<BR>This has been a fascinating thread to read. I think I might have some insights as to why men seek out contact with the OCs.<P>IMO, TC was the closest:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only other little tidbit on "why" these men think staying in OC life is ok is that somehow they can see themselves as being "good guys..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Rather than being "good guys," I think a lot of men see this as a competing harms problem. They are aware that someone is going to get hurt, the question is who and how to minimize the damage. Thus rather than be a "good guy," they want to be the "least bad guy" possible.<P>In effect, what they are pitting is a betrayal with the spouse/marital children against the perceived damage to the OC due to no contact. When positioned this way, the decision is a no-win, although you can clearly see why men might decide to have contact with the child. A man might decide that his family's ability to survive and prosper in his absence is superior to the OC's ability to survive and prosper in his absence. And (ironically) this might be especially the case if he regards the OW as a vicious tramp who entrapped him! Because in that situation, he'd regard the OW as essentially unfit to be a single mother.<P>Bystander

gemini, I hope your son feels better soon.<P>This thread seems to lack any respect for other possibilities in this situation... How good it feels to find a group that helps justify our choices... but in this case you bash the alternatives. Each family makes choices based on their personal situations.<P>Taking a break now,<BR>Jenny<BR>

bystander, good point. hadn't thought about it that way. makes sense in a way.<P>jenny, i am confused. i reread all the posts on this thread and all i see is people posting their opinions and agreeing or disagreeing with what has been said. heavenly asked a question, and those who have posted have only answered with their personal experience/or the way they are dealing with it. we all know it is a touchy subject, and very painful for all of us. but like you said, each family makes choices based on their personal situations, some choose contact, some no contact, and some somewhere in between. <P>sorry you were upset by the posts here. but i am confused as to why, and don't feel that anyone has bashed the alternatives.<P>happy_girl<P>

Dear Jenny:<P>I don't think anyone here is looking for justification. I for one do not feel I need anyone's blessing to feel deeply about this subject. Unfortunately, most of us have real genuine heartburn over this issue. I know I do and I will never apologize for it.<P>I do admit to softening a little but I know I would have to be forced into contact and will continue to to be grateful our lives are returning to a once familiar cadence without the interference.<P>You have such a huge heart and are such a loving mother who has had many, many profound losses. Your kindness and acceptance is inspirational. It has often humbled me. Any softening I have acquired over the course of these past two years have been in part to you, and I'm not blowing smoke or patronizing you either.<P>I remember when I first started posting back in May of '99, you spoke of being open to visits with the OC and how you were able to include this child into your life. I couldn't imagine how you were capable of this kind of generosity and called you "more evolved than I am". Do you remember that? Well, Jenny, my friend, you still are. Because that is who you are and how you feel. And I respect your choice and marvel at the ability. <P>Perhaps I am a little jealous that you and your husband are at such a place where this is not a threat to you and you are able to put yourself aside to open your heart. <P>Your recovery has been more successful than most here on this forum and your family more cohesive. Your husband works with you, reads all the books and adheres strictly to a POJA. My guess is if we all had what you have acheived, we would be less threatened and less protective of invading intruders into our nests and more welcoming of the little stray bird.<P>You have been a wonderful friend to me and a true inspiration, Jenny. Please don't misunderstand these painful threatening feelings as puffed up militant justification and try to see we are trying to rebuild what we lost before we can even entertain the possiblity of welcoming into our lives someone who represents so much destruction and unwelcomed changes into the lives we thought we had.<P>I'm so sorry if you felt we were rounding up a posse to rationaize something that is a very real threat to most of us. For me, it is just how I feel deep inside.<P>Love you, Jen.<P>Catnip =^^=

as always, perfectly said catnip...my words always sound so unfinished, yours so eloquent, mine seem as if a 5 year old wrote it.<P>jenny, i hope you could read through my untalented writing and see that i was trying to just say that we weren't against or for anything. i really believe we all have a limit to what we can give, or handle. and i have said many times and will say it again, i admire those here who can accept the OC into their lives. and of course the men too. but i am not one of them, as i always tell god, i am just not that good of a person i guess.<P>happy_girl

