Gregg,<P>You have stated the main reasons for not wanting the OM in our situation to ever know of this pregnancy/child. One difference, I don't want to have anything to do with him at all, and the pain would be for the 3 children involved(me and my H S & D, and Abbi). We still have not decided when to tell our S & D, but as they know of their 13 yr old sister, given up for adoption, we will tell them eventually. I am not bashing those men/couples who do have the visitation, as everyone deals with this situation differently, and everyone's situations are different. I just feel, in cases like mine and Lynton's(and all the others), if you are trying to get your marriage back on track, and the H is willing to raise this child as his own, the OM shouldn't be involved. The only way that we would ask for CS is if OM pushes the issue of visitation. Although, with his history with us and particularly with my H, the courts may not allow him anything. Also, I would see if there was any way to have it stated that he would have to come to us, as I will not send my child to him alone. But that is something I hope to never have to deal with at all. I may seem selfish in this, but for those of you who know our situation, you understand that the OM's "Lovebank" account was drained, and then some on D-Day for the A, and he continued to put it further in the negative with each phone call/hang up, everytime he would walk over to the neighbors, and stare at our house to see what we were doing, coming over and begging to talk to me after I had told him under no uncertain terms did I want to talk to him......The list could go on. If he ever does find out, we will deal with it then. We have the police report about the assault. And that will never leave our possession. I have rambled again. Sorry <P>Tigger

I agree completely with Takingcare that the men who post here give the betrayed wives a whole new perspective -- thank you guys!<P>And, I truly appreciate the perspective of women in Tigger's situation.<P>Gregg and Tigger both gave a different type of selfless view on the issue. I agree that those betrayed spouses who can accept the OC into their life are keeping the best interests of the child at heart and sacrificing a great deal of their personal comfort zone to make this commitment. <P>But, it is also a pretty selfless view to say -- I am not in the position to give this child anything and maybe someone else could give more. That is very much like giving a child up for adoption. Like Tigger, I have also given up a child for adoption and I don't know of any act that took more courage.<P>When you look into the face of that baby, unless you are made of stone, you want to hold and cherish that baby forever. But if your circumstances are not correct and you truly want that baby to have more than you can give, you do what you believe is the right thing.<P>I think the deciding factors all lie in the relationship between the spouse and the other person. If the wayward spouse did not have a major emotional investment in the other person, then it might be possible for the OW to date and live a normal life while allowing the bio-dad to visit. <P>But, as in my own case, there was a deep emotional attachment on the part of the OW to my H. I believe that his involvement in the OC's life has kept the OW in "suspended animation" -- always hoping that he would decide to come to her and establish a real family.<P>More than anything I think it has been bad for the child in this case because she has not had the benefit of a true father-daughter relationship, nor has her mother let go emotionally to build a life. The result as I see it has been two emotionally damaged people.<P>Even though some of you have written off the guilt. I have not been able to. I do wonder about the OC and her emotional stability. It is just that I don't have the kind of "adultness" that it takes to actually make the commitment to allowing her into my family. As I said earlier, it is a deep-seated, competitive fear that keeps me from truly opening my arms and heart which are usually open to everyone.<P>The real problem for me is that I don't want my H to DO what I tell him, I want him to FEEL what I feel. But he doesn't. And after all of your posts I am thinking that I may have to come to terms with the fact that we may each need to go separate ways on this issue.<P>I am thinking that one solution might be to allow him to bring her to our home for visits but then I would go out with the kids and leave them alone. If he feels compelled to see the OC I would rather him do it on home turf than be tempted to "spend the day" with the OW and OC.<P>Tigger, I do want to say that I would have gladly adopted the child if the OW would have disappeared forever. The child would have become ours the same way as if we had adopted a stranger. I guess that is the way that your H and Gregg and the others in similar situations feel. It is not the baby that is standing in the way, it is the bio-parent that we find so objectionable being in the picture.<P>- Heavenly<p>[This message has been edited by heavenlybody26 (edited January 18, 2001).]

