Where do I start? I've been reading this message board off and on for two years, having periods of time when I've completely given up hope, etc to times when I hung tough, trying to make things work. Throughout, I loved my wife very much, even though we've been apart more than together during this time.<BR>She's been living on and off with a boyfriend but finally decided things were over and we were going to try again...So, we've been trying to be friends, spending weekends and the holidays together. She told me before we started seeing each other again that they were completely over and that she was no longer intimate with him. Well, on Christmas day I finally dragged some bad news out of her- she'd lied to me about being with him, not only that but she'd been with him twice without using protection and was now pregnant with his child. This from the woman that won't cuddle with me or even kiss me! And then she tells me she still has feelings for him, but is unsure what she wants to do since she doesn't think she'd be very happy with him and that he's too selfish to be a father. At that point, I was all for supporting her and taking her and the baby in...but the more she talked, the more she made it apparent that I was her backup if things didn't work out with the other guy. And that she wouldn't have even told me about having had sex with him or being pregnant if she decides to have an abortion! I tried to back out gracefully then and let her try to work things out with the other guy, which resulted in a huge fight. I'm not sure what to do- she's pretty much said that she'll hide things from me from now on, etc. And she doesn't know what she wants- to have the child or not, to be with him or me or alone. I've tried being supportive..but we've been through two years of misery in which she's chosen this other man over me time and time again...At this point, I don't think I can ever trust her again, even as friends. I'm 22 years old, recently graduated from college and working two full time jobs to pay off school debt right now. I love my wife to death and would do anything for her...but this other guy's feelings are obviously more important than my own. Perhaps understandably so...The only thing I can think to do is back off, try to be loving and supportive, which has always been successful in the past, but let her work things out with him, for the sake of the baby and I guess their feelings for each other. It's not what I want, far from it, but I don't see any other choice. I don't know how to salvage this. After all, she's practically living with him still while I'm a couple of hours away in another city and there is no way she'll relocate here or put him out of her life. To make matters worse, we have plans together for New Years that we both can't get out of and she refuses to take him instead.<P>Please, any advice you guys can provide would be GREATLY appreciated in this mess.<BR>

a_conundrum:<P>You don't say how long you've been married, or whether you have any additional children together. I'm assuming that the answers are "less than 5 years", and "no".<P>Based on the fact that this has been a long term affair (nearly two years), I'd be interested to know your side of what led to the affair. If you were guilty of "bad marital behavior" (not meeting needs, lovebusting), have you fixed it? How long ago did you start improving yourself?<P>Is there hope for your marriage? Sure. But I'm not sure that I'd advise that you save this one. Based on these facts:<P>1. Relatively short time together<BR>2. Long period of infidelity<BR>3. No children together<BR>4. Her being pregnant with OM's child<P>I would probably suggest that you divorce her. (Hey---you never thought "K" would actually say that here...). It seems to me that there's not a huge chance to be successful here---but if you fail in the marriage after accepting this child, it's going to cost you. <P>If you're not ready for divorce (and it doesn't appear that you are), and you want to fight for your marriage, I'd suggest that you read "Surviving an Affair". If you've done a reasonable job of Plan A (in other words, if you're not a monster), I would strongly urge you to go to Plan B. A no contact separation. In addition, I'd suggest that you process a civil divorce to protect yourself against child support. You don't have to let that stand in the way of a reconciliation---but I wouldn't suggest one unless your wife takes it very seriously, and is willing to end the affair and do counseling with you.<P>I'm raising an OC and loving it---but he's my third child. Not my first. And my wife (finally) ended the affair before the child was born. Your situation is messier than this, and the cost of child support for 18 years is a lot bigger going from 0 to 1 than it is going from 2 to 3. You can do it, but I'd advise you to think carefully about it.<P>And the Harley's can be a great help---Steve Harley counseled me through this. You can make appointments by calling the MarriageBuilder's office at 888-639-1639.

