Dear takingcare,<BR> Was reading one of your replies, and it sounds like you and I are in somewhat the same boat. My wife refuses to deny OC contact with OM. If I were to insist, it would be the end of the marriage. How do you handle visitation? Are you comfortable with the arrangement? Are you present during visitation? Any advice would be welcome.<BR> God bless you,<BR> <P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

I am not doing well with it actually. My H and OW work together everyday. She just came back from maternity leave this Monday. And of course she is talking everyday about baby & wants him to come visit. So far, he is not visiting child (that I know of). And I am sure she would scream if I was part of visitation. I am open to us getting child & bringing to our home. But my H acts like he really isn't interested in that. My gut feeling is that he is not being honest about what he really wants & the type of relationship he wants with OW. <P>For me, it sort of gets back to some MB rules about protection of spouse & if he wanted to be here, then he should work to protect my feelings first. These folks who think they are "doing the right thing" by keeping sperm donors in the life of their child are sadly mistaken. It causes lot's of harm to child in the long run. So their desire to keep child in contact with father is a bit of a lie to keep them in access to the father. This goes for your situation & mine. Your W and my OW both want to have access to the man who fathered the child. Otherwise, if they were really taking care of child they would not do this. <P>I am so sorry that your W cannot just allow you to be this childs father & get OM out of your lives. The goal here (or should be) to raise happy, healthy children. Anyone who stands back and looks at situation would say "the child needs to be raised by a loving couple", not some mis-mash of OW and OM and step-parents and God knows who else the "adults" drag into the childs life. Again, I am so sorry your W cannot see this.<P>Take care... Carolyn

I agree with what takingcare stated about the child needing to be raised by a loving couple. In our situation, I am the W pregnant with OC. Like I have read ( I think it was catnip) everyone's story is a little different, and ours is no acception (see our full situation, fyi by me)but, I don't see any place for OM in our lives at all. I agree with Dr. Harley's statement that all contact should be broken from OM/OW for the marriage to get built back to a loving, caring, trusting relationship. In our situation, OM has no idea about OC, and we hope to keep it that way forever, although, we will tell OC when the time is right about OM. We also have 2 other children (10, and 8) that will know as well. I know that my H has posted here for advise as to how to deal with the emotions of a H raising the OC. And I know that he would appreciate any comments, or advise. We are very new to this site, but have found a lot of advise, even though it was directed to others, and appreciate the advise that was directed towards us. Everyone on this site is in our prayers, and we hope that God can show you exactly what you need to do in this situation.<P>Tigger4jdt

Takingcare,<P> I agree with you 110per-cent. I have even refered to the OM as "the sperm donor". As far as I know, they don't have any rights. I'm sorry your in the situation your in. At least my wife doesn't work with the OM. I don't know how this is going to work, or if it can work. Is it possible for my wife and the OM to have a cordial relationship for the sake of the child? My feeling is, the more time she spends with the OM, the greater the chance is that this whole nightmare will begin again. I have turned this thing over and over in my mind, wondering if I could think of the OM as a ex husband, or possibly even be friendly towards him. Unfortunately, all I can really think about at this point, is how I would love to take him apart with my bare hands!(I know, I know, you can smell the testerone in the air!)<BR> I don't know what you do when your spouse won't give on certain areas that you deem critical to the survival of your marriage. Ever so slowly,my wife seems to open up now and again. I have learned the hard way that delivering an ultimatum is the fastest way to end everything. The course I am taking is to<BR>lighten up, no LB'S, try to eliminate other stressors on our marriage(ie. elimination of debt, rearranging work schedule so no extended time away from home, etc.), and basically try to outlast the SOB. One problem is that OM has nothing to lose, no wife, no children. I guess the ball is in my wifes court, only shes' had it so long I'm afraid I've forgotten how to dribble!<BR> Thanx for listenin,<BR> God bless you<P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

Tigger,<BR> I didn't mean to ignore your reply.<BR>Since you are in my wifes' shoes, you could give very valuable insight. <BR> I seem to be backwards from some of the other men on this sight. I have no problems with the OC.( I hate that term, from now on will refer to her as Angel,because she is.) I'm afraid I'm becomming too attatched to her. If my feelings for this baby were all I had to deal with, I'd be golden!<BR> I know my wife still loves OM, and thats why she takes the baby to see him.<BR>Angel gets nothing from these visits, she's three months old. <BR> Tigger, I know my wife feels terrible guilt, I watched her beat herself up for months. How can I help?<BR> <BR> God bless you<P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

Lynton: Just fyi OP can sue for paternity. They can sue for visitation. They are also sueing for the right to pay child support for the next 18 years. <P>OP's need to be gone in any situation when the spouse and wayward-spouse are trying to reconcile. No exceptions.<P>People say that children have a right to know their parents. Maybe, maybe not. God put you here to serve Him nothing else. So anything other than the right to life is a bonus.<P>Personally I believe one of those bonus rights is the right to grow up happy, and for the most part, bouncing back and forth between parents is not happy. Especially when the 'OC' has two parents in the marriage that love it.<P>Just my view.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited October 20, 2000).]