that is very true about the biological parent being part of the problem. though for us, we simply aren't ready for kids, even our own. the reason we have not had them yet in our almost 5 year marriage. the OC in our situation has a very big extended family on her side, her brother is a nice guy and i am sure is a very good male role model for her daughter. that is one reason i don't worry too much. i still feel guilty sometimes, as i think i always will. but it has lessened with time and the constant search for peace and all the knowledge i have gained since coming to marriagebuilders. i have learned so much and been able to absorb what others have experienced and am firm in my belief that the best thing for us is what we are doing right now. take care heavenly. you are such a nice person.<P>takingcare and catnip, such good points there. i felt so mad when the lawyer seemed like it was all my fault my H wants no visitation, that if i opened up my heart...etc. how can he even know what i feel? what it is like to be in this situation? "raped into stepparenthood", and bystanders famous "nailed to the income shares cross" sum things up rather well. why is only the child seen as the victim. the wives are too in this situation.<P>this discussion has brought many valid ideas on the acceptance or non-acceptance of the OC into our lives. it was definitely thought provoking, and very emotionally charged also. i think that anyone who is pondering whether or not they can or should accept the child into their family like a step child should read this to see all the reasons for it and against it.<P>happy_girl<P>

up<BR>worth reading again

Im sorry but I dont quite understand...I think if a man makes a baby then he should FEEL something. I mean it should not matter what the circumstances are. Those OC are children, little lives that will develope into adults. They have every right in the world to know their fathers. Especially if that is what the fathers feel. I would be ashamed of myself and my H ( who may very well become a father to OC) if he choice not to be a part of the childs life!!!I would and could never ask him not to know his child. Please dont get me wrong i HATE the idea that one day H and I will have to explain to our son, that hes got a younger silbling. But I'd HATE it even more if son ever found out i asked H to choice or that H was nothing more than a check to OC. I'm soory thats how i feel. Granted Im not in your shoes and pray i wont be. I think if i decide to remain with H i should take all his sins and baggage. Im not saying i will love the OC if it happens but that poor child didnt ask to be short changed. People make mistakes and should own up to them...Please understand thats just how i feel. Of course it may change tommorow! Still absobing my shock. Good Luck

Dear Cardinal,<P>Not to be men bashing at all but I think a significant difference between men ane women is that women can bond almost instantly with a child. I think it is that mother instinct. I do not believe men are born with such an instinct. Men bond emotionally with time. If a man never knows a child how can he be bonded with it. I understand how it is hard for a woman to let go, even right after birth. A woman can know her baby through pregnancy alone. Maybe that IS why we are bonded so quickly. Maybe that IS what we label as instnct. Men do not have that privelege. I am sorry when I hear of a child with only one parent ...so sad for the child, but I am not emotionally distraught,. Why should I be? I am not bonded to the child. A+, B-, O-...what does it matter? That child I hear about may have the same blood type...does that mean I must cry for them? Just an observation...<P>BTW, this is one of the most interesting posts I have read in a long time. LW and Les...if you are out there...this is how you should present a different opion. Non-judging and with respect.<P>Love and Prayers to all<P>bw

Cardinal, I have to agree with Broken wings' explanation of bonding. My h knew of oc birth and life for three years before I did. He never went behind my back to see child, he never wanted to. Ow made it clear he could only see oc if he chose to have her in his life also. Since he had a one night stand and never saw her again until a couple of months later and he knew he had made a mistake, and never wanted to be with ow in the first place having ow and oc in his life never crossed his mind. He was happy with me and our son. Child was conceived of poor judgement, nervous of a new commitment to our engagement, and too many beers, he never had a desire or attachment to see child. When I found out about oc I asked him how he could not care and not want to see oc, he said what he did not know he did not miss, and had no desire to see. Men are different than woman. Now he has had contact for two months and I ask him if there is a bond growing after first couple of visits he said no, and I told him to give it time. Funny I felt sorry for the oc, that husband had no feeling, now after a few more visits he seems when he talks to me about the visit and what they did he is warming up to child. I think once the whole family meets the oc my h may develop a bond as time goes on. We will just have to wait and see. The ow caused all this by hiding and refusing contact, it was her and oc as a little family or no contact. It was only when we got a lawyer that things changed. Anyway I just thought I would explain how my h fits right into the explanation that Broken wings gave you. Peace and Happiness to all here, Gabi1116

