I have been coming to this message board for the last 5 or 6 months. Unlike a some of you who find out during or shortly after the pregnancy I found out after 8 years on Xmas eve no less. My wife had an affair with a co-worker of hers that became a family friend and then proceeded to take the trust I extended him to have an affair with my wife. He had the audacity to golf with me, play on my softball team and even allow me to set him up on dates in which we would double date while he was with my wife. There were times when my wife was pregnant that we would go out with him knowing that was his kid in her belly. <P>Anyways, we had all my three kids tested and my daughter 10 is bio-mine and my little guy 7 is bio-mine. The middle one who is 8 in nonbio-mine. He is my namesake and is the sweetest little boy. I am very motivated not to ruin his life for what his mother did. <P>One of my biggest problems is that even though my wife has been on her best behavior - better than me (still like to toss down a few and watch football with the boys) - I still don't feel she has told me all of the truth. I used to trust her inplicitly. I even condoned friendships with men. In fact, that worked in her favor when she was having her affair. Many of the times I knew she would be meeting him and/or a group of work friends and I made it easier.<P>I love her so very much and she is trying so hard to make me feel loved and wanted. I, in return, am in an emotional roller coaster ride somewhere between hate and love. It has been about 8 months since the tests were done but I still get angry and say mean things that I know are love busters. I do this when she does not want to deal with my thoughts of the past and have her reconfirm previous facts. This is causing me not to trust her and her intentions and do not understand why she just can't appease me and reconfirm the truth to me. My mother always told me that when you lie you can't remember your story and I have caught her in a few good ones that she had no choice but to reconcile to. <P>She was able to look at me in the face and lie to me throughout the years and how do I know that has changed. I feel there were other instances of infidelity but she is afraid that would be the straw that broke the camels back and wouuld never tell and I have no direct proof except a gut feeling. When something like this happens you start to peice meaningless things together that form a very suspicious whole.<P>I want my marriage to work and I am trying to get through this emotionally. We are in counseling, but the counselor tends to focus on my strong attitudes and domineering personality instead of working with us and we probably will switch. I keep telling my wife that she has had 10 years to think about her story and her actions and it is still new to me. She takes some of my actions as me shunning her efforts to love and care for me and we seem to be at an impass. <P>How did you guys handle the anger for your mates putting you in this situation and did they act the same way my wife does when it comes to reconfirming past nformation? <BR>Am I spending to much time in the past? I can't seem to help myself! What are your strategies? Any help would be appreciated!!!<BR>

Dear Ron<P>I am very sorry for your predicament.<BR>Please go find and type NSR for Notable Posts/Threads or Books.<P>It really is natural to want to know all about the past esp, when your lovely 8 year old son is non-bio. Your Ws is guilty and is trying 'attack is the best defence' because there is little justifications for the multiple affairs. However, in order to let the love rekindle Plan A appliers (sorry. not me) believe that you need to face the needs questions.<P>Please keep posting, I have to run, baby's not settling very well.<P>God bless you<BR>weep

