I put you both in my subject because you two seem so objective and very helpful to me.<P>Both of you made me realized that snooping around was not going to help me but hurt me more and possible destroy any repair in my relationship. Trust would definetely erode my relationship.<P>Well since the new phone calls that I listened to on his voicemail this is what happened:<P>He admitted to me besides the one A he had that possibly his is the father of OC, he had a couple of other chicken heads. He explained since he was not looking for another relationship he was just looking for attention, he basically used these women. He did not want or did not see them frequently, just when he needed the attention the ego boost, that he was not getting from me. So he admitted there was a couple, he saw them maybe once a month or every two months, just when he felt neglected. He had a couple because he did not want anyone to be attached or have them think it was going to be anytype of intimate relationship. He just spend long enough time to get attention and sex, wipe off and was gone, until the next month or two. He admitted possible being there 45min to an hour and half but never more than that because it was about spending time and bonding. So as a man would think get a couple make not real time with none of them or time for any feeling from them to bloosom and they all knew of his true love. He said that any woman who would wait on a man like this and think it would turn into something is not the type of woman he would want in his life even if he was single. Like he said they are basically ho's because he did not even wine and dine them at all, no going out, presents nothing. So they were not worth mentioning to him at first or did not want to give me any more pain.<P>He said the reason why he only told me of the one was because of the delicate situation of the possible OC. He said as soon as d-day he removed all others and what I heard were the other ones trying to keep it alive. He admitted the on the one that said love you and about the situation was rough, she was getting attached, he said he did not know why because it was like he was seeing or talking to her everyday, but the day he told her thats it, she curse at him and yell then to call him the next day to try to be apologetic, sweet, understanding and keep it going and the door open. It's not working he is done with all chicken heads. He realizes he has everthing at home and he two has to work at it because there is something he was not forefilling in my needs that made me push him away too. <P>We had a wonderful talk about karma, growing up and what we needed in our relationship. What we both expect from our relationship. He realized how immature he acted. How irresponsible and inconciderate he was and playing russian rouellette. <P>He agreed and did so, change his cell phone number. There really nothing we can do about the work number. But I beleive if these women called this weekend to his old cell phone hopefully they will realize its over. But if not and they do have his work number and call he will be focused because of being in a work environment and let them know to stop bothering, its over.<P>He says as long as we are communicating the way we are, forefulling each other needs, he knows he has to grow up, he going to be 40 and needs to act like it. He tells me he want to be here with me, he want me and my girls, he wants our relationship and want it for the rest of his life. <P>As you both said before I need to concentrate on our relationship, instead of snooping around causing caios and more pain. I need to realize he is with me, we have not attachments, no kids together and we are not married in the legal sense, nothing to keep or obligate him to stay. But he is here and he wants me and our relationship to work.<P>This morning I was a bit worried, with now that he just change cell number that these women are going to be calling and how strong was he going to be and we talked at 430am. He must love me to wake up to comfort me this early. He told me that the only thing he can do to reassure me is to tell me this is where he is going to be all that other BS is done. He changed his cell phone to make me feel better, because this is what I needed and made me happy and feel better and he realizes the contact from these other women should not be so accessible. He says he wishes I would trust him in this matter and move forward. He is done with all of this foolishness he was doing and wants to move forward. Everything now should be about us. He doesn't want me to be on egg shell that I have to be perfect, he realizes that all these women seem so attentive because he did not see him everyday and they knew of me so they had to be at their best at all times and like a fool he did not see beyond that and just took in the gratification, but no more its over. He hug me and told me he loved me and to trust him in this matter. He knows to trust completely will take time, but to at least trust him enough to start moving forward.<P>Well I guess you guys and him are right, if I don't start letting go of this pain, I and my relationship with explode and be gone.<P>What do you guys think of all of this revelation he gave me now that I snooped? Do you think it was right of him not to mentions the other women because there was no possible OC involved and that they were as the one with OC nothing to worry about as far as a real relationship, like he says just some attention and a piece of a--? Am I ever going to get to the point of not wondering and worrying? Are the spands between good days and bad days, are going to get longer? Should I let go of mistrust and just give him a chance?<P>Help me, encourage me with your thoughts.