bring it to the top...Gabi1116

My Husband thought that he should have something to do with oc because ow told him he should! OW tried and tried to get him to have something to do with the oc but the more time he spent with them he more he realized that it was not something he wanted to do, She got him to come over to her house and play with the oc but h did not feel any connection to the oc and finally realized that it was more harmfull to everyone involved to continue, H realized also that ow does not really care if h sees the oc only if he is thee to see her, she is very sick and thinks that they have something going there, Anyway in my opinion I think if you can't give 100% its better to step aside and hopefully someone else can be the daddy because it takes alot more thaan biology to make a man a daddy!

(former name "IT THE SOUTH"<P>What can H offer oc's?<P>H knows that he can not give oc's what our girls have. And since our girls are teenagers and the oc's are boys younger than 3 years old he wants to get to know them.<BR>Since they are young black boys, they already have two things against them, they need that father in their lives, not for the mother, but for them, to support them. We don't want them to fall through the cracks. We want to offer them love and support, to let them know that someone do cares about you, regardless of what you mother says. This is also my take on the situation. And if need be, I will have no problem, not one that I can't overcome, taking care of them, if needed.<BR>For now, H give cs and may get to see them when ow gets over the fact of what she did to her sons. I know thaat H will take care of his responsibility---regardly of how it came about.

Hi Guys, <P> I agree that men don't have the same bond with children that women do. Men don't have the child as part of their body for nine months.<P> I can say that I love Angel as much as my other kids, maybe not in the same way, but just as much. When she smiles and says " da-da", I get the same feeling I had with my other kids.<P> God bless you, <P>------------------<BR>Gregg

I have to agree with everyone else that the bonding may not be exactly the same. Like Gregg said, it is definitely possible for a man to love a child that is not his bio-child the same as his bio-kids, but Angel is part of Gregg's family and that is the big difference between his child and other OC's who live with mother only.<P>I always believed that when my H was seeing OC that he was having a great time with his "other" family. That feeling kept me upset all the time and wanting him not to have contact. <P>Recently my H told me that there was no joy for him seeing the OC. She is an obligation, not a daughter. Everything about seeing her is strained and it causes him to feel stressed out, not happy at all.<P>He has tried to occasionally see the OC because he also believes that it is important to take responsibility for his mistake. But he does not and knows that he will never have the same love for and relationship with the OC that he has with our two children.<P>love,<BR>heavenly

OK I agree about mothers and the whole bonding thing. But the question was what does H think they can offer OC? I think they can offer ALOT. One parent households are not a bad thing my H came from divorced home. Saw dad ever other weekend and is closer to his dad than i am. My parents still togeather after 30 years!!!! It isnt a question of how much time but what happens in that time. Daddys make it a point to be avaiable....wither they are in the home or not. A man can and will if he is given the opp. bond with a child. Especially if the child is his.That is all i was trying to say. A man should feel the need to try to be a parent to HIS CHILD. Thats whats wrong with our country today. Men who think of them selves as sperm donors and not owning up to their responsibilities!! read cardinall 2000 topic. Thanks ever one once again for no getting pissed at me. Good Luck

cardinal, you have a point about what (any) parent does with the time spent together with (any) child, but I think there is a threshhold somewhere, some minimum amount that must be met for a decent, somewhat normal relationship, and for those of us long distance (I know I'm not the only one) from OC, we aren't going to get much if any time together. You add cross-country (or international) plane fare costs into the picture and it gets ugly!<P>So what IS the point THEN? A once/year "dad"?? A once-every-two years "dad"?? What is that to a child? <P>In some cases, no matter what the physical distance, the Married Man and his family simply cannot provide a loving relationship, due to the tention over the affair or whatever else. It would not be kind to the child OR the family to force them together.<P>Every situation is different.<BR>To each their own, and may goodness prevail.