Dear Jenny,<P>I asked a question to help sort out in my mind something that is very difficult for me to understand -- my H's rationalization for his limited contact with the OC. And, I was very grateful that you were one of the first to come forward and to offer some real possibilities for where his head and his mind are at. <P>Since it appears that most of the couples on this board have opted for no contact, they were happy to share the reasons why they believe it is awful to have contact with the OC. And, yes, it was wonderful for me to hear because Catnip just described me -- I am threatened by the intrusion into my family.<P>But, Jenny, as I said in my second post -- my H has a right to his feelings as well and I don't think I will ever change his mind about contact. But, since he is not the easiest person to bare his feelings, he has not fully described to me what has led him to the secretive contact he has had with the OC.<P>Being the kind of person that I am, when I don't have answer, I make one up -- and unfortunately, I usually make up the worst andmost painful one. So, I concluded that he must love this OC beyond all reason if he is willing to throw our marriage away over her. And that one thought filled me with terror because, in my mind, he must love the OC so much because of something that her mother (OW) stirred in him.<P>If I try to say anthing remotely like the above to him, he says "If I wanted to be with them so badly, I would be. There is no way that you could have stopped me from leaving if my heart was there."<P>My head knows that is true, but the frightened person inside of me is still terrified that the OC will be prettier, or smarter, or more talented than my daughter and that my H will be prouder of her than he is of our children. Jenny, you were right from the start. The WHOLE problem is that I cannot be adult about this issue. What I just wrote looks very childish and ridiculous to me, but it is exactly how I feel.<P>Takingcare and Bystander have truly set me on the trail of something by pointing out that my H may have "good guy" or "least bad guy" syndrome. What Bystander said about his weighing the betrayal of spouse against the perceived damage to OC due to no contact struck a nerve.<P>I recall my H saying a number of times right after we had our second D-day last year that I had asked him to choose between a wife and a child and this was an unfair demand. My H has always felt that I am strong and that I can handle anything. I have made a good life for us and I have a successful and demanding career which I handle easily even with two children. <P>The sad fact may be that he believes I will survive and our children will survive because of my strength. He may not feel that the OC is as lucky as our children because her mother does not have the ability to be the kind of single parent that happy_girl's father was.<P>What I guess I am searching for is the understanding and the "adultness" that can allow me to give him what he needs -- contact with the OC -- without the feelings of fear and threat that I am feeling now. And, I am starting to get that understanding.<P>I remember just before Christmas I was struggling with the idea of actually letting the OC into our lives and family and Jenny you wrote the most wonderful and convincing posts to me that really made me think from a different perspective. <P>Like Catnip said you are an extremely evolved person with a generous and huge heart. You are exactly what I want to be if I ever grow up. You are a success story and so many of us look towards you with the strange mixture of envy and awe. Please don't think that the impact of your words and your feelings are minimized in any way by the strong feelings of some of the others.<P>But, we learn from both good examples and bad examples. I am learning a bit from every single person who posts their stories but I hope that every one of us takes only the pieces that we feel comfortable with and apply them to our daily lives. <P>So please, Jenny, don't give up on us. We may seem to be an incorrigible group at times<BR>but really we are blind mice each feeling our way through the longest, most painful journey that we will ever take. <P>Your heart is guiding us through a good portion of that journey and we don't want to lose it.<P>- Heavenly<BR><p>[This message has been edited by heavenlybody26 (edited January 15, 2001).]

catnip,<BR>that was a sweet reply and I thank you. You are an important help to everyone on the board.<P>What I FEEL like women here are agreeing on is this: ANY contact w/OC is ALWAYS worse than no contact, for EVERYONE involved. I hate blanket statements. But maybe I've misunderstood. I disagree that it's always harmful. Though few, I have heard of people successfully sharing OC and it is a heartbreak to me to see that dis'd here, of all places, especially when H and I have worked so hard on a compromise in our own case. <P>Marriage/family unity comes first, and legal obligations (child support). IF there is any emotional energy left for OC, that is up to H and W by JOINT AGREEMENT, (which is obviously missing in Heavenly's case and harmful to her marriage). <P>catnip, you are right: I AM blessed to have such a reasonable, dedicated and loving H, though I also think we are forever hurt, shamed and will be misunderstood due to his sick affair, irregardless of contact w/OC. <P>God bless all...<BR>Really am taking a break.<BR>Jenny

Jenny,<P>i agree with Catnip. I am sorry if at times I sound a little harsh. I am trying to lose the anger, but I too feel the same way. I can't open my heart to someone who represents so much pain. My anger is not directly towards the OC, I do feel sorry for her. I am sorry if you felt like this was a gang up on you. I have always appreciated your words of wisdom and your honesty. <P>babstr.