Wow, lot is going on, huh? Well, let me see where to start.<P>It still concerns me that honesty is only coming around after you have to keep after him over & over again. Maybe it bothers me because that is EXACTLY the way my H is. He feels hs is protecting me by not telling me stuff that will upset me. What he doesn't seem to understand is that everytime I find out something that he has failed to tell me, it sets us back and I am even more distrusting and less confident about our relationship.<P>Here is what I would suggest needs to happen. First, read Surviving an Affair. Make him read it too. He needs to understand these concepts of honesty and the policy of joint agreement and all the things he needs to do to make things "safe" for you. I am glad he changed the cell phone, because that is one of those "things" that needed to happen to show you evidence that you do not need to worry.<P>Second, after reading and talking, find a good counselor. A relationship is hard enough without the stress of OC, OW, your fears, your children, etc. Lot's of things all going on that the two of you need to know how to work together to deal with. He really needs to understand that when he feels neglected he cannot just run to the street and pick up someone. This is flat out dangerous! He could bring home some disease and then how will that impact your children? Please get him & you to a doctor also to make sure no STDs are running around. <P>Anyway, between counseling and reading & working on this you could pull things around. But it really is a bad sign about all these "chicken heads" (I like that phrase by the way). Men who seem to think that type of behavior is "just nothing" concern me. What else do they think is "just nothing"? I found out too much about my H and all the things he thought were not harmful to anyone (he admitted to drug use also). It really floored me. I thought we had the same value system. With 12 years together you think that you would have a clue about what is in a persons head. Anyway, set your goals & bounderies. Make it clear what has to happen and what SHOULD NOT be happening. It is up to him to prove to you that he is honest and honorable. You should not have to hunt around to prove otherwise. But it will take time. please give each other time to develop the relationship you want to have for the reast of your life. Too much is at stake. Plus you have children that need you to make the right choices for them also.<P>Good luck. Write back and take care... Carolyn

Thank you for your insight.<P>As far as the other chicken heads, he just really did not want to bring up more hurt. He said as soon as he told me about the OW with OC he broke off with all the rest. He wish that I hadn't gone to voicemail to find the others and he doesn't even know what the he--was going through his mind to save the messages.<P>In our conversation was to keep me informed of everything, was there anything else for me to discover. He said no that it's, it's all about us and only us.<P>As far as STD's I can't go tell next week for obvious reasons (monthly) and he will go the same day Next Wednesday.<P>He says he really doesn't want to talk about the chicken heads anymore and just move forward with our relationship. I don't think he trying to hide anything else by this statement, what do you think?<P>I am still scared, but just want to stop being scared and worried. I try to keep busy but sometimes it is not enough.<P>I do have the book Surviving an Affair, I do read it everday. He doesn't seem interested in reading the book itself, but when I talk to him about different issues he applies them, to grow up and reassure me. Completely clean the second life slate. He understands this and I believe he has done it. I also made him understand that we are going to have good day and bad days on general things. He says he completely understands life and two people are going to have differences, he wants to be me, just cause we don't see eye to eye on something he not running to someone else. <P>We made a pact that if for any slight reason whatever reason we are feeling neglected or not happy to speak up, not go to any other source or hold it in until its unhealthy for our relationship. <P>He agreed if he couldn't grow up and was even thinking of having chicken heads in his life again he would leave, end the relationship before ever putting me through or seeing me in pain again. He told he could not stand seeing me cry, or not eat and just be completely withdrawn. He doesn't want his cake and eat it to, he is really sincere. We at one point cried together. Wow for a 6'5" , 280lb guy, I was in shock.<P>Well I am going to try my best to keep the chicken heads out of my head. Just love him and move forward in our relationship to make it better and stronger and that what he wants too. <P>I will just pray to god to me the strength to fight off the worried demons and snooping demons. And through prayer and doing right in my life god will take care of me and make sure I am ok.<P>Thanks again, Carolyn<p>[This message has been edited by vazquezek (edited December 04, 2000).]

Dear Vazquezek,<P>I think that your H has made a very positive step by opening up, telling you the truth and by changing the cell phone number.<P>He also sounds very much like my H who got himself into this situation by using women the same way -- to relieve his frustration and his fears -- and basically because he was not grown up enough.<P>Although it is true that you had to push him to tell the truth, my H also told me that he tried to tell me as little as possible that would hurt me once he saw the pain he had caused me. For some reason, men with our H's types of personalities seem to believe that if you don't know, it can't hurt you. <P>I have since tried to make him understand that regardless of whether or not I know, the important thing for me is that he is treating our relationship with respect at all times -- openly and behind closed doors. <P>Counselling can be helpful if you can find a good counsellor. We tried in the beginning and I got some good pointers. I was absolutely amazed that my H, who in the beginning could not communicate basic feelings to me easily, was able to bear his heart and soul in counselling and really start talking to me.<P>It will be so hard not to keep harping on the "chicken heads" but I feel that our H's also need for us to show them that we are willing to take a chance on them again. In my case, I would tell my H what I needed to feel that trust again and he complied. My H used to tell me that he was working overtime when he was seeing the OW -- so for the first few months when he had legitimate overtime, he would call me several times while at work to re-assure me that he was there and it was not another guise. <P>Your H changing the cell number is one such sign. If there are others that you need for re-assurance, I think you should share them with him.<P>People CAN change -- it is difficult but not impossible. It sounds like your H has the will but he has been lacking the motivation. The pain he caused you and the fear that he felt over the OC situation may have been that motivation. Not an ideal situation, but we have to play the hand we are dealt.<P>I feel very positive about the open communication that you are sharing with him. Keep it up! Keep encouraging him to talk to you about his feelings. And, most important, talk about the situations that occurred in your relationship that made him run to other women. It may be easy to make the adjustments that will stop him from feeling insecure.<P>Make this a new beginning ... and with God's help you and he will make it.<BR>- Heavenly