Ronman,<P>I have never posted to you and I am not in your situation or anything even remotely close to it. Quite frankly, I don't think I could have handled it as well as you seem to be doing.<P>I am sure when K gets back from his work, that he will post to you advice. I strongly recommend that you listen to him. He has been a situation more closely aligned with yours, but still not with the 8 years of deception.<P>Your story has just been bothering me, what would I do? How would I handle such an awful situation? Knowing what I know from reading MB for the last 18 months what do I do?<P>What I am going to write, is not a recommendation. It comes with no useful experience behind it. But maybe it will trigger some ideas that will be useful to you and help you deal with this situation.<P>I am guessing at a few things here.<P>1. If the children weren't involved, I suspect you would be leaving.<P>2. Not only do you have children to raise but they are also very much a part of the deception and lies that have gone on for 8 years.<P>3. You suspect your W has been unfaithful in other situations.<P>4. You have no idea if she really loves you or just needs you to help raise the kids.<P>5. You are not sure what you want or what to do.<P>6. You do want to be a good father to all of your children.<P>Well, items 1-5 sure would suggest that you will have a hard time rebuilding the marriage. However, I believe item 6 is the key.<P>If you divorce, at best you will get partial custody of the children. They will bounce back and forth. Given what your W has done, I have to beleive that you will be the better influence on your children than your W.<P>So if it were me, I would stay for the children. I would be the best father I could until they leave home. (Only eleven years, just slightly longer than the deception has been hidden from you).<P>I would Plan A my wife. By that I would learn what I did wrong and fix it. I would not LB her. I would work on this as if I had a plan. In short I would learn to be as good an H as I can.<P>Then, if there are no other affairs to end the marriage before hand, I would divorce after the youngest reaches 18 and leaves home. That would be my plan. <P>The only thing that would alter it is if in the intervening 11 years, I found that I could now trust my W and felt that she truely loved me, was repentent for what she had done, and I loved her.<P>THe purpose of becoming a better H, is that the next marriage would be what I wanted out of the marriage. Plus, the children would grow up in the best environment I could provide.<P>To me this solves the quandry of giving the W what she clearly doesn't deserve. The children need my support, and I need to learn to be a better H. That would be the purpose of staying.<P>I wouldn't have an affairs. I would simply leave when the children did, and then see if there was someone out there that I could love and trust and would do the same for me. I am certain that such people exist.<P>Ronman, I would have a plan. I realize this has a bit of vengence in it. But the main thing is to raise those children. As long as W, is being loving (lie or not), faithful, and is not making my life miserable, I would stay in the marriage.<P>I realize this isn't in the true MB spirit. It has an element of vengence, but to my mind not really. Quite frankly if you cannot trust her and she gives you no reason to trust her, then after 11 more years you will have fullfilled your obligations. You will be a better man, and you will have time to enjoy life with someone you trust and love.<P>Well, is this strange enough???<P>Now, please listen to more reasoned and better advice that I am sure will come. Hang in there.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BR>Ronman,<P>Can you detail how you learned about the OM's child?<P>Bystander

Dear Ron,<P>I am back! Sorry that I left you dangling.<P>Generally, the process of discovery goes:<P>shock (maybe accompanied with compassion), denial, hurt, grieve (for loss of spouse through A), anger, hate, bitterness, pain, forgiving, healing, rebuilding and restoration (of complete self and / or marriage).<P>Most people are trapped at the anger and hatred and resentment bits longest. I have a post on Anger Management (go click Find NSR's notable Posts/threads. I did some research on that because I was very angry and am still angry, and lots of members find that one of the hardest to push out of the system.<P>I believe that Forgiveness is the only way to start towards healing and rebuilding. You forgive to set yourself free and your spouse free. I would recommend the book "Forgive and Forget - healing the hurts you do not deserve" by Lewis B. Smedes. Pop over to the Recovery Section and read Sudz's "How does healing feel like?".<P>At the heart of the your hurts would be REJECTION, and that will lead to low self esteem, and you question your self identity and worth as a result. I would recommend books by Derek Prince (yes, I have a few books given to me by wonderful family members to help out. In fact, one of them read a book first and coached me to a semblance of mental health as reading was about the last thing I want to do. Plus, I have to nurse my baby).<P>SUPPORT - you really need a trustworthy family or church friend to give you a listening ear and validation of your feelings at this very tough patch. Your wife is naturally defensive as are all WSs because they are full of guilt, lies and deceit. You need to get another counsellor who is trained in marital conflicts or you can get a church pastor trained in that area. Issues such as trust, acceptable boundaries of behaviour, communications, etc.. can be addressed along with your earlier agenda.<P>Ron, you need to take some time to reflect on the affair and you may want to write journals of your truest feelings, bare your soul, cry some or a lot, and then you can strategise how you can make the best of the mess your wife's A caused you.<P>God bless<BR>weep