GOOD MORNING ALL.. this is a really good topic. Yeah i see what you are saying Jenny. Airfair is expenceive. But it can be done. Like I said its up to the parent . Parent(in this case the father) should want to. Anyways, do you and your H have any kind of contact? It makes a difference on how the OW is. I mean is she respectful of your marriage. Especially since she wasnt in the beging? Well Good Luck all. I dont think I have much more to say. Well that is except I pray THIS DOES NOT HAPPENEN TO ME.Everyone Enjoy your Sundays!

Cardinal2000<BR>I think you may be missing Jenny's point. Yes, the once a year cross country visits are possible...but of what value are they? <P>H and I decided none except that it would clearly show OC what he/she is missing--like all those 'little things'..recently on this board was a story oh OC's resentment of half-siblings, etc. that grew from such a situation. <P>that's why H and I feel a 'relationship' would cause more harm than good for OC (not to mention our kids-we seperated the catagories by effect on OC and effect on ours, within OC catagory, we only considered their effect on OC) We feel that OC would grow up more 'well-adjusted' (for lack of a better word) without the intrusion..<P>of course that depends on XOW not telling OC 'daddy didn't want you' and if questions are asked, 'he couldn't be the daddy you deserved'<P>Granted, XOW doesn't agree with how we feel, but I think/hope she will realize that it is out of concern for OC, not just ourselves.<P>some(XOW) may think OC is missing out on siblings,etc. well if OC doesn't know of them, what is he/she missing in his/her mind, same with the father. <P>forcing contact(XOW or H), especially when there's so many physical/emotional barriers in 'the good of the child' may in fact do more harm than good, in OC's emotional well-being is truely what's kept as most important.<P>we all come to different conclusions is the search within our souls for 'what is the right thing to do' and this is where I ended up. And this is just the 'OC' side, the effects on our kids would be a tale all to its own<P>DS

Hi guys,<P> The best thing for the child is to grow up in a family unit. That is what H cannot give OC. I feel lucky that in my situation, I could provide a family unit.<P> The female BS's on this site are in a very different situation, much tougher, I think.<P><BR> God bless you,<P>------------------<BR>Gregg

I have posted on this subject before, but I will say this again.Before I learned of A/OC, my H was living a fantasy life with OW-she took the 1-2 hours a week he carved for her and OC and thought that was a life. In the meantime, he spent the rest of the time with me, his kids,and his job, which is over 50 hours a week. Because he spent so little time with her, I really was in shock when the affair was discovered, even the therapist was surprised at how little time he spent with her. so OW is now raising child by self with considerable financial support by us-I say us, because half of my husband's money is mine after 25 years of marriage, and she seems to have no regard to that at all. I think if she really wanted what was best for her child, she would find a father to truly father the child, not the man who served as sperm donor. If I were she, I would be doing that, but she seems to be waiting for H and me to change our minds. I know my H would like to do what is best for all, but the fact is, in these situations there is no best for all. The fewest people get hurt in my situation if OW gets on with her life with OC , and we get on with our life with our kids. I do not wish her ill well, nor child, just want what is mine to begin with that she dared to tamper with<p>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 20, 2001).]

It is not just about what H feels they can offer OC. Nor is this a bonding thing. I know women who never bond with their children. I raised a stepdaughter who was abandoned at age 2 by her mother while her father was in Air Force. The mother had NO maternal feelings. So I don't slight men who haven't carried a baby for 9 mths as to why they are not "bonded". It takes a lot of things to get that bond going. I honestly think that a lot of it has to do with the love that the parents feel for each other and their desire to bond together to raise the child. <P>So on to what man feels he can give OC. I will just never believe that someone dropping on every once in awhile is enough. But now that I am facing divorce, I pray that it will be. I am so sorry my boys will be short changed in their childhood of what they deserved. Perhaps my H will give OC what he isn't giving them. And hopefully my boys will not resent it with all their heart and soul. <P>Carolyn

Well, I didn't get through even 1/4 of this thread but felt like I HAD to post to heavenly's original message! Heavenly, you've done it again! You have said everything I feel...and then some! I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one! My MIL says she thinks I will accept the OC in 4 or 5 years, but I am more than certain I won't...and I don't want to be in a position where my family is reminded on a constant basis of this pain!<P>Thank you for making me feel validated yet again!<BR>~Irish