We spoke with ow tonight. She is asking my h if he will sign over all parental rights on oc to her. She says that she prefers no to ever get one more cent from us if she no longer has to worry about us interfering in oc's life. She maintains that her lawyer says that if his rights are officially terminated by the courts that she can no longer go after him for child support. Our first lawyer, who was a real [censored], said that there is absolutely no way that this can be done, because ow is not married (although she does have a live in boyfriend of 2 years) and there is no one else that can officially take up the reins as the father. Our lawyer that we have right now has contradicted himself on the subject. Once he said that it couldn't be done - that even if h signed off on all rights, ow could still come back and hit us with cs. Another time he said, sure, she can release him from all cs obligations. So I am very confused. Is there any way to make a legal binding agreemeent in which h is absolved from both all rights AND all responsibilities as the father? Or is it impossible to do because she doesn't have a husband willing to adopt? I know that part of the reason the last agreement didn't hold up is that it never went any furthur than both sides dropping their pursuits (hers of cs, his of visitation). I am aware that laws probably vary from state to state, but I would think that this would be a topic in which there is some continuity. I'm only asking so I know whether or not to get my hopes up on this. Of course before we made any real desicions, we would get our lawuers final say on the subject. Please respond if you know anything about this.<BR>-cd

Well, in an odd way I have participated in this situation as it relates to my neice. I petitioned the court for her custody, which involved revoking her father's parental rights (her mother is deceased). In reading the code in state of TN about this, not only are his rights as a parent revoked, also all his obligations are revoked. So that includes any potential child support. <P>Of course you need to read your state law concerning this. In many posts it has been stated that the custodial parent has no right to sign away the child's right to support from the father. In other words, mother (or father) cannot just "not accept" CS, since it is what is due the child. But in the state law for TN in regards to seeking revokation of parental rights there is also a flat out revocation of all parental obligations, including monetary support. <P>This must be put before a judge and cannot just be an agreement that the two of you work out. So if OW goes to court and seeks to have your H's parental rights revoked then you may also be out of CS and visitation issues. Maybe this is a blessing that will happen for you!<P>Take care... Carolyn <p>[This message has been edited by takingcare (edited February 19, 2001).]

<BR>cd wrote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She maintains that her lawyer says that if his rights are officially terminated by the courts that she can no longer go after him for child support.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I surely wouldn't take this woman's word at face value. After all, she could be trying to sucker your H into dropping visitation long enough that she can establish abandonment (useful for outright denial of visitation), and then turn around and stick him with a CS obligation again.<P>CD, I have to be honest, your question is state specific and you have to rely on legal advice from a lawyer. But I personally would have reservations about a lawyer who is reversing position so readily. Perhaps you should get a second and even third legal opinion...I would, were I in your shoes. Anyhow, the *usual* situation is that the custodial parent cannot waive a child's right to CS, so I would guess that the OW is trying to sucker your H into an abandonment situation. Be VERY careful here. I've said it before in this forum - the ONLY bargaining chip you have is custody. You want the OW to live with the fear that if she dies an untimely death, the child automatically goes to the father, who can subsequently deny access to the mother's extended family. I apologize if that sounds ruthless, but she's exploiting your weak spots, and you shouldn't hesitate to exploit her weak spots, too. Btw, its absolutely true that if she marries the boyfriend and the boyfriend wants to adopt the OC, then your H is off the hook. <P>So my advice is this - until you are <B>absolutely certain</B> that a revocation of parental rights will mean no possible financial obligation from then on, I would proceed to sue for custody. Because if you don't, you simply have to assume that she will use the CS weapon when she's sure that enough time has passed that she can argue abandonment. Don't give her that option.<P>Bystander

