I also believe that you will also experience the most blessed and meaningful Christmas of your life.<P>Even though I cannot do what you will probably do, I am in awe of your big heart. You inspire me.<P>Catnip =^^=

heavenlybody26,<BR>Your last post truly touched my heart and I thank you for writing it. I agree that you have made your decision and that you are truly a wonderful person. Just wanted to say thank you for helping me to put some perspective in this whole mess.

Blessings to you, Heavenly. You're an angel. Even though I know I couldn't do what you're more than likely going to do, I know that the OC is going to be very lucky to have you in his/her life. God Speed.<P>Comfort

Hold on everyone ... Wait until you here my H's reply when I told him what I have been thinking about ...<P>Out of the blue my H told me that he has truly been torn between his home and his need to make sure that the OC is okay. He really unloaded a lot of his feelings and they were very surprising.<P>For one thing, he says that the OW hates him - for not choosing to stay with her and the OW. She has a real nasty streak and he says that even if he thought about taking up with her again, she would make his life hell for trying to work on his marriage. <P>But, being a single mother, the OW and OC don't live in the best possible neighborhood. She was already robbed at gunpoint and he has been terrified that something horrible will happen to both of them. He knows what it is like to grow up in a dysfunctional family situation and he feels terrible that he has allowed a child to be produced who will grow up in yet another dysfunctional situation.<P>Okay, then I asked why the sneaking around to see the OC. He says that's simple. The mere mention of the OW or OC's name he feels is like driving a knife through my heart. And, he does not want me to suffer another day or cry another tear over his stupidity. <P>Now, here is the surprise answer. H says that he feels like the love he has for me is tainted and that everytime I look at him I am thinking of the OW and OC. He feels that he has lost forever something very precious that we had. And, he has been trying all this time to get it back by separating what is merely a "bad situation" from his real life and family.<P>He IS suffering ... just quietly and alone. <P>He believes that having the OC around will just keep the bad memories fresh and stop us from getting back to that "special and precious" place that our marriage was at before all this happened.<P>But, he again reassured me that I am the only woman he wants and that I have nothing to fear anymore about him and the OW. <P>I told him that I would think about all that he said, but that I was also thinking about what would be best for the child. I was honest with him. I told him that I am not 100% sure that I could fully open my heart to this child. (I truly have doubts still.) So, we are both going to search our hearts and by the end of the weekend, we will have our final feelings on how each of us feels the situation should be dealt with.<P>He also mentioned that having the OC see what a loving family he has with our kids might have a negative effect on her rather than a positive one. And, it might drive the OW crazy to hear stories from the OC about our home, our family and the closeness we share (mmmm... any unexpected benefit!)<P>- Heavenly

Heavenly,<P>I'm pretty new here and don't get online as much as I would like sometimes, but wanted to share my story with you. <P>My H had an affair and an OC is due in 2001. When I found out, I was devastated, but I knew right away that the OC would be a part of our lives. We have spoken to our own children, who now know about the OC. They were hurt, angry, upset, you name it, but they are glad they know the truth, no secrets. We have talked to our children, telling them this is NOT acceptable behavior in a marriage. They have seen the hurt and pain I have gone through. Our children are all older (teens) and I believe our talking to them was the best thing to do.<P>My H and I knew right away that the OC would be a part of our lives. We wouldn't want it any other way. As a matter of fact, we want to be there when the OC is born. People say I'm crazy, but I know in my heart this is the right thing to do, have the OC in our lives, be a part of our family.<P>Now, when it comes to the OW, that's where I draw the line. I know I don't want her in any part of our lives, but in some ways she'll have to be because of the OC. I have told my H that there are rules that are in place when it comes to the OW. If there is contact with OW, I WILL be present or on the other phone line. She needs to know WE are together and nothing she says or does will change that. I will know everything. <P>My H told me that the baby is in the wrong place. I asked what he meant and he said the baby should be inside of me. Believe me, I would love nothing more than the baby be ours. I told my H that I will love the OC as I love our own, as if it were mine. I couldn't imagine not loving this child. <P>If we have reason to believe OW isn't treating OC right or there is any form of abuse, we will go to court and fight for custody of the OC!! No ifs ands or buts about it. <P>I think of the OC as something beautiful coming out of an ugly situation. My H sees the hurt and pain he has caused not only me, but our children. I know he is truly remorseful for what has happened. The past can't be changed, but we can make the future very beautiful.<P>To you and everyone else here, my prayers are with you all. This isn't an easy decision to be made, to open your hearts to the OC or not, but please know that you are all to be commended for your strength.<P>God bless you all,<BR>LoveHurts

lovehurts,<P>wow. you are a pretty amazing woman. i commend you for your postition on the OC. i guess we all feel different about it and must deal with it in the way best for us and our marriages. i hope that everything turns out good with your situation. drawing the line with the OW is a must. i am sure you have seen what the others here who have OC in their life have done and probably gotten some ideas. her seeing you 2 as a united front and working hard on your marriage will be good. make it very clear before OC is born as to what the guidelines will be. are you doing this thru the courts or on your own. be careful, and be sure to consult an attorney to get all the info you might need.<P>take care and i think you must be a truly wonderful person. it takes a BIG heart and lots of strength to make the decision to be involved in OC's life. <P>happy_girl

Dear Heavenly,<P>I am glad that your H has been thinking this through quite thoroughly. I hope that you can be perfectly honest to him in your feelings about OC.<P>I can honestly say that I have zilch space for an OC through an illicit affair. My case is especially reinforced because OW is a very vicious banshee who knived my WS in public and landed in jail. OW also caused my father to have chest pains and he was hospitalised and died of complications soon after. Banshee also revealed the adultery to my father. With the sort of evil (not just streaks) that banshee is, you can bet what OC may be made of.<P>I know your intentions are based mostly on what you trust are your husband's feelings about the situation. Hence, I urged you both to write down your truest feelings after you prayed and fasted as well as setting aside time to digest the information, discussing with and seeking counsel. This way, your H would have talked through all his unresolved fears and contradictory thoughts on OC, and would become more accepting of his guilt and trespass. <P>As a number have concurred, many pastors would advice that the only communication would really be CS. <P>I will also pray for you as you wait on God's word.<P>God Loves You<BR>weep