David and I were sitting on the sofa this morning, like we do every morning. <P>We sit together and drink coffee (the stronger the better) and talk about our many issues, about politics and world events. We talk about our family, our kids and our friends; we talk about God, and our blessings. We talk about what is in our hearts. He rubs my feet, I scratch his back. He tells me jokes. We laugh ourselves sick over the most ridiculous things.<P>Today we discussed something incredibly ridiculous, but it pissed me off. <P>We realized that in the twenty years we have been together, neither one of us ever received a dime from our former spouses for child support. <P>He/we never received a dime from his ex-wife who unceremoniously dumped a six year old and an eight year old on our doorstep leaving them for me to raise and for him to support, never offering any assistance for all the years until they grew up and left home. Nor did we seek any support.<P>I/we never received a dime of support for my son who was abandoned at age 2 by my ex-husband, who never concerned himself with the boy's well-being, never offered any financial assistance all the years as he grew, and then left home. Nor did we seek any support.<P>My Mother told me that she and my step-father completely supported me from age six, never receiving a dime from my bio dad. Nor did she seek any support.<P>However, the New York Family Court is seeking and mandating 60-70 percent of my husband's wages to pay for a three weekend screw with a stranger who intentionally got herself pregnant to scam income shares from someone she thought had money.<P>NY Family Court refuses to believe us. They think we 'cooked the books', ignored our tax returns and have forced us to file bankruptcy, get a divorce and are threatening my husband with six months imprisonment, taking his driver's license and passport and trying to put liens on a house that belongs to me.<P>This was not a woman he was married to, had a life with or had any kind of a relationship with for any length of time. Yet the NY court system is affording her benefits that a long term wife of several years might get if they had had a life together and children that they raised together.<P>I'm not looking for replies to my thread; I'm just mouthing off. I thought this was just too ridiculous to keep to myself.<P>All those years we managed without the help from people we were once married to, who we had lives with, who we had families with, who made commitments to us. All those years my stepfather and my mother made sacrifices for me, supported me and never expected nor did they receive any financial help to care for me. None of us ever got any help and we were the only ones truly entitled, yet we got nothing.<P>Isn't it ironic?<P>Catnip =^^=

Catnip,<P>I just wanted to chime in. That my mom was married and had me. She too was left with an infant daughter, on her own, and met a new man. But my dad (stepdad)raised me, and gave me his name, along with full support emotionally and financially. My parents never once asked for money from my bio dad. It is ironic. Those who truly love will move on with their lives. But everytime I think about this. I always try to reason with my brain, why would these women not seek the money. Afterall they slept with married men and got pregnant, after that anything is possible. It is a sick world. <P>babstr.

Dear Catnip,<P> You and I both know that life is not fair******<P> <BR> But we do know there are a couple of people who will have a pantload of explaining for St. Peter, right?!<P> <BR> God bless you, <BR> <P>------------------<BR><P>Gregg

catnip, it is ironic. my dad raised us alone, and never asked for support from my mother. and yet we face this. <P>gregg, how funny!!! st peter. thanks for the laugh.<P>happy_girl

How terrible,Catnip! Six mos. in prison? For what? Sixty percent of David's wages? What the hell are they thinking?????<P>Why the divorce? Money reasons?<P>H filed chapter 13 a few days b4 Christmas and ow and her mom sent a sherrif w/papers to sue H anyway. H was paying back 1000. per mo. Ow was pissed he didn't leave me and that he won't contact her I guess, the payments weren't enough.<BR>The money he borrowed was to build a "spec" house which sold in Aug. They knew it was a risk. They got back 18000. of the 24000. but aren't satisfied so H was paying back the difference to shut her up about A.(she threatened to come to me).Then it ended(A) and she ended up preg. I know she planned it. Hell hath no wrath like a woman scorned..EH?<P>New York Family Court sounds like it's off it's rocker! DAMN!!!!<P>I'll pray for you guys....<P> Debi <P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Catnip, You brought up something that I have been concerned about. Can the state put a lean on a house if H name is not on anything the deed and mortgage are in my name. I have had this house for 12 years. Sounds like we have alot in common. I agree it is ironic how this s*** works. with love flowerseed