K posted his wisdom, opinions and recommendations to you, and I couldn't agree more.<P>The fact that you and your wife are so young and that there has been infidelity for such a long time in your marriage, coupled with the complication of her pregnancy, it is prudent and wise to save yourself.<P>If you remain married to her throughout her pregnancy and the birth of this child, there is a very huge likelihood you will become responsible for a child that is not yours. It's not to say that you cannot love this child and make it your own, but if your wife remains deceitful and unfaithful, it's pretty good odds the marriage won't last, you will be divorced AND left holding the financial bag.<P>You may be crazy in love with her, and perhaps down the road there could be a reconciliation like K said, however, there are no guarantees and I'd hate to see your young life saddled with a responsibility that is not yours if your wife is not 100% willing to commit to you.<P>I am sorry for your pain and your disappointment. Your wife is a lucky and foolish young woman. You probably need to give her a lot of time to grow up. In the meantime, secure your financial situation any way you have to.<P>Catnip =^^=

a_conundrum,<P>I don't usually post on this particular section of MB, but I saw your post and something came to mind that has been posted here several times. It is the definition of insanity.<P>Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.<P>Young man, K and catnip have given you very good advice. As much as it hurts take it.<P>I know it will hurt and I know you don't really want to lose someone you love, but she doesn't love you and she has proved it over and over again.<P>Take it from someone who has lived quite awhile, you don't need to borrow trouble and this woman is trouble. She may change and she may grow up, if she does then perhaps you two can get back together again.<P>Even Harley in his article about pregnancy in a marriage from another person recommends that if there are no children, that the marriage should be dissolved. You have no idea what your future will be if you remain with her, but I do. I have seen it many times and it isn't pretty.<P>Further, you may think you can rescue her from this deadbeat guy and from her own problems. Nothing could be further from the truth. You could if she thought like you, but she doesn't.<P>So a_conundrum, do everyone involved a hugh favor, divorce this woman. You more than anyone will benefit from this decision.<P>Are you surprised, that three straight posters have given you the same advice on a "marriage building" website? Don't be rebuilding a marriage has to be based on the honest evaluation that it is worth the effort. I don't think yours is and since you have no children of your own at this point, it is time to leave.<P>Hope you do think about this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

You've already received some excellent advice. I can only add that you sound very devoted and committed for someone so young. That is very admirable. I wish you the best of luck with your situation. Your wife sounds young and immature and very confused. I'm sorry you're in this mess and I know it must be so painful. <P>[QUOTE]Based on the fact that this has been a long term affair (nearly two years), I'd be interested to know your side of what led to the affair. If you were guilty of "bad marital behavior" (not meeting needs, lovebusting), have you fixed it? How long ago did you start improving yourself?[/QUOTE<P>Although I agree with most of what K has advised, I don't agree with that statement. To me, bad marital behavior are things like physical and mental abuse of your spouse, alcoholism, drugs or gambling the mortgage money and physical/sexual abuse of your children from a spouse. Anything other than that is "workable". And in my opinion, with the exception of physical/sexual abuse of a child, the others may be workable with lots and lots of counseling and the desire to help yourself. If I were to have an affair each time my emotional needs weren't met, I'd never be sleeping with my husband! Instead, I realize that he can't read my mind and I have to let him know what I need. I have to communicate. For me, any self improvement would be in the way of healing. Sure, there's always room for improvement within each of us. However, I feel that to say I'm going to improve myself so my H won't have another affair is not my responsibility. With the exception of some of the behaviors that I described above, there was no excuse for my H having an affair other than him just being weak and having poor judgement and did I mention stupidity I'm not even convinced that the length of the affair would indicate that the betrayed spouse exhibited "bad marital behavior". Seems to me the cheating spouse was the one behaving badly. Anyway, K, you always give excellent advise, as does Catnip. A_Conundrum, I hope you find the support and comfort here that I've found. Visit often. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Remember the sunshine when the storm seems unending...

PS: Will someone PLEASE tell me how to use the "quote" tags properly. I've seen them done on other threads and I thought I'd done mine correctly while quoting K. The actual quote is there,but shouldn't it highlighted/bold and shouldn't it say who originally said the quote? If anyone is going to address this, you can do it on a seperate thread. I apologize to a_conundrum for getting off topic on your thread. Please excuse me. Thank you.<P>Comfort

comfort,<P>You left off the last closing bracket. ]<P>Edit your message and add that closing bracket on [/quote"]" and you have got it.<P>JL<P>PS: the word "quote" is usually lower case. I don't know if it works in upper case.<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited December 28, 2000).]