Ronman: Sorry it took so long to respond, I seem to have more to do than I have time. <P>I don't think I know of anyone who's initial reaction was not anger. I do not know of anyone who "just got over it".<P>My 'discovery day' was a little over one year ago. It'll be one year since my wife came home in a month. I started trusting completely again...wait, that hasn't happened. Just because people stay together or try to work on their marriage does not mean they trust each other completely.<P>I believe Dr. H evens says in one of his concepts or articles that spouses should not trust each other completely because it helps to keep each other honest. I believe he even uses himself as an example.<P>Are you afraid she is still seeing someone? Do you have reason to believe she is? If not, are you worried that she did in the past? If she did (not presently), would it change things?<P>One of Dr. H's concepts says complete honesty. I think, and he explains, that at first this is difficult because one of the main reasons people hide stuff (other than not wanting to get caught) is to 'protect' the spouse. They know they goofed and do not want to subject their spouse to any further pain and sorrow.<P>Perhaps this is your case. Possibly you could talk with your W and explain to her your feelings. Tell her why you feel the way you do and what she could do to help. Explain that if anything did happen that she has not told you about that now would be the time to tell you.<P>It takes time to work through all the hurt and resentment that comes from infidelity. Another one or part of Dr. H's principles is time. It does take time. Tell you what, I'll tell when I trust my W completely again and then you'll know what to look for. Hold your breath! <P>Good Luck and God Bless.<P>P.S. Another part of Dr. H's principles state that you have to take time for just the two of you without worrying about the kids. This may be helpful to you at this point. Fall back 'in love'.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited October 19, 2000).]

<BR>Nice post, Paul!<P>The reason I asked about how Ronman found out was I'm hoping it was his W who told him. That would suggest she wants an honest marriage, too.<P>Bystander

bystander,<P>Ronman's method of discovery is in this post. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum35/HTML/000104.html" TARGET=_blank> Ronman </A><P>Hopes it helps. Actually, you have posted to him before, but this will refresh your memory. It is a sad and in some senses tragic story.<P>JL

<BR>JL,<P>Thanks for the pointer, and I do recall the story now. But *ouch*.<P>I could dig into my bag of ruthless tactics and come up with some clever retaliation measures, but I still don't think that's what Ronman really wants. The way I read his posts, what he really wants is total honesty from his wife. That's where he needs to focus his energy.<P>Bystander

Bystander, <P>THat is why I posted what I did. You have to start somewhere. And in my mind the hardest thing about this is that you feel you being played for a fool. He knows W can flat lie about anything and he cannot detect it. <P>He has been betrayed in the worse possible manner for almost 9 years. My feeling is that he needs to hang in for the kids. But in order to that he needs an acheivable goal. Hang for 11 years with the idea of leaving once the job is done. <P>If W can convince him that his life is better with her than without her, then he can change his goal. But it seems to me the acheivable goal is a Plan A with the idea of improving himself, being a good father, and hopefully a decent and respectable homelife. Once the main motivation is gone (the kids), then he is free to do as he chooses.<P>I mean this is a tough situation, and trust is going to be a long time coming, if it ever gets there.<P>I hoped that you, K, and Paul would come along and offer better advice. My feeling is that this is so deep that the only way to get to the other side of it is to have an acheivable goal that depends only on him and not his W.<P>Heck, even the other family members knew and deceived him. This is a tough one.<P>Hope you guys can help him.<P>JL

<BR>JL (and Ronman, if you're lurking),<P>Lemme think about this one awhile. Absent input from Ronman, my thoughts are along the same lines as yours. But that starts up a whole 'nother discussion - for example, if he really plans on leaving her after the last child is emancipated, would he be able to be a good husband in the interim? There are reasons to think not, such as cognitive dissonance (e.g., it would not be easy to play nice to someone you planned on hitting with a 'sneak attack' divorce eventually, all while harboring the sentiment that 'she has it coming to her').<P>You're right, this one is tough. I've read even worse cases, but this one ranks up there.<P>Bystander