Flowerseed: They can put a lien on HIS half, which I am assuming will spill over onto MY half and make it tough to sell, transfer or do what we want. I am not sure how this works as we don't plan to sell and the OC will be ready for social security by the time we do. For us, it probably is a non-issue because we intend to live here forever. For you, depending on what state you live in, if this was your house before you married and his name is NOT on the deed, it is not his asset and they can't touch it, unless you live in a joint property state. Check with a lawyer on the laws in your state.<P>Gem: The divorce is necessary to protect me from all the terrible things they (NY) are going to do with my husband, because he can't pay the exhorbitant amount they have mandated. There's no way. He doesn't make much money anymore due to his illness. He's willing to pay his fair share, gladly, but that is just a fraction of what they demand. Because it doesn't matter to them, they'll just throw him in jail for six months...for whatever good that will do...no one will get anything then. Hey! That makes sense!<P>Babstr: You were raised the same way I was and we were better for it. Did you ever go 'without'? I didn't. I had OK clothes and dinner on the table, medical...I was OK. It doesn't cost $1100 a month to provide for a kid. The system is evil, unjust and designed to suck unreasonable and inflated amounts of money from our husbands, causing our/your family to suffer. I doubt any of us would complain if the amount was only 17% of the wages and would gladly pay to end the extortion. But in our case, the 60% plus kills us.<P>Gregg: Hahahaha...St. Peter is standing at the gate kicking butt and taking names. The people in power who torture the rest of us will have a special place in hell. After all, when Jesus was in the temple with the money changers, he wasn't happy about the excessive taxation imposed on the people. He lost his temper and knocked over a few tables in protest. <P>Happy girl: And you survived, didn't you? Did it cost your Dad big bucks to raise you? We all get by. The OW's will get by, too. They CHOSE to keep OC's but also knew that the laws today are designed to reward them for getting knocked up and producing yet another illegitimate for the rank and file.<P>Catnip =^^= <p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited January 10, 2001).]

Dear Catnip,<P>Welcome to the kinder and gentler America.<P>Among the legal reports and publications that I receive there are some on family law (sometimes you have to have a break from the criminals!). It literally sickened me to read recently a report from a luncheon celebrating the Child Support Enforcement Program's (OCSE) 20th Anniversary. <P>The paper goes on and on about how the OCSE state and local partners are the "real frontline troopers". The guest speaker expostulated on the confusion and bewilderment of young children caught up in emotional and financial "squeeze plays". And, there were even letters from children addressed to their fathers - who did not live with them - telling them how great they were. Uuuuuggggghhhh! <P>President Clinton sent a message which I think exemplifies what is happening in the judicial system on this issue. He said <P>"Only when our young people are provided with the best upgringing possible can we truly say that we are prepared for the challenges of the 21st century. Yet, sadly, many Americans avoid their responsibility to provide basic economic support to their children. Strong child support enforcement measures are crucial not only because theyhelp provide children with economic security; but also because they send a clear signal to young men and young women that they shoudl not have children until they are prepared to care for them. And those who do have children must not be permitted to walk away from them. Governments do not raise chidren; parents do. We cannot rest until parents cross our nation begin to shoulder that responsibility. We must act now to give our children the future they deserve."<P>So our H's have now become EXAMPLES and they are being taught a lesson for having created children that they did not want. I guess that is why Clinton chose to have the cigar, right? And we, the legal wives, have faded into the background as if we and our children do not exist.<P>But, what really has started to burn me is that if the sex was by mutual consent, why are all the decisions made by the mother? Let's face facts, each of the OWs in our cases knew that our H's were not using any protection. So, either they lied about the birth control they were NOT using or they didn't care that a pregnancy might result (entrapment). <P>The courts need to wake up and smell the coffee. This is not the 1800s and women are no longer being "taken advantage of". I am all for equality on all issues and this is one where there should be equal rights for both parties. Courts also need to take into account ALL of the children and their needs. I personally don't think my children NEED to have 60% of my H's income leave our home to support another child.<P>Sorry, I went on so long, but I was really angry about this subject today and then I found that you had brought it up! Guess we were on the same wavelength today.<P>- Heavenly<BR><p>[This message has been edited by heavenlybody26 (edited January 10, 2001).]

