Dear O,<P>Sorry to address someone else's comment in your thread, but Del asked some specific questions that I would like to reply to.<P>Unfortunately this thread has opened up a number of peripheral issues and some of them deal with personal beliefs -- whether you believe in abortion, adoption, etc. These are very personal and I believe best left to the choice of each individual.<P>When I referred to crime, I referred to the fact that conceiving a child outside of the boundaries of marriage is considered morally wrong. Having done this myself, I want you to know that I hold myself to the same standard -- it was morally wrong. So, the "crime" refers to that.<P>I believe my comment about the children of the marriage versus the OC were not clear. I am saying exactly what you said -- the OC should not be entitled to more than the children of the legal marriage. But, unfortunately, that is the way the courts generally rule in these matters. So, what happens to the children of the marriage who are often forced to have a standard of life lower than that of the OC? We are on the same wavelength on this one.<P>You objected to my use of the word "extortion" but what else would you call it? One of the several ways in which extortion is defined is the act of obtaining something through threats. I wholeheartedly support the concept of CS. But, I feel that it is best to work out these financial arrangements between the MM and the OW -- to the extent possible -- before involving the courts. <P>Of course, if the arrangement does not work and the MM does not pay, then the courts are always a fall-back position. But, it is least damaging to all concerned if the adult parties can actually behave like adults and establish a financial plan that all can live with.<P>And, Ohbratti1, keep your armor up when you read these posts! We don't mean to be so blunt sometimes, but there is so much pain in this topic that it sometimes oozes out as anger. But, we are all here for the same reasons -- to gain support for our emotional well-being and I hope that our rantings and ravings are also helping you to clearly see where you are headed.<P>- Heavenly

ohbratti1<P>I am sorry for the unfortunate position that you find yourself in. I'm fortunate that my WS didn't impregnante the OW. Had he though, I can most definitely say that would have been it. I would have filed for divorce and CS immediately to guarantee my children's rights first. <P>I don't think you should notify the W when you go into labor. As has been said, it's none of her business. Not to mention, if you question her stability, what's to keep her from coming to the hospital, I'm sure she's about the last person you will want to see.<P>If you do not need CS to raise your child, why are you going to even put his name on the birth certificate? It's not required. I don't think it's a right that he deserves, and if he's never named and the issue is never addressed in court, then he has no right to see your child period without first suing you to prove he is the father. I doubt this is something he would do.<P>If you do not pursue CS, then you have no obligation to satisfy his wife's need to know if he truly is the father. You know he is the father, he knows it, and I'm sure she knows it too. Once you open that door to legally naming this man as the father, you are stuck with him, and even worse so is your child. I'm speaking now as a woman who has been divorced and is forced to turn my precious children over to a man who is so delinquent in Cs that it isn't even funny, who doesn't use common sense in caring for them, and subjects my children to his drug using friends that I wouldn't allow near my dog. I've contacted protective services, gone through the courts and everything else, but until something actually happens to my children while in his care they won't do a thing. Once you open this door, you won't be able to close it.<P>Yes, your child most definitely deserves a father/father-figure. But from what you have said, he deserves a much better one than DNA has provided. My suggestion is move, change your number, transfer to a different office in your company if possible, and if they really want to be a part of your child's life, make them work at it. Cut your losses now and get down on your knees and give thanks that you aren't still with this man because he would have done the same thing to you.

Your child is not born yet, right? If child isnt born then there is no birth certificate, thus MM has not been named as father...correct? Well, why bother? If custody and child support are your big concerns then do not name him...problem solved.<P>If you still want to give them a paternity test for wifes "peace of mind" (haha)or to prove yourself (as in ow in my case) then as was suggested go through a private company. We did that and we paid for it bc I was one of those wives that insisted to know the total truth (partly that was bc at the time I was still not being told the whole truth, otherwise I might not have wasted my $). I shoppped around and the co. I found was only 475$ for dna. It did not automatically make my H the legal father though since his name was not on the certificate. He was not the legal father until it went though the courts. This was in AZ. I do not know if those are the same rules there or not...Heavenly?_