Paul, <BR> I agree, but how do I make my wife see. She is not ready to hear logic. She is stil immersed in feelings and emotion. The childs paternity has allready been established. OM is on birth record as biological father, an baby has his last name. OM gives my wife money,(pocket change compared to what the court would order him to pay) My wife is reluctant to pursue any court ordered CS at this point. She says OM has been decent about this so far, so she doesn't want to make waves. I know this is a crock, rationalization, what ever you want to call it. Since I'm still in plan A, I feel I have to be very careful in areas where she is still very confused and very sesitive. This is one of those areas. Personally, I could care less about the money. If OM dropped off the planet, I would raise this child as my own. I have offered to do this since the day my wife told me. <BR> So I continue to plan A, try not to LB, and try not to press too hard.<BR>I don't know what else to do.<P> God bless you, <P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

Lynton,<P>Yes, I am in those shoes, but they are off by a size . I have looked into what my relationship had been with OM, and realized, very early, how blind I was to what I was really feeling. A lot of what helped me in this insight was "His Needs, Her Needs". I am very happy to hear that Angel is so special to you, and that you love her very much. I can just imagine how hard it can be, but like other's (possibly you) have said, that when the baby was born, you couldn't help but love it. Another thing that hit my H and I is that it is in no way the childs fault, what has happened. My parents told us that back when we first found out, and had no idea what to do. It was very easy for me to have a complete break with OM, due to his aggression towards my H and our marriage. I wish I could give you better advise as to your W feelings towards OM, but all I can say is to continue to show your W how much you love her. And continue to be involved in Angel's life and upbringing. I know that my H showing me his patience and love everyday, has been a God send, and his commitment to mend what we have both broken has made me realize that I couldn't have a better life mate. Like I said, I wish I could give you some better advise, but we are so new here, I feel like a little baby at times! If there is anything more specific, please don't hesitate to ask. As you probably realize, we are completely open with what we have done, and feel that God is going to be able to use us to help other's in some way. We have 5 more mos to go before our child is born, and I'm sure there could be some set backs in emotions at that time, but we hope to build a strong foundation that we can fall back on if that does happen.<P>Again, you are in our prayers, and we hope that we have helped, even just a little.<P>Tigger4jdt

Paul,<BR> <BR> I forgot to thank you. I know you are a "veteran" of this site and I appreciate the opportunity to hear some of your wisdom. I know where you are comming from with your " right to pay child support for 18 years". I told my wife early on, that if OM wants to be a daddy, then lets let him be a DADDY! Read: 25% net income, health care expenses, clothing expenses, educational expenses, etc. Let him really get the daddy experience, like the rest of us daddys have.( I have two children by a previous marriage, I know.) The only problem is that my wife doesn't seem to want this.(At least not yet.) I have no doubt OM would rethink his desire to be a "daddy" with a much lighter billfold. I'm sure my wife suspects this, too. <P> God bless you,<P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

<BR> Tigger,<BR> <BR> Your advice is perfect, thank you. You, your husband, and your baby are in my prayers. <BR> I have to share something with you and your husband. As my wifes' due<BR>date approached, I was terrified. I didn't know how I would feel, being with my wife as she was delivering someone elses' baby. I dreaded this day for months. When that day arrived, something very unexpected happened. I was in the delivery room, my wife was about to deliver, she looked into my eyes and took my hand. I can't describe the feeling of came over me. There were no thoughts of OM, no resentment, no bitterness, no hurt. All I could see was my precious wife bringing a life into this world. I don't think I've ever been so in love with my wife as I was at that moment. I hope your experience is even better.<P> God bless you,<BR><P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

Lynton I recall reading your other post and that you have a 7 yr old daughter. What does your W have to say about that child? I know your D probably doesn't really know too much (I have 6 & 7 yr old boys). But the last name of the MM is just SURREAL! These two poor children are being set up from the start to be confused. I know I am preaching to choir on this.<P>Ok, I will give her the benefit of doubt. Old flames are often folks we paint up in our heads (women at least do this quite often) as wonderful folks & that life would have been perfect if we had just stayed with THAT ONE. So she probably has a little of that crap in her head. Plus, she is HORMONAL big time. I mean, I couldn't watch TV for 6 months after my first son was born. The commercials set me into tears, much less nightly news. So she may need a LOT of time to let the air out of her balloon. You may be sitting in Plan A for months. I know that is where I have been. And the fog has lifted a little in certain areas for him.<P>I cannot recall, is she at home or are you separated right now? I know Plan A is hard when they take off & go live with OP. It sounds like you are on track. This OM doesn't sound like someone who is actually ready to take on a family. I think he will be tired of this at some point. Is you W financially dependent on you? Is OM supporting her? Just curious. <P>Carolyn