Gemini: I hope that your son will improve with the medication. This must be so awful for you to deal with on top of everything else with the OC. My prayers are with you and him. You wrote a wonderful letter to your H, but I hope that you won't have to send it. I hope that as the weeks go by and he sees how this situation is affecting your family, your H will come to a conclusion that will allow you to stay together.<P>Flowerseed: you expressed one of my greatest fears - when my children find out about the OC. I have a plan to tell them because I believe it would be important for them to hear it from me rather than from less well-intentioned people.<P>Babstr: I think it annoys my H when I call him a sperm donor. He simply cannot think of the situation in those terms. It would be so much easier for us if we had the same type of understanding on this issue that you have with your H but he's a grown man and I can't change his mind.<P>That is why I have been trying so hard to understand it and put it into some logical perspective. <P>I'm getting there, though, slowly but surely ...<P>- Heavenly

Heavenly,<BR>I'm sorry I missed your last post. Thank you, too.<P>I do think you're on the right track re: your H. I know most men do NOT care @ OC (some don't even care about legitimate children after a divorce!). However, why couldn't a man care about his biological offspring even if he hates the mother??? I would certainly have a hard time letting go in the case of, say, adoption. I'd be the kind of birthmom that wanted at least a yearly letter or picture just to say the kid is okay. I have often thought of my H's situation like adoption. I've allowed something like an open adoption, but we don't constantly inject them into our lives or us into theirs. Unfortunately, we didn't get to pick the "adoptive" mom!!!! Should the mom get married, my H would like the guy to adopt his OC, but as it stands today, he is all she "has" and I know he feels very guilty. The positive benefits of having a father involved in a kid's life is documented and one of the reasons I stayed with my H--for our kids. <P>No judgements.<BR>J

Exactly, Jenny, as you said, "no judgments".<P>No one who comes here should ever feel guilty or apologize for how they feel, nor should they be shamed into feeling as if their perspective is wrong, insensitive or unreasonable. We are all at different stages in our 'recovery' from the early beginnings of anger and grief to sadness and finally to acceptance.<P>We do the best we can. And that's good enough.<P>I hope no one here feels as though they cannot be honest about their feelings and thoughts without having to walk on eggshells or it defeats the purpose of this forum. <P>Lively, respectful debate is essential to clarify our thoughts and feelings. <P>Through this exchange, our opinions may change and evolve with time and process. <P>Chastising and judgments are out. Your own personal opinion of how you feel about the OC is your own to own...do not apologize for how you feel. <P>Do not be intimidated to say what you think or feel. There is no right or wrong answer. Your feelings change through the months depending on what is going on in your life.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>

Happy Girl:<P>I love how you cut to the chase and get your point across without taking up loads of space like I do. Sometimes I like to just run on and on and on and on....and I don't have to run off to the hospital for eight hour shifts like you do, squeezing in a few moments on the forum. I can sit here in my robe all day if I want to and expound and pound a topic to death.<P>You express yourself so well, HG, and add so much to our site, always there to reach out to newbies and offer consolation. You're a very important part of this group and I am very grateful you're here. Don't discount your contribution, HG...we'd be lost without you.<P>Catnip =^^=

Jenny, If anything I have said has hurt you or anyone else that is involved with oc in their lives. I am truely sorry I think you women that have it in your hearts to welcome oc into your lives are truly gifts from god. What I was trying to show by telling the story of the oc in my ex bosses life was that even though this child was raised by his father and a wonderful forgiven woman it still tore this child apart as to how he was concieved. It very well could be that it was because it was kept from him and he found out on his own. I really dont know its not something to many people talk about. They are a very religious family and I think he feels his father is a hypocrite it didnt seem to matter how hard father tried to make up for what he had done this child is going to hold it against him. I think the pain of learning how you where concieved in situation like we are in has got to be more devastating than anything I have been threw. In this case being that there are so many children in this family I think it made it worse on him that he felt he was different and he was going to make dam sure they all knew it and maybe what he was doing was trying to somehow get even for the way he felt inside. I dont know. I dont have the answers if I did I wouldnt be here. Jenny I do think you are a wonderful person as I do this woman that raised this boy as her own. I am truly sorry if this upset you. I think one thing it has showed me is even though with all my heart I dont want our little girl to know about this one day we are going to have to tell her. Someday maybe one of us will find a magic wand to fix all this saddness. With love flowerseed<P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.