<BR>ohbratti,<P>Something in your story doesn't seem to add up. You are insisting on persuing a paternity decision through the courts because you are concerned that the psycho wife might try something. Further, you claim that CS has nothing to do with this decision.<P>Now take a look at PamO's case. She is right - if anything, by pushing this through the courts, you are practically guaranteeing that the MM and gthe psycho wife WILL get time with your child (and they should, too, if you insist on ramming a paternity/CS decision down their throats). If protecting your child from the psycho wife is your utmost concern, you are behaving diametrically opposite to what you should be doing.<P>I still say this smells of using the extortionary, guideline CS as a means of revenge. You'll get your paternity decision, you'll get your CS, but are you sure you are ready to risk the downside of your decision to persue this through the courts? And I'm NOT kidding about the MM being able to strip that kid from the arms of a half-sibling, against the wishes of your current husband, in the event of your untimely demise. It would be his right to do so (and frankly I support such a right).<P>Bystander

Bystander,<P>You choose strong words, but that's alright….it's a very hot topic. No, I'm not insisting on a paternity decision…his wife has requested it, to the point of begging, and I have agreed. We are doing it privately and are sharing the cost. However, what we believe and feel to be correct is not always supported by the law. I have my suspicions about her instability and/or motivation, but nothing solid if I had to prove it. Therefore, I want to solidify/legalize custody of my child. What if I'm wrong about them? What if he/she can be a positive influence in my child's life? There has been a lot of indecisiveness and hurtful words said by his wife. Considering the circumstances, how do I know it's just the hurt talking or if this is who she really is? In any case, I am striding to do what is right and fair….within tolerable limits. I will not exclude him or them from my child's life because of my fears and suspicions. She has expressed the possibility of him, and maybe both of them, being in my child's life and presenting him to his "other" family (grandma, grandpa, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.). I do not want to deny my child this opportunity out of my own fear. Hence, my pursuit of custody, with "reasonable" visitation. This keeps the door open for him/them to be a part of my son's life, should they choose to do so, while giving me legal "protection" (custody). Yes, I'm hurting, but in all fairness, we ALL are hurting. Outside this situation, he was a good man, and she could very well be a good woman. I'm trying to keep positive while remaining cautious. Until it actually happens, you never know what the future holds.<P>As to the CS issue, I have already stated that it is at his insistence, with her support. If you look at the flip side of the CS controversy, unless a child support amount is approved by the state (judge acts on behalf of the states interest by issuing a court order) any private agreement we make is not worth the paper it's written on...that's not an opinion, it's the law. Translation: they could pay child support, per our private agreement, for the next 2 years and then end up having to "pay again" if I took them to court later on down the line. I'm not saying that this is what I would do, but I'm sure she is looking at protecting herself from just this possibility. I can promise, give my word, swear a blood oath, whatever you want to call it, but why should she believe me? She hasn't known me long enough or well enough to know what type of woman I really am…and vice versa. What guarantee does she have that I will honor my word? So, the best we can do, to protect all parties, is agree on a low child support amount, present it to the judge for approval and have it legalized.<P>I don't want to categorize his wife as a "psycho". She may very well be, based on the behavior I've been subjected to, or maybe just very immature. But, then again, being fair, how crazy is her behavior considering what she's going through? I'm trying to look at all the angles here. What is the saying...appearances can be deceiving. I want to be aware and not blind myself with my own fears and suspicions.<P>With each response I give, I'm finding more strength...and peace. Putting in writing what my thoughts and views are, is helping to reaffirm my stance on some issues while re-assessing others. What I'm doing, or how I'm doing it, may not be the right path for everyone, but it feels right...at least for me. Everyone's story is unique, and there is no way of knowing all the details. My way, or your way, is not the only "right" way.