Heavenly:<P>I can't tell you how good it is to finally hear from you again. It's been a few days since you posted and I was beginning to wonder where you were hiding.<P>Bystander is a true crusader against unjust support laws and will be interested to read your post. In his most recent e-mail regarding my situation, he states the hearing officer in NY has no one to answer to and is able to make decisions arbitrarily.<P>Bystander also suggests the hearing officer simply does not like my husband and wants to make an example of him and wants to destroy him.<P>By destroying my husband, he destroys me. He is ruining us financially. He is threatening to imprison my husband, threatening to take away his driver's license, his federal firearms license, his passport and seize our assets, which is our house...our only asset now since we lost the business.<P>While my husband and I are more than willing to pay our fair share which, according to NY law is 17% of his gross wages, we are mandated to pay over three times that amount and we simply cannot do it. <P>Court is on January 22 in NY and my husband is required to appear. We cannot appear; we do not have the funds to travel. We sent a certified letter requesting a telephone testimony but have not received an answer yet.<P>Last March we traveled to NY for the initial hearing dragging all our records, hired a NY attorney, rented a hotel. <P>We were told we should rent a room for three days. We made plans accordingly. We booked out flights, our room and on Friday when we were supposed to go home, the hearing officer demanded we stay the weekend and appears again on Monday. We were forced to reschedule our flight and incur additional penalty charges, pay for several more nights at the hotel, and our attorney was on the clock for all those days spending most of his time standing around in the hall waiting for our 15 minutes of 'hearing' only to take a 'recess' for several hours waiting around to be called again later in the day. This went on every day for five days. <P>No concession or consideration was given to us for flying out to NY, complying with all their demands and incurring the additional, needless expense...the endless cab fare, hotel costs, meals, airfare penalties.<P>The day we were to leave, we were ordered to stay yet another day and we were forced to once again reschedule our flight with yet another penalty, another night at the hotel and more cab fare, meals and attorney on the clock, standing around.<P>In the entire five days (not counting the weekend we hung around in our room) the hearing officer spent a total of maybe three hours on our case. This could have been done in one day, not five.<P>The arrears are already in excess of $15,000. My husband was very ill for all of 1999 and half of 2000. In fact, he was not able to work until May 2000. But, they don't care. In fact, even though they have all his hospital reports, doctor's reports, psychiatrist's reports, crisis center report, treatment facilities reports, diagnosis and police reports, they dismiss this information and ignore his illness. <P>We are requesting the court retroactively adjust the arrears to something fair and reasonable and in line with his earnings. Even if they require he pay for the months he did not work while he was ill, that's fine as long as the amount is adjusted to reflect his current wage. We are also requesting the the monthly payment be reduced from $1100-1500 down to $300.<P>None of our requests will be considered or implemented and we will be forced to consider unconventional alternatives.<P>We aren't trying to beat the system or trying to get out of an obligation; we are only requesting it to be fair and reasonable and doable. Not one shred of thought has been given to what this has done to me or the fallout this is having on our entire family. They don't care. It's all one sided. <P>No one cares that this was a planned pregnancy by a woman determined to coerce a man to divorce his wife and marry her, and if that didn't work, support her with the rewards/awards from the Family Court System, the very generous family court system.<P>It is a disgusting and sick society that allows one person make a life altering decision that effects the lives of so many without any consideration of the impact this has on many. No one else gets to have a say about any of it. No one else gets to decide. Only the mother. She gets to decide if she is going to sucker someone into getting her pregnant, use birth control or not, she gets to decide whether or not the child lives or kills it, she gets to decide whether or not she is going to keep it, she gets to decide EVERYTHING and there is absolutely nothing anyone else can say or do about it...we just get to PAY for it.<P>In addition to all this, she is often awarded a huge fat amount that a wife of many years might get when the OW is often just some slut-whore with no integrity or dignity who can only feel good about herself if she is under the illusion that a man is spurning his wife. Somehow she thinks this gives her value if a man leaves his wife for her.<P>OK. I said I wasn't going to do this again. Now I am all worked up into a snit thinking about the injustice and how this selfish pig knew my husband was sick, knew he was married, heard from me the first week of the affair, begging and pleading with her not to see him to have her threaten me and continue the affair, never giving any thought to our family. <BR>She told my husband "she'll get over it" as if I were nothing mroe than a casual date to be dismissed on a whim.<P>Isn't this absolutely amazing? I am so incredulous that people like this exist and that they are rewarded out of my pocket after already stealing and taking so much from me to begin with. They do these things and I am expected to pay for it, too. <P>I can't seem to stop writing (whining and complaining) yet I am exhausted-extremely tired and probably not making sense.<P>Gee, Heavenly, I guess you touched a nerve...hahahaha. Of course any mention of our Philanderer in Chief sends me into fits anyway. There isn't a more disgraceful example of inappropriate behavior anywhere. What a hypocrite. I heard he has a [censored] child tucked away somewhere; I'd love to know if it is true.<P>Catnip =^^= <P><p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited January 11, 2001).]