Dear Bystander,<P>Many years ago shortly after my 7 year old was born I was thinking about moving to another state for a new job. We were at my parents house with all three kids and unfortunately my Dad was dying of Cancer and that would be his last Xmas. <P>My wife was in the garage having a cigarette with my sister-in-law talking when all of the sudden out of the blue she says "You think you have problems I don't even know who's boys those are upstairs" She then proceeded to tell a short story of her love affair to her and my sister-in-law immediately told my Mom who told her to not tell me for two reasons. The first reason is my Dad was dying and the other is that my Mom thought it might have been just a fling. They held that secret for 8 years to protect me. Noboby knows why she did that and I have yet to get a straight answer from her on that. My suspician was that she was feeling disconnected and cocky at that time in her life and that she had basicly was still wrapped up in the OM even though they might have broken up as she says and felt she would stay behind while I moved on with my life. She claims to have amnesia, but I know she knows why she did it.<P>Well he got married a couple of years ago. They had stayed in contact once in a while but she said they never talked about the baby and the affair and she never brought it up. Why are women such saps sometimes? <BR>He did not invite her to the wedding and she was pissed about that. Remember, I still condoned their friendship to this point. <P>Then he had a baby and Emailed her a picture. How bizarre! That set off a chain of events physcology for her to where she started telling me some things like they had a loving relationship but no sex. And this went on for a couple of months where I would say No Man has a loving relationship for two years and just holds hands etc. But, I did give her the benefit of the doubt. <P>I kept telling my Mom about these things and in return she must have told my brother what was happening and called me on Xmas Eve and told me the story about the garage. My wife was out of the house at that time picking up the kids from our childcare person. The kicker is that we had both taken the day off of work and finished our xmas shopping and had just finished having a very romantic interlude 15 minutes before my brothers call. <P>When she came home I told her the story and of course she denied it but when I told her we were going to ave to have a conference call with my brother the flood gates opened and the peeling of the onion started. I was so angry that I left for a few hours but did come back and calmly took the family out for Xmas Eve dinner and did not ruin the kids Xmas. Unfortunately I did not sleep either. The rest is pretty much the same as what I have read here for months about the first few days. Anything more let me know - it gets wilder after that with the OM! <P>

Just getting back (and wading through email...).<P>Briefly, it seems that the main issues settle to these:<P>1. Ronman doesn't want a divorce because of his love for the children.<P>2. Ronman need some anger management and forgiveness lessons.<P>3. Ronman's wife appears to be out of withdrawal and making a concerted effort to save the marriage.<P>JL---your idea about "Plan A" is great. There's no way that you're going to be able to put up a Plan A front for 7 years all by yourself (non-reciprocating spouse) however. But the bottom line is if Ronman could get on the program for a while, I bet the marriage would be saved. It's unlikely that his wife is a serial cheater from what I see here: this seems to be a one-person long term affair (which is typical for women). <P>Ronman, the bottom line is if you are of a "strong attitude" and domineering personality, then you should be working on it. This and anything else that comes across as a lovebuster to your wife. And you should be listening to her and trying to meet all her most important needs.<P>On her side, she should do the same for you. Complete honesty is probably one of your top needs now, and she should be giving it to you. But you MUST respond appropriately, and not use lovebusters, even if it's not honesty that you're particularily happy about.<P>If you're not happy about your counselor, and you're having anger management problems, switch counselors or find an additional one to tackle your issues. I always recommend the phone counseling with Steve Harley as a start---he should be able to get you on the right track. Call him at 888-639-1639.<P>I didn't have to deal with much in the way of anger after discovery. I was very angry with my wife before I discovered her affair, and that's one of the things that put our marriage in such a lousy position. I quickly realized it, and have learned to manage my anger much better---Steve was a great help.<P>Gotta go. I'll check back tomorrow.

<BR>Certainly nobody would fault Ronman for slapping his wife with a divorce suit right now. And yet I've read Ronman's postings several times now, and I'm convinced that he doesn't want a divorce. He might later, depending on whether his wife re-earns his trust. And its doubtless true that the sexist divorce/custody courts erect far higher exit barriers to marriage for men. But all that said, if he decides to remain in the marriage, he at least owes his wife the *opportunity* to re-earn his trust. I don't know that he is really giving her that opportunity, and I believe a Plan A would help in that regard.<P>Ronman also appears to be frustrated that his wife apparently has no incentive to be totally honest anymore. He's citing feigned amnesia and other obvious fabrications as evidence. I disbelieve she's forgetting anything (I can cite data showing that emotionally involving events tend to be better remembered, for example). However, I do believe that she's either afraid of what might happen when she tells Ronman everything, or she's arrogantly denying him the truth "for his own good."<P>Ronman's W must realize that she, too, will benefit from a marriage based on total honesty. At the very least, if she continues the charade of amnesia, she'll be left wondering for all time whether her H really desires her, or only desires who he thinks she is. And that thought must sting in light of the total rejection by the OM.<P>Bystander