<BR>Your argument that you need to "solidify" custody is nonsensical. After the child is born, the only way for the MM to gain any custody rights at all would be to sue for paternity himself! As you're obviously not on AFDC, the state doesn't care if you refuse to name the father at birth, and as the birth mother you automatically have sole custody. So you are essentially seeking a paternity judgment that will *increase* the potential harm to the child in your own eyes, all while denying that CS is relevent.<P>It still doesn't add up.<P>Bystander<BR>

I am beginning to agree with Bystander.<P>O, why bring all this up to us if you already have your mind made up on what you are going to do? You are insisting that you already know the legalitys and this is the "right way" for you...what is the point in bringing it here?<P>It seems no matter what point has been made (and there have been some very good, solid perspectives here) you debate it.<P>I just dont understand.

Bystander,<P>I guess we're counting by different numbers. I have committed myself to doing things straight and on the up and up. The paternity test will be conducted and, pending their receipt of the test results, the H's name will go on the birth certificate. We (H, W and I) have agreed that this would be the right thing to do. It would be nice and less problematic if law enforcement would enforce the presumption of sole custody and give me my baby back, IF, for whatever reason, he decided to keep/take my baby. I'm not saying this will or won't happen. I'm just recognizing that it is a possibility. I have physical custody (possession), but if baby goes with dad for a visit (in state, out of state, or down the street) dad then has physical custody (because it was never formalized in court) and is not legally obliged to return my child to me. I could rant and rave, call the police, the FBI, etc. and no one can or would take any measures to return my baby to me. I would have to file a custody suit, wait for my court date, and then go to court for the judge to award me custody of my son. So while I wait for this to happen, how much time passes without my child?<P>While family law may not be my area of expertise, I have studied my state's Family Code, case law, consulted a Family Law attorney, and spoken with people who work in my county's family court. So, coming from a large family that contains many self-proclaimed and some true "experts" in this area, I'm confident in the legal advice/information I've been given….even if it wasn't always solicited (grrr). I come from a very close-nit family of "do-gooders" (I mean that affectionately) that has only the best interest of me and my child in mind. I have to balance that with trying to be fair to the other people (H and W) Involved in this mess. <P>Bystander, you question my motives and are very skeptical of me…which is justified, given the format of this board. You have no way of knowing me or "trusting" in what I state here. I posted to this board in a moment when I was down and feeling bad about my current circumstances. That post has gone way beyond what I could have imagined. I would like to share this with you: my mom has been a great source of encouragement and enlightenment. She is a gentle person, with great who has nudged me towards doing what I know is right. She helps me to keep my feelings in perspective and to keep my heart open, even when I'm hurting the most. Her best advice to me….be compassionate, but be smart. I know that what I'm "doing" is like a double-edged sword, and many may shake their heads and wonder "why the hell did she do that?" Then again, some may snicker and say "I KNOW why she's doing that." But you know what? Those who presume to know really don't know at all. I am not a cynical person, and I refuse to let cynicism eat away at me. I'm not a perfect person, but I try very hard to live my life according to the "code" of ethics my parents taught me, my brothers and my sisters. That code encompasses honesty, loyalty, purity of intent, accountability for myself, being just and honorable, and (my dad's favorite) be proud, but don't be too proud to make peace. I may not have always made the right choices, but if I look at the virtues I mentioned, I believe I can hold my head up with dignity because I have the knowledge that I am at least trying.<P>I'm not asking for you to agree with me, just to be tolerant of my quest to be upright.<BR>

Broken Wings,<P>Guilty! You're so right. I have been debating or, more likely, arguing. That's my "lawyer side" coming out (actually, it never really goes away). Here I go spewing off about being tolerant and "open"...I should practice what I preach, huh? This thread has really gotten carried away. A lot of that is my own fault. I've often been accused of talking too much and being too detailed. I get carried away with wanting to be thorough and making my point. I guess, in order to learn, I'm going to have to be silent long enough to listen and absorb what I'm being told.