Just Learning:<P>I've never heard this before. Could you please direct me to the exact site to find this information?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>Even Harley in his article about pregnancy in a marriage from another person recommends that if there are no children, that the marriage should be dissolved.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks,<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

catnip,<P>The statement is in the Q&A section regarding pregnancy from an affair. The exact letter is <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5063b_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>Harley letter </A><P>I hope this helps you.<P>JL

Hi Catnip,<P> There is a letter, it's either on this web site or in Surviving an Affair, where Harley advises ending the marriage. It was from a man in this poor guys situation. It may be in the letters regarding infidelity. <P> <BR> A-conundrum,<P><BR> I'm sorry you got dumped on so huge, so young. I try to think back when I was in my early twenties,( it's tough, that was a long time ago).<P> But I know one thing, I was not the same person at thirty that I was at twenty-one, not even close. You are a work in progress, and there are a lot of women praying they will meet a guy like you.<P> Take a step back and ask yourself if this girl has your best interests at heart, is this the girl you want to spend your life with, if this girl is willing to give more than she gets because she is commited to making a lifelong marriage with you?<P> <BR> Keep us posted, we're with you!!<P><BR> God bless you, <P>------------------<BR><P>Gregg

conundrum,<BR>I have to agree. If you cannot trust this woman you have no basis for a marriage. It hurts to let go when you've tried so hard but you can't make it work ALONE. I think cutting your losses and moving on is great advice in your case. So sorry.<P>Best wishes,<BR>J

a_conundrum writes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm 22 years old, recently graduated from college and working two full time jobs to pay off school debt right now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm going to be very blunt here.<P>If you stay in the marriage, you are going to become the child's legal father. This means that you in effect betting that your marriage will last longer than your child support obligation for the OM's child. Its a sucker's bet, and your wife dearly hopes you'll take it.<P>Did you know this, a_conundrum? Family courts don't care how many hours a week you work in your two jobs, or even that you are working diligently to pay off student loans. All they care about is taking 25% of your net pay in child support. If, after paying your 25% in child support, you don't have enough left to pay off your student loans or even live on, too bad. The child support obligation precedes any other expense - even food for yourself.<P>Something else you should know: For the purposes of child support, family courts disregard the expense of children born in second marriages. That means your child support bill for the OM's child will translate into a lower standard of living for YOUR children in a second marriage. Are you really willing to risk the possibility that your children from a second marriage might have to live at a lower standard of living while the OM's child gets the best of everything on your nickel? Just think: At your expense, the OM's child will be wearing clothes from KidGap while your own children are clothed from rummage sales. <P>And don't overlook the possibility of adding insult to injury. Your wife could keep the affair alive, divorce you once you're on the financial hook, and then immediately shack up with the OM. The OM would then get to raise his own child AND collect 25% of your paycheck to boot. And some states would even require you to pay for part of the child's college expenses. Tell me, do you still want to take the sucker's bet?<P>Legally deny paternity and get a divorce. By staying you are risking wayyyyy too much.<P>Bystander<p>[This message has been edited by Bystander (edited December 29, 2000).]

I will keep this short. Basically, if I did not have children, I would not be here. Relationships are hard enough without that baggage. And there are LOTS of very good folks out there who will work at a relationship with you as opposed to using you as a doormat. <P>Leave now and enjoy your life. Don't feel guilt. That is hers. Don't feel shame at not suceeding at this marriage. Somethings are out of your control and her emotions and mental state of mind are in that catagory. <P>Take care... Carolyn

I am very sorry to hear that your wife is pregnant with OM's child. Like you, I found out bad news on Christmas--OW is pregnant with my H's baby. I cannot believe that so many people find themselves in a situation like ours.<P>Although I am in a similar situation, since I am going through this at the same time as you, I really do not feel like I am qualified to give you advice. However, I did want you to know that I can understand the pain that you are going through.<P>Anyway, since it is very obvious that you want your marriage to work, I sincerely hope that your wife realizes what she has in you before it is too late. <P>