Catnip I copied a good portion of your post as reflects my sentiments exactly.<P>Planned to entrap pregnancy is my case too.<P>I'm going to church this morning and praying for a miracle. God does not always promise happiness....I pray for guidance to "walk the right way" even if it means to walk away from this whole f'n nightmare!!!!!<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Catnip, I am with ya too your feelings belong to most of us here. I like to refer to the Philanderer in Chief as nothing more than a pecker head he makes me sick to. Our case is no way as bad as what they are doing to your family but it is sick how we dont even matter. We get letters at least 1 a month the same threats driver priviliages revoked, assets threatend, jail all the same things they are doing to you and my h is only $800.00 behind now and they take the back amount that they set up out weekly its a sick world we live in . I have been going to call them up but It would probly make it worse. We have no rights. I just dont see how a person is to put this behind them when foc seems to think is there job to constantly there to remind you when your doing all you can . With love flowerseed

Heavenly, wonder how oh billy boy would like it if each of us bought him a box of cigars and stuck em right up his a**. See how he likes our message. with love flowerseed

Well, you all know from my prior rants that I just think it is ludicrious that OW can get (basically) all the benefits of being married without any of the hassel. If I stay with my H she actually gets MORE money than if I leave him (since my percentage of CS comes out first then hers). But if i had failed to file for CS back in June before OW did, then HER percentage is figured over mine and I get less dollars than I would today. That sucks. Period.<P>The basic premise is that government wants to take care of everyone, then decides that they don't want to take care of children that potentially could end up on state welfare. It is all a deal to get kids off state welfare. Period. They really don't care about families. That isn't the goal.<P>I have no problem with legislating a little "morality" and putting a little financial penalty into factor when people have never married. What else if a marriage license good for? Not much else as far as i see. <P>Ok, back to Catnips's subject. I raised my H's daughter and he never received a dime from her mother. Wasn't anyone carrying on about her paying up, since we were not signing up for state aid. They didn't care what I spent to take care of her. <P>Crappy system.<P>Carolyn

takingcare it is a bunch of crap me and my ex have a 15 year old and we have joint cus. Ive never recieved a dime was married 10 years with him 12 and never though nothing of it. Just goes to show that we are not made out of even any part of the cloth of these money grubbing pigs. with love flowerseed

Hi Catnip......Surprised? I just had to read your thread....you know how this upsets me to see you like this. As I was reading, different thoughts came to mind. I am sure the New York laws are different then MN.but is there a way you could start protesting through the media? Start a campgain regarding these issues..contact someone in NY that would support your ideas and work from that end..anything...girls lets put our heads together and come up with some ideas. This treatment is so unfair..the world needs to know about it..the public needs to hear from the familys that are in financial ruin, their suffering...and their pain. It's all one sided now,I think if the public knew how you all felt....you guys may move mountains. Catnip, you know if I can help..I am here....talk to you soon.<P>Kathie