<BR>As a mother with no paternity established, you automatically have sole custody. If your child visited the MM, a legally unrecognized father, and the MM tried to keep the child, you would simply call the police and report him for kidnapping. His status would be no different than a babysitter making off with the child, and kidnapping is felony. The police would get involved very quickly.<P>Look, O, I can respect a desire to have a legal father recognized for the sake of the child. I can respect a desire to secure a reasonable CS amount (and I regard the guidelines as generally unreasonable, at least at incomes above about $40K). But the claim that you're worried about a psycho wife at the very time you're practically guaranteeing her access to the child? <P>I apologize for sounding testy, but it just doesn't add up IMO.<P>Bystander

If legal issues are your only concern, why do you have to go through the court system? <BR>When both contacted a lawyer in her state, a child support agreement was drawn up stating payment, custody,visitation and everything except what happens incase of her early demise. then they both signed it, had their signatures notarized and registered it with the court in her county. It was not dificult.

In my state, it wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on...notarized or not. We have to go before a mediator, present a parenting plan, have him file his report with the court for the judge to review, and finally get the judges "seal of approval". Until then, we can basically do whatever we want, but it's not legally binding, thereby offering no protection...for anyone. Believe me, I've gone to bed cross-eyed many nights after hearing/reading what the laws are regarding this situation.

<B>what if</B> women would truly put an effort at protecting themselves from unplanned pregnancies. i feel it is fully the woman's responsibility since she is the <B>only one</B> who can get pregnant. i have been sexually active for at least 6 years and never got pregnant. i use triple protection, bc pills, condoms and spermicide.<P>jcm put it perfectly: For a woman, agreement to sex is not an agreement to parenthood. IT should not be for a man either. If a woman has an unwanted pregnancy she has 3 choices :<BR> 1. She can have the baby and keep it.<BR> 2. She can have the baby and put it up for adoption.<BR> 3. She can have an abortion.<P>A man has 2 choices<BR> 1. He can do what the judge tells him to do.<BR> 2. He can go to jail.<P>sorry, but your presence here has turned a place i used to come for comfort, into a place i don't feel comfortable in.<P>to everyone else here, probably won't be popping in here for awhile, don't feel comfortable here. i was doing so good, but with our latest OW's posting here, i have fell back to where i used to be, all those feelings i had overcome are back. so take care.<P>a sad happy_girl<P><BR> <P>

OhBrat,<P>You sound very knowledgeable about family law, and in another thread you even mentioned that you have the good fortune of having a family law Judge as a family friend, etc., to give you first hand accurate advice on current legislation. Why are you debating with the wives here about the issues that you already have answers to and which you have already decided upon?<P>I am not going to bash the wife for you.<P>Wondering Why?<BR>weep

Happy_girl:<P>I'm with you! I popped in today just to see what's going on and like you, I'm not comfortable with Obratti's presence. <P>Obratti: Go have your baby, get your child support and MOVE ON! Regardless of how much he lied to you, you slept with someone else's husband. If you'd practiced birth control in the first place, you wouldn't be pregnant. I may have been on the few who never suggested you give your baby up for adoption. That's your choice. But it's probably because of you and your presence that this MM's wife is acting like a "phycho". Suck it up and move on. You're pregnant...so what? So was the slut my H slept with. Have your baby and move on!! I'm staying away for a while. You've brought a black cloud to this board that wasn't here before. This place was somewhere you could come for support. Now it seems too confrontational and arguementative. You are simply a painful reminder of why we're all here.<P>Comfort

PS... b'bye all and take care.

Hello O!<P>I've lurked here for a year and have never posted. But I just HAVE to say this to you.<P>I admire you and I know your son will too someday.....<P>Good luck!

It seems to me, that if you're concerned about the father and his wife taking the child to another state and obtaining legal custody, this could be avoided by leaving his name off the birth certificate and having absolutely no legal documentation of his paternity. Is the father insisting on establishing paternity?<P>As Bystander says, as a single mother, you would automatically have legal custody. I think that if I were you and not wanting to cause any more trouble between the father and his wife, I would be distancing myself from these two instead of involving them in your pregnancy.