Dear takingcare,<BR>what you have just described would be a dream come true. Obviously, if PA's laws regarding revocation are the same as TN's we would be in the clear. More research is needed.<BR>Dear Bystander,<BR>All of what you wrote is helpful because it reaffirms what I had already thought. I would never ever take anything that ow says at face value anyway. If she said the sun was shining with not a cloud in the sky, I would assume that I needed to get out my umbrella and galoshes. So we will proceed with caution. At this point we are going ahead with the custody pursuit because, like you said, it is ow's biggest fear that we will get oc if she dies. I am hoping that this will back ow into a corner of some kind. I am especially looking forward to her reaction to her child support being lowered after mine kicks in. Her biggest threat thus far has been to tell us over and over again that she will put in for modification so that her cs is increased. Last night we listened to her tell us several times how much h will have to pay her when she does that. I'm sure my smile during that conversation was similar to Mona Lisa's. Let's see what she says when we steal away her only bargaining chip. I used an online support calculator last night to get a rough estimate of how much child and spousal support I will be entitled to, and the amount that comes up is almost 65% of my h's pay, so no matter what I think hers will have to be lowered dramatically. I know that the support calculator figures aren't really accurate because of our complex circumstances, but I still think that we are going to blow her claim out of the water. BTW, I am confused as to how we should explain our living arrangements to cs officials. Would we be better off saying that h pays a certain amount to me as "rent" for his apartment, or would we be better off telling them that we split all of the expenses on way or another? I should mention that the house receives just one set of utility bills and that we are not, on paper anyway, the legal owners of the house. It remains deeded to my aunt and uncle who bought the house for us and will remain in their names until we have paid back the "loan", at which time, it will be deeded over to us. At this point, we have nothing in writing to this effect, mostly because we wanted to look like we have few tangible assets because of the cs case against us. We have to show that we have established separate households, but I can't quite figure which way would be better, to show him paying a certain set amount as sort of a sublease kind of rent, or to show that he is paying a certain percentage of the total bills. Or maybe it all doesn't matter? Any input on this will be greatly appreciated.<BR>-cd

By giving up his parental rights, your husband would have no obligation to the OC. Legally, your husband would cease to exist, legally. However, you can't draw up an agreement on your own. It wouldn't be worth the paper it's written. You would have to go before the judge and prove that this would be in the best interest of the child. In other words, the OW would have to be stable enough to provide properly for OC…financially, emotionally, etc. It would be much easier to do if there was a man, usually her husband, that wanted to step in and become the father through adoption. The judge ultimately would decide what is best for the child. Each state has a variation of this. You would have to check and see exactly what your state code entails.

Maybe I'm confused, but didn't you all goes through this once already... and in court?! Didn't the XOW say she'd give up ch-support to have total custody, then sometime later take your H to court again? If the laws of your state were written such that your H COULD give up rights(visitation) AND obligations(ch-support), it would already have been done, right? It sounds like another ploy of the XOW. (have you ever wondered, if she doesn't want you to see OC SO much, if she has something to hide re:OC, something that might cause her to lose custody herself? HM)<P>Rooting for you,<BR>J

Dear Jenny,<BR>We did go to court where it was agreed that h would drop pursuit of custody in return for ow dropping pursuit of child support. However, h's rights were never officially terminated in any way. I know that ow was extremely dismayed to find that my h never signed off his rights - she thought that he did then. She says, and again you can't believe half of what she says, that she filed for cs only in order to get my h to finally sign off all rights. Says she doesn't really want his money, just wants to have full control and custody of oc and thought this would be a way to "force" him to sign off on her. Which we would do if there was some absolute guarantee that she couldn't come back later and refile cs against him. Whether there is or isn't a legal way to ensure this, I don't know. What we are looking for (desperately, I might add) is some official way of legally absolving h of all rights AND responsibilities. Probably can't be done, but you just never know where there might be a legal loophole of some kind we can slide through. Anyway, H is calling our lawyer again today to ask him very specifically whether or not there is any way he can be permanently free of this mess. If what takingcare suggests is true in PA as it is in TN, I don't understand why ow doesn't just sue ot have his rights revoked. unless she thinks that we'd put up a fight and she'd lose. Which she would if we fought it, but why on earth would we fight if it meant getting rid of her forever? So it's all very confusing. I tink she thinks we value her being in our lives far more than we actually do. in truth, I welcome her just about like i'd welcome a serial killer into our home.<BR>Anyway, pray for us please

