H and I have obtained regular visitation after long, expensive legal battle w/OW. OC (2 yrs) and I are building a good relationship and I can honestly say I have grown to love her.<P>Problem is seeing OW for pickup/dropoff. I handle visits ok except when I see OW bring OC to the door when H picks her up. It tears my heart in two to even SEE the person who bore my H's child. Staying at home is not an option, amd sometimes I look away, but it's hard to do sometimes. Besides, as the child gets older, we will have to have face-to-face contact at child's activities, so I really need to get used to seeing her.<P>I wonder how H truly feels seeing woman w/whom he shared a 6 year relationship. H swears he has no good feelings for her, but my insecurity cannot allow me to believe that. This woman has sabotaged my marriage and family for years, and I never realized it until late 1998. She has done so many things to destroy our marriage and is now SOOOOO vindictive. I feel as though she is a vulture watching and waiting for the last breath to leave my marriage so that she can swoop down and devour what is left.<P>Without rehashing all the gory details, trust me when I say that the woman is truly evil. Although my H says that he agrees that she is evil , they did, in fact, "reunite" very briefly a year and a half ago, but have had no relationship since. H is trying hard to help me get past all this and is loving and supportive, but I still have terrible, nagging fears, primarily because OW was/is obsessed and has proven thsat she is capable of hurting anyone (including her own children) in order to get what she wants (myH). <P>I am 2 1/2 years after DDay #1 and 1 1/2 years after DDay #2, and I STILL don't know<BR>how in the world I am ever going to be able to deal with this for the rest of my life? OC is in our lives to stay. and that's ok w/me. I have learned to deal with that and even enjoy OC now, much of the time she is with us. OW is another matter entirely.<P>Any ideas? <p>[This message has been edited by anniem (edited January 09, 2001).]

anniem, Ideas rat poison for ow just kidding. Gees I feel so bad for you. I admire you for being able to accept oc. That is the biggest reason we did not want to have anything to do with oc is because of what we would have to deal with ow. You must be one very strong lady. with love flowerseed

anniem,<BR>Your post is the reason when and if paternity is established and H wants visitation,I will leave.<P>I have weighed it out and decided I only have so many years left. <P>It's a tough decision.<P>One way will cause terrible pain and long recovery.<P>Other way(visit)will torture me the rest of my days as it will forever remind me,"that's the result of our broken vows" Innocent or not I could never "deal". H KNOWS but is still torn between duty for UNWANTED C or life with me.<P> Bless you,you're truly a forgiving special person.<P>I wish you all well.<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

anniem:<P>Based on what you state your fears are, I would suggest that YOU pick the child up, and leave your husband at home. Call it "desensitazation therapy". As you've said, you're going to have to get used to it. This will help. And by keeping your husband at home, there's less concern with her vulture-like activities.<P>It's not an easy decision.

anniem:<P>New rules have to be incorporated immediately if your husband expects you to endure the churning angst you must be experiencing every single time the OW is present.<P>Because you feel so much turmoil when your husband sees the OW when OC is dropped off or picked up, other arragements have to be made. It's time your feelings about all this are considered. <P>Personally, I could never allow this to happen under any circumstances. I would not want my husband to see the OW and worry about what he may thinking or feeling. More than likely he doesn't feel much of anything for her, but why tempt demons? <P>It's time to set up boundaries and guidelines for everyone to follow. If OW refuses to have you pick up and drop off the child, then you be the only one to go to the door when she comes to drop off and pick up OC. <BR>Your husband should make himself scarce at those times and be in the bedroom reading "Surviving The Affair" or "Passionate Marriage" while you are generously and lovingly welcoming the OC into your home. <BR>He should not pick up or drop off the child, ESPECIALLY if you are not right there beside him. A clear message must be sent. Now would be a good time to start this while OC is so young because OW may play games and withhold OC from your husband in an attempt to control and manipulate. If this happens, then simply don't see OC for a while...OW will probably come around when she sees she can't control the situation and may agree to your terms. <P>As the child gets older, it gets more difficult because the kid is then old enough to know something isn't right and could cause the kid unnecessary pain.<P>In exchange for this ultra benevolent act of yours, he should, without question, completely acquiesce to your boundaries, stay out of sight and allow you to handle the transfer. It is the LEAST he can do after all you have been through, after all you have agreed to do for him. <P>If you are kind and generous enough to share your life with the OC, have developed feelings for this child and have welcomed your husband back into the marriage, some concessions for your feelings have to be made.<P>It's time, anniem, for your husband to do this for you.<P>CAtnip =^^=

Ditto my opinion. As usual, K and catnip have good ideas. What little professional info I've seen re: visitation and cheating OP says the hurt spouse (or if possible a NEUTRAL third party) should be the go-between, always. <P>I have heard the argument that the betraying spouse/parent created this mess and should be the one to deal alone with all the ugly fall-out, but that does not take into account our REASONABLE fears re: contact between former 'affairees' and the feelings of having your life out of your control. And it is really critical that partners have joint agreements re: important issues like this.<P>So, I "vote" for your being the go-between. So long as you are polite and business-like with XOW, you will always be "in the clear"!<P>Let us know how it goes,<BR>Jenny <P>