a_conundrum,<P>You have received advice from some of the people who are most dedicated to helping others save their marriages. These are some of the most respected people who post here.<P>Therefore, as painful as it will be for you, you should seriously consider if what you are sharing with your W can endure all time -- because that is what marriage is. Right now it sounds like you and she are on two different levels and are going in two different directions.<P>You seem comfortable and dependable -- an excellent person to fall back on -- who obviously loves the woman dearly. But your W does not sound ready to commit to life with you forever and she has even warned you that she cannot be true.<P>In cases where there are no children, I still believe that if the two people are committed to working it out, it is possible to salvage the marriage. But, you are the only one working here. And, although you may have good enough intentions for two, you cannot save your marriage alone. Your partner has to be responsible and up to meeting you halfway in the task.<P>I have said many times in my posts that this is the season of miracles and I will certainly pray for a miracle for you -- that your W will mature and wake up to the gem that she obviously has in you. But, if that awakening does not come, you are in for a long, difficult and expensive road without any guarantee that at the end you will find your rainbow. <P>Think carefully and ask God's help. You will find your way and we are here to help you.<P>God bless you.<BR>- Heavenly

a_conundrum,<BR>I'm sorry to tell you, but I agree with the ones here who have voted for you to get out of this marriage. I know that if I didn't already have 2 children with my W, I would have been gone soon after I found out about OC. When you said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not sure what to do- she's pretty much said that she'll hide things from me from now on, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>..warning bells made me go deaf in one ear!! Trust and honesty have to be foremost in a relationship and it doesn't seem to even be present in your W's vocabulary. I totally agree with Lynton about looking back over your twenties and not being able to comprehend some of the things you did. Maturity during this period of your life will make your head swim when you look back. You sound like a really good guy and level headed...make sure you re-read the legal aspect of accepting this OC as your own..heck, it scared me!! Take care and update us so we know you're OK.<BR>Floored<BR>

<small>[ February 10, 2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

You are so young, and have so much to look forward to in life. I also feel that you will be dragged down. It seems that if she is that indecisive about her life. She is only going to take you on a roller coaster ride. Get off! You have an enormous amount of good advice from this board. I hope you will consider it all.

a_conundrum:<P>Well, even if the opinion is universally against you working this marriage out---if you DO want to work on it, we'll be happy to do our best with advice to support that decision.<P>

I want to thank everyone for taking time to respond and for the sage advice. It's been a difficult decision, but a necessary one.<BR>I finally spoke with my wife - she was, of course, at the other guys house at the time, and told her that I was out, that I couldn't be romantically involved with her since it means that I would have to share her heart. Obviously, I'm not what she wants from life or else she would be with my already and, just as obvious, the other man is what she wants considering that she has shown me repeatedly how much more she cares for him and would rather work things out with him than with me. Perhaps many things could have been different if I'd responded with more backbone a long time ago the first time she was unfaithful. Although this relationship didn't work out (odd saying that, I'd always hoped that, eventually, things would work out, but now I have to force myself to give up that hope for the good of my own life), I have learned some valuable lessons about what I want and don't want in a relationship as well as what I'll allow and will not.<P>I didn't go with her to New Years - I sent her the tickets, etc and let her take the other guy at my expense. Proably a weak position to take, but I really had no desire to go, the idea was originally hers, and all of her friends were going. For myself, I had a quiet evening at home with some time to think.<P>Beyond that, I have an appt with an attorney next Thursday to have a separation agreement drawn up. She's still on my health insurance and will have to be until the divorce goes through, but that's something she needs anyway until her new job's coverage picks her up.<P>Beyond that, I've tried to be understanding; I realize she's going through alot, but distant for my own well being. Its rather disappointing that things are turning out this way, but much better to avoid a possible lifetime of grief and misery. At least, by being friends, I can hope to avoid a messy divorce in 6 months when we've been separated for long enough.<P>Beyond that, I'm doing much better than I thought I would be - work is a welcome diversion and I've signed up for a couple of computer classes to help with my career as well as working out more regularly again (and seeing results already!). I've decided to wait until the divorce is final before pursuing any other relationships and instead taking some time to improve myself and heal, to gain better perspective and to continue to learn from this experience so that I will not repeat it again in any future relationships.<P>Again, I want to thank everyone for the help - and for telling me what deep down inside I already knew. I wish you all the best with your situations; I know how painful they can be, but the strength and courage that I see in those at this site and others is inspiring.<P>Take care, everyone.<BR>