CD, just to let you know a little more about what happened in my case. My brother was in agreement with me getting custody. He is facing some jail time and I think he feared his D going into foster care. <P>Anyway, I went to Juvenile Court and filed petition for custody (this is what your OW would have to do). They took my statement on what was happening and why I wanted custody. In this case, my brother is unfit & that was easy to prove. Not sure what they would do about your case. A person from the court came out and did a home study on me & got references, etc. This probably would not have to happen to OW, since she is the childs mother. Anyway, they went back to court and judge then made decision on what was best for child. In order for my brother to get custody of this child again, he will have to file a petition against me. Even if he gets well I cannot just "change my mind" and let her go home. So all his rights are revoked. I just cannot imagine that PA doesn't have the same type thing. OW will have to go and file to have this done. Your H cannot initiate it. And you cannot just stand in front of a judge and "agree" that this is the way things will be. Your H can agree to not fight it, but he cannot surrender his custody unless someone puts it in front of a judge in the form of a petition. And once his rights are gone, so are his obligations. Period. <P>I wish our OW would take this step. But I might as well be wishing for pigs to fly. Take care... Carolyn

Dear Carolyn,<BR>I think in our case ow would actualy do this. I wonder if I should put a "bug in her ear" (I mean this figuratively - if I rreally was going to put a bug in her ear it would be a big grease-eating roach) about it if we find out that PA laws are the same. Anyway, your information is helpful and I REALLY appreciate it. Luckily for us, ow is feeling awfully threatened by the thought of me participating in raising oc, not because she thinks I will harm her. Rather, I have been so persistant in sending oc cards, letters, gifts, etc., she is afraid oc will eventually like me better and want to live here. Like I tell my h, having me and my ability to play pshycological warfare is his best weapon. I even wrote to ow very kindly asking her permission to have oc as a "flower girl" when we renew our vows. She is steaming like a kettle of tea left too long on the stove. used to be when we talked to her she was able to control herself to some degree, now she yells and swears and threatens us every time. All the while i am so sweet and friendly and cool that butter wouldn't melt in my mouth. In this case, killing 'em with kindness really is working.<BR>-cd

<BR>cd wrote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I even wrote to ow very kindly asking her permission to have oc as a "flower girl" when we renew our vows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ohhhh, that's SOOOOOOO good... <P>I hate to be cynical, but my guess is what the OW really wants is the "child support" but no contact between you and the OC. Be VERY careful with signing away parental rights. The last thing you want is loss of rights but an obligation to send "child support" every month. This OW has already confessed to lying to the judge and laughing about trying to sucker your H into an abandonment situation. You should assume that she's a leech trying for "child support" at all times. Be very careful here, cd.<P>Bystander

Dear Bystander,<BR>never fear, we don't even give her an inkling that h might be willing to sign off. It's just if we found out the revoking his parental rights would mean that his obligation to cs would be ended, we might manipulate her into filing for it.<BR>yeah, I thought the flower girl thing was good, too. I wrote that I thought it would be so cute if she and her "almost-twin" brother could walk down the aisle together holding hands as flower girl and ring bearer. Also wrote earlier that i can't wait for oc to come here so that she can pick out which bedroom she wants for her very own and that oc and I can decorate it together any way she wants to. Also talked about how we can't wait to have a new family portrait done with all of us (h and me and our kids) and oc. Poor old ow picked the wrong person to play mind games with. I am deadly in my congeniality.<BR>-cd

cd:<P>My God. You have found the secret for sure victory. We could all take a page out of your book. I have never thought of this approach. What excellent, excellent tactics. I mean, the flowergirl thing when you renew your vows must send her into orbit...and decorating her room together...ugh! The heartburn! It is sweet revenge.<P>I am going to lay out a plan to implement according to your design. You are brilliant, absolutely brilliant.<P>My approach has been somewhat