I think the main thing that keeps ringing through this thread is the pain, one way or another, that this situation causes. If OC is kept a secret, there is pain & damage. If OC is accepted, there is the compromised situation of having only a part-time father and whatever a "normal" step-child situation is. Which, fear of a step-child situation is one of the reasons I am fighting so hard for my marriage, to keep my children from that type of a compromised childhood. My husband and I promised them a full-time family when they were born.<P>Whatever anyones choices are, I honor them. I respected my SIL for attempting so hard to integrate the OC into their family. There were still issues. The OW resented the fact that she had not broken up my brother's marriage. The OC saw how nice the home was that my SIL and brother had (my SIL made good money and had nice things). OC was resentful of how my brother & SIL raised their D. Just a mess and still is. I am now raising the D and she has issues with the OC. I am sure she will for years (just 10 now).<P>Whatever the personal solution is decided on, it must be a joint decision and it must be well thought out. And all parties (including OW). I still will always hold to the opinion that the best thing for OC is to be raised by two FULL-TIME parents. If OC is not put up for adoption, then OW should pursue finding a full-time father and marriage. But then again, I am foolishly looking for "the best" answer, which most likely will not occur.<P>I just really am adament about what is best for OC. I know lot's of folks are suspect about that motive. Even the arbitrator who set up CS for husband & OW told me "that is just what is best for you". My husband was even insulted and said "no, if she says that, she means it". I would take OC full time, but OW will not hear of that. She will not even allow OC to visit at my home. So I wonder who really has childs best interest at heart. One of the biggest issues here is that 2/3 of the adults involved (OW and my H) are both proven to be irrresponsible and self centered. And so NOW these folks are going to grow up and put a childs best interest at heart? Pigs will fly while reciting the Pledge of Allegence. <P>Jenny, I really hope you can understand that I do not hang out at this board or any other board looking for validation of my own personal agenda. I do welcome others point of view, since there can always be a perspective I have not heard of or thought of. I am here for guidence in a journey that has very few rewards and lot's of opportunities to mess up. So many folks have messed up in my situation, I am perhaps overly cautious about not adding to the pile of mistakes. <P>Take care... Carolyn <P>[This message has been edited by takingcare (edited January 17, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by takingcare (edited January 17, 2001).]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by takingcare:<BR>[B]Even the arbitrator who set up CS for husband & OW told me "that is just what is best for you". B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It never ceases to amaze me how these pompous 'do-gooders' dare to judge the real victims and try to portray them as self serving.<P>Takingcare: <P>I saw RED when I read that quote. There are only two victims in a situation like this: the OC and the Betrayed Spouse. Neither of these parties have anything at all to say about the outcome of their lives and are at the mercy of the two perpetrators who are ironically the ones making all the decisions and calling all the shots that impact you forever. <P>The corrupt system with their armies of mewling social servants waste no time in shaming the Betrayed Spouse for their reluctance to include an unwelcomed product of blatant infidelity into their lives.<P>And I want to know one thing; what is wrong with wanting what is best for yourself? What is so terrible about that? Are we expected to be sacrificial lambs on the altar of betrayal? I think not.<P>While truly wishing the OC well, I certainly am not going to be emotionally blackmailed by an OW who stole my life from me or by a system that manipulates through guilt making me responsible for something I had nothing to do with and that shows me no consideration.<P>Next time one of these clueless, insensitive 'do-gooders' chastise you for wanting to do what is best for you, remind them there are TWO vicitms here and you have been essentially raped into step-parenthood without your consent. Ask them to provide a government program for you to help you heal from the unbearable pain of being powerless to prevent your life from spiraling out of control-forever.<P>Thanks for letting me shoot my mouth off.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>

Hey, thank you! Yes, I have a very hard time putting myself first, but I do have a right to want what my H promised me... a life with the two of us, together with our children.<P>Thank you especially for the twist on "being raped into step-parenthood"! Ha! Exactly! Dead on. That is exactly how this feels. Violence perpetrated on you and then you are left with a living reminder of the event. <P>Yes, do-gooders and folks who are not living in this hell have little value to add. And their judgements of BS are just ludicrious. I have very few times in my life ever raised my voice at a stranger, but I did at her. Didn't yell, but did get emphatic that MY motives were totally about best interest of ALL children involved. One of the few times in my life my H actually supported me was in that room when he made the comment back to her. <P>Take care... Carolyn

Takingcare:<P>The line about being raped into step-parenthood was plaguerized by me from a post of Jenny's back in June 1999. It made such a huge impact on me, I never forgot it. <P>It says it all, n'est pas?<P>Catnip =^^=

<BR>"raped into step-parenthood" sounds like something I might say!<P>Although I do claim to originate:<P>"[gleefully] nail to the income shares cross."<P>Bystander

Dear Heavenly,<P><BR> Damn good question,<P><BR> I have struggled with this, and I have put myself in OM's shoes, and I cannot for the life of me understand his actions! If I had fathered a child by another mans' wife, and she told me she wanted to make a go of her marriage, I would disappear!! If I cared anything about her I would cause no more harm than I already had! Any contact with OC would be selfishness supreme on my part!! Fantasy and self delusion, continued contact causes nothing but pain!! Claiming best interests of the child is the ultimate rationalization!<P><BR> God bless you,<P>------------------<BR><P>Gregg

Gregg, good to see you back. Wondered where you were at.<P>Thanks for your two cents worth. I think the men who have posted have added a lot of value to this thread. <P>Carolyn