Hi Vincent:<P>Glad to see you still occasionally lurk!<P>Media attention is not something any of us relish and want to avoid at all costs. In fact, I am sticking my neck out for public scrutiny by suing the cow for Personal Injury because my attorney is doing this pretty much for nothing (pro bono-is that what it is called?) and let me know early on he wants to set a precedence and make an example of these OW's who deliberately set out to get themselves knocked up and secure a hefty income share from our ignorant spouses. He wants to 'make a difference' and make a name for himself, too. He has visions of interviewing with Katie Couric.<P>If my attorney is successful in bringing this travesty to light, I am afraid there will be some spotlight attention toward me, and since we are keeping this from our kids and our families, this could surely be extremely embarrassing for me/us. <P>I have thought of all kinds of possible ways for me to keep my/our identity a secret; behind shadowed screens, voice changers, etc. All kinds of crazy, laughable scenarios...wigs, glasses, padded clothes, etc. Hahahaha.<P>My adversion for public humiliation is profound. While many of you see me as somewhat strong and dispensing fairly OK advice occasionally, the truth is I am deathly afraid of our family's reaction to this 'news' of the OC. I guess we all have something.<P>It's weird. Each of us here have a particular heartburn we harbor. With Babstr, it's the money issue and having to move, with Gemini it's being adamantly opposed to any contact with OC, with Flowerseed, it's her husband's friend's influences, with Heavenly it's the second D-day...and on and on. We all share the same issues but we all have our personal favorites, our particular angst. Mine is family 'revelations'.<P>I know I am wrong to keep this time bomb ticking in my life; but, it's weird. I prefer to be sliced and diced to ribbons by the courts and loose our [censored]-ets than to have our kids and parents know about the OC. Only intensive therapy will answer why this is such a terrible thing to me...I suspect it has a lot to do with my feeling inadequate for not being able to have a child of our own and the humiliation I feel. Somehow I feel as if I am lacking, not good enough. And I know that is ridiculous, but it is the way I feel.<P>I am worried that it is God's plan that my situation will be used as an instrument to make some kind of statement to draw attention to this injustice we all face, and as my 'sacrifice', everyone in our family will find out the OC exists. My most irrational fear. <P>Her (OC) mere existence is extremely painful to me. I think about her all the time and wonder about her, yet I know I can ever spend five seconds in the same room with her because it would tear my heart out. <P>So, Vincent, because we have come to know each other pretty well, I know we have discussed this before over coffee. Remember when we sat up at Starbucks and I told you that the attorney in Dallas was chompoing at the bit and ready to roll as soon as I paid him the fifteen hundred? Well, the truth is is that I've been stalling. I could have paid him a couple weeks ago and found somewhere else to use the money. I just know this is going to open a can of worms and I know I will move forward with this, and should do it soon, but I just wanted to get through the bankruptcy and find out what the courts in NY are going to do to my husband on the 22nd before I put the cat among the pigeons.<P>I'll make a vow right now to everyone that I will move forward with the PI lawsuit against OW after the 22nd.<P>My new name is Jane Doe for those of you who know my real name...hahaha. (Pay no attention to the woman behind the curtain!!!)<P>Catnip =^^=

Catnip, you make me laugh dont feel alone about not wanting anyone to know. Iam with you 100 % on that one also. I dread the day when our little girl grows up and learns of this and the fact that the daddy that she thinks is the greatest guy in the world could have done something like this. Maybe something will happen and she never will have to know. with love flowerseed<P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.

Catnip, another thought if you think going threw with your court case is going to do more harm then good dont do it. Also I took everyones advice and looks like h seeing his geek friend for what he is with me keeping my mouth shut he is able to see what a neg person this guy really is. Ah it feels good when they see the light. with love flowerseed<P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.

Hi Ms Jane Doe....<P>I fully understand how you feel...but sometimes I just want to scream at our Justice System...oh if they only knew what you are going through. The severity of it all.. Decisions can be hard to make, but darling...your a fighter..and a winner. After the 22nd you will know just what you want to do. Look deep inside..listen to those feelings, and you'll be ok. Have you ever asked yourself, where will I be in five years, will I be able to laugh about this or cry abut it??? Oh the irony of our constant web that is weaved.. See you tonight <P>KKKKKKKKKK

jane doe (catnip),<P>You do make me smile. I think you are right about our cross to bear. I do not know what I am going to do about my own daughter, if and when she has to know all of this. That is a real fear for me. But she is two so I really don't have to think about that right now. Where everyone is grown up in your family. <P>I think you should truly do what ever you feel is the right thing for you. Proceed if it will make you feel better, or drop the case. If it really will bring you more hardship than maybe you shouldn't go through with it. But I know we will all be here to support you either way. <P>babstr.