Thanks to all of you for your responses. As a followup, I need some more advice.<P>I am not yet able to come face-to-face with OW yet. Just seeing her from the car when H goes to the door is bad enough. Besides, her home is where they spent much of their time together. Being in her neighborhood is painful, but to actually go to the door of their former "lovenest" is more than I can bear, at least for now. H, atty, and I have discussed a neutral pickup/dropoff point, but apparently the legalities of arranging that are difficult (and expensive) as usual; besides, OW would NOT cooperate with such an arrangement and probably throw us into yet another legal battle. She has certainly done aso with every other situation we have attempted to negotiate.<P>H does not seem to feel the urgency that I do about all this. His position is that since he no longer cares for her, it should not bother me. I wish it didn't. After 2 1/2 years, there are still so many unresolved things, at least in my mind. H and I have not bveen very successful in discussing these issues. We usually end up in an ugly fight because he cannot understand why I feel as I do when he tells me he is committed to our marriage, no longer cares for OW, and is trying to focus on rebuilding, etc.<P>I know that much of the work in our recovery lies in my mind, attitudes, and forgiveness. But sometimes I feel as though I'm alone in this. I'm still so sad most of the time, and that fact frustrates my H and only complicates things.<P>We went to counseling off and on for many months, but he had no expertise in affair-recovery and, I think, did more harm than good.<P>Please share more of your wisdom with me, kind friends.<P>anniem

I'm sorry, anniem, but your husband is a bone head. <P>He is completely out of touch! If he expects you to just say "Oh, OK" when he tells you he's NOW committed and expects you to believe him just because he says so, he's insensitive and dismissing your feelings.<P>The catastrophic, life altering upheaval in your lives that he produced have traumatized you. You are dealing with reminders that trigger jealousy, fear, rejection and distrust and your life has changed forever. That you should just accept his word that he no longer cares and this makes everything alright makes me want to thump him on his forehead and yell "snap out of it".<P>He needs to come here, anniem, talk to Steve or Jenn Harley in telephone counseling to get a handle on all this. His lack of care of your feelings does not follow with the MB Rules of Protection. He needs to be made aware of what your feelings are, your fears and the terrible time you are having with all this. In fact, in my opinion, the OC should come second to you. He should not be so involved with OC until he has made you safe and secure and reassured.<P>The court can appoint a mediator to assign third party pick up and drop off and OW will have to comply whether she likes it or not if it is court ordered. It's time to take her power away.<P>I have a lot more to say (as usual) but gotta run for now.<P>Catnip =^^=

anniem, Catnips advice sounds great but I get the feeling the only good if you did have the books would be used for would be thumping him in the head he probly wont read them will he. I know mine at this point would not, I think if I would have had something in the beginning he would have. They just dont seem to realize that just because they want to forget and get on with life we have a lot harder time at it. Is it possible to have a friend go with you to pick up child. I agree you have got to take your power back not let this ow have anymore power over your life. I know easyier said then done. I could not even deal with what you are being subjected to. with love flowerseed

What chance you could get him to look at affair-recovery books now? After the Affair by Spring does a great job of explaining typical feelings without bashing the cheater. I don't know how you can recover so long as he's got that you-just-forget-now-hunny attitude. That is an insult to the tower of pain we've each been handed.<P>And what about Flower's idea: taking a friend with you instead of H?<P>Keep posting! You're in a tight spot and we're rootin' for ya!<BR>J

Flowerseed,<P>I have been in your shoes. The OW in my life was also a manipulating, evil witch and she made my life hell. She was also ingratiating herself with my H's family and they were accepting her into their homes (mother in law, and sister in law) and visiting with the OC -- all behind my back.<BR>So, believe me, I know how you feel.<P>The idea of a third party picking up the child is a good one if you can arrange it, but that won't solve the long term problem of future gatherings where you will both have to be present. I can only tell you that time does lessen the intensity of the pain.<P>Even though you may think that 2-1/2 years is a a long time, you have a unique situation because you H went back to her for a repeat performance (I would have been terrified that she would have trapped me with another pregnancy!).<P>In my own case, it took me so long to deal with the situation because I always felt that this was the one person who had TAKEN my H away from me. It took me a long time to realize -- he is right here so I guess he was not taken by anyone. They had sex - well so do walruses (i think) -- so what. <P>Although it sounds horrible,I started feeling better when I starting thinking about how depressed she must feel when she sees US together - me with the man she wanted. You may think the whole situation stinks, but believe me, she has her demons too. Looking good and acting happy is the best revenge on the OW.<P>- Heavenly

They had sex - well so do walruses (i think) -- so what. <BR>Good job Heavenly! I never really thought of the betrayal in a humerous manner....Do walruses give great bl*w jobs too? ggrrrrrrr!!!<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

LOL! YOu guys crack me up!! Can I joke about the XOW being overweight now? Hehe (No offense to anyone HERE intended!!) I've heard her called buffalo b*tt... how 'bout walrus b*tt?