Wow, that stuff is very intersting... That actually sounds like the kind of stuff I have been looking for.

Over the past few days, I have been slowly but surely running out of reasons to stay. I am dreaming that I will go home and my bags will be packed. I really don't care what it costs, I just want out. ---the point in saying that is that I am to the point that I am just trying to find out if there is anything - any glimmer of hope hiding around a corner that I may have overlooked. Yet, at the same time, I am hoping that I am not looking for that hope just because it is more convenient to stay married. (no financial hassles, etc.)

If nothing else, I have an appt. (alone) with a counselor tomorrow... I don't know where it will go, but maybe it will help.

Update: Saw counselor, and for the first time laid out how I truly felt and what I truly felt - not what I know the world wants me to say I feel. That REALLY felt good. Of course the things that I wrote while honest, would not feel good to the other half. That has really been the dilemma for the past 8 years I have finally figured out. ANYWAY, the counselor suggested that I present the information in that note to my wife. It was the worst thing in the world to wait for her to get home the next day and then confront her with "I don't love you, I don't want to be here anymore - I have tried for so long and I can't deny myself anymore..." 2 days later, I took some clothes and stayed at a friends. By Wednesday, I had an apt. and as of Friday (Mar 14) I am on my own. I have never felt so good. That line of action out of the way, there was a meeting Tuesday that we both attended where I did an ok job of representing myself. I maintained my stance, apologized that I knew this would hurt, and managed not to cry. At the time, I was of the opinion when it was suggested that we try a physical separation first for 3 months, that it would be an ok thing for her to (hopefully) get to the same place I was/am. Unfortunately, I think this is no better than a stall technique for time. Her true self is beginning to reappear as she struggles to gain control of the situation again - as she has already done the entire marriage. There is no way on this Earth I will make it 3 months. I plan to tell that in my counselor meeting this week.

This is all so crazy - coming here to this site has been quite interesting and informative, but I still am uncertain why so many people seem to be for preserving a relationship. All sorts of advice and reference available on saving a marriage, or working on one, etc. etc., but what about the occasions (which unfortuately DO happen) where people just shouldn't be together? That is a topic that seems to be seriously under represented. I can understand a little bit that a marriage shouldn't just be thrown away on a whim, but I think the true answer that would have helped me is to understand what a marriage is all about (BEFORE you get to be 40!). Almost the same concept as crime and kids. Do we build more jails or actually bring morality back into the world/schools?

Well, there it is - the update on this situation. IMHO, this marriage is quite over. It never should have started. I will continue couseling to determine what I am looking for, and hopefully find that person that compliments me and who I am - that I can love and be best friends with first and foremost. The other crap that comes when two people are together all the time will be much easier to handle with that base of love and friendship. I also (half joking, half not) plan on dating that person for 3-5 years before I ever get near an "aisle" again. AND, I am prepared that such a person may elude me. Even after all that, I could take the easy way and just say to live with what I have - and could go back to I am sure. But, with what I have learned, it really isn't an option.

I think that pretty much wraps it up. I don't know if it will be of any help, but I will continue to post updates as I have more experiences on this journey. If for no other reason than what I said above about there not being much material out there on "When Is It Over?"

...and I thought I'd come back and throw in a progress report. What the hey! I feel like the lone gunman for those out there that are in my shoes. I think most people probably know more about themselves than I did though and am coming to understand that THAT might be why this marriage thing has been so elusive for me.
----- SO, general consensus is that I am a happier person on the outside and on the inside as a result of leaving. I have been through some pretty deep dips, but even at those times, I couldn't justify returning to the relationship. Even people that don't see me that often say I look very happy (weird, huh?). ///// CONVERSELY, and this parallels a story I heard at church a while back, I can see why some people get to this stage and realize they should stick it out. After all, you have had a partner in life who you know and have worked with (maybe, maybe not!?) and that is a sense of stability even if it is not too positive. Leaving makes you think about the years you have invested - that you can't get back - that you are older and the market for single people isn't that great; if I even assume you even are thinking about other people at this point. ...and on and on and on. There are a vast array of reasons to try and make a relationship work. Ripping up lives, losing synergy of a team, etc. also play heavily into the occasion. I am thinking this is why there are so many people and resources out there who push for saving the relationship. ///// After having said all that, I can still come back to the original title of "When is it over?" Life is full of different people, different situations, different chemistry - good grief, the possibilities are HUGE. Each situation is unique -- and try as you might to categorize aand lump things together, you best be careful. Lumping things together for the sake of mass production and theorizing is all well and good, but down in the one-on-one, it can all go out the window. ***** Back to the story here, I feel great. The fact it took me 8 years to get here when it should have been 8 months sucks. I can't change that - but I can stop it from going on another 8 years. In all likelihood, I will get married once more in my life. Feel like Johnny Carson on #4, but oh well. At least I know what I'm doing now. Yes, I think I do. I think I was emotionally immature. It took my promotion to manager to start growing a spine and realize who I was and could be. Most importantly, not to bow to everyone else's wishes and desires (including those closest to me) at my expense. (Thus he alias "Self-Cheater") You might be able to last awhile - maybe even a lifetime, but if not a lifetime, it will end. ...and what a way to live life? I can't buy that one. You have to be very careful before you say "I do" - and I wish I knew that before I did. Again, time marches on and I can't change that now. Back to the spine, I have been to counseling for awhile now, read countless books on relationships and what it takes to make a marriage last, and even read management books that could be applied to MANAGING YOUR LIFE! Oh, and I started school too. [[[[[[[ BOY does it feel good to be in charge of your own life! ]]]]]]] UNBELIEVABLE! I know I am rambling a bit, but even my counselor said that was good because it leads to true expression of self before you manipulate it beyond recognition! I don't know if I will post here anymore, but I may. If I do, I think it will be (maybe) on the topic of knowing yourself enough to know what to look for in a mate. My next self-project anyway. TAKE CARE!