Dear takingcare,<P> My wife is at home with me, and yes, she is financialy dependent on me.<BR>Angel has OMs' last name on her birth certificate, but my wife and I refer to her using my last name,( at home, not sure about in OMS' presence) I have reminded her of the horrific explanations that will be due both children. Right now she seems to deal with it by not dealing with it. My wife has told me she wants our marriage to work, but its like she hasn't figured out all the details yet. It's like the big picture is so terrible to her, she can't bear to look at the whole thing yet. It's beyond surreal.<P><BR> God bless you<P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

I feel better that this is a birth certificate name only. That can be corrected later if you want it to. <P>Yes, W is in a fog. She and your TWO daughters are lucky to have you. Poor Angel would be in a mess if she had to rely on OM for a father. I think your W will get a clear head eventually. <P>I know you probably don't have contact with OM, but do you think maybe presenting issues to him about best interest of child might help? If he gave a rats butt about the child he would step aside & let her be raised with her sister without confusion from him. I was raised with a half brother from my mothers first marriage and I always wondered about why we had two families. My brother going on vacation with his father, etc. Just confusion that made me resent a lot of stuff. Anyway I am drifting here. Just not sure if maybe a letter to him stating your concerns long term for Angel and your love for the child and her sisters love for her. I don't know. It may backfire. But I think it would be what I would do. If I could get our OW to give up child and hand over to me I would raise her with her brothers. But I know that will never happen.<P>So many of these sperm donors (and the mothers who have the children) actually beleive the BS about staying in contact with the child for the child's sake. I think it is their own guilt and wanting to beleive they are decent people. Well too late. They should suck up & take the high road and get out of childs life. If the OW in our case had put child up for adoption the poor child would be in loving home with two parents right now. As it is she is doomed to chaos. That sure is a loving mother, don't you think? <P>Oh well, I can tell I am on a soap box this morning Take care... Carolyn

Dear Takingcare,<P> The only contact I have with OM is when I pass the weasel in the hallway two ore three times a day.(we both work at the same hospital. Nice, huh?) From his past behavior, I would say an appeal to his honor would be like pi**ing into the wind. I think his only concern is what he wants,namely, my wife. I wonder how much he even wants Angel if my wife is not part of the package. OM is an only child with older parents, and I think he is used to getting what he wants. I have told my wife that sometimes the excitement and passion is in the "wanting", not the "having". She listens, but she doesn't hear, you know?<BR>I think she still buys his line of b.s.<BR>I had the oportunity ? to read one of his letters to my wife from early in the affair. Every cornball line in the book. (Why do they always throw in that "soulmate" crap? Makes me want to heave!) I just hope the weasel gets tired of waiting and starts to show his *ss. That's his true personality.<P> God bless you,<P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

My God, you have to see him every day? You must be a saint! If I were in that position I am sure I would be in jail by now! <P>I think you can outlast him. But I am sure it will try most every nerve in the process. At least I don't have the situation you are in of loving a small child that could be jerked around. There is a child, but I haven't see her yet. <P>I know what you mean about all the soulmate stuff. The way I discovered affair was bunch of stuff she had written about "true love" and "spending forever together". My lawyer about laughed when he saw it Said it was just unreal that I had found all this junk. You see I am very practical & when first to a lawyer to make sure my boys & I were covered in case he was about to leave us high & dry. Love is one thing & security is another. <P>Or course the woman who only wanted their love child & nothing else now wants child support & hints at his job security. So I think she will show true colors eventually. I think she would run if she ever realized that any visitation would be with me & my H. I would never hurt this child, but I do want the mother to know that the woman she has scorned is in the picture big time. Let her live with that thought <P>I am talking with my lawyer Monday about what I can do to push legal pursuit of what this woman has done (intentionally) to my family. She know H was married & had two sons. She even met my boys one day out with my H (that is a whole other story). So I think there must be something there for intent to cause harm, emotional distress, etc. We will see how good a lawyer I have. Maybe the thought of lawsuit will back her off. <P>Just a final thought.. could you move & convince your wife to move? Even as I type this I realize that answer is "no". I am sure she would not allow anything that takes her from him. <P>I will honestly keep you & your two girls in my thoughts. At least they have a good Dad. <P>Take care... Carolyn

Taking care,<BR> <BR> I did make my wife a proposal about one month after discovery. I told her to pick a town, anywhere in the country,<BR>a place she has always wanted to live, and I would find a job there and we'd move. She turned it down. That's when I knew I was in deep dookie. <BR> It is tough to see this jerk, it turns my stomach. He can't look at me.<BR>I don't know how many dreams I've had about beating the crap out of him. At least I won't go to jail for dreaming.<BR> I guess I'll just have to ride this out. I always seem to end up doing things the hard way anyhow. Hope things are going better for you. Keep your chin up!<BR> God bless you,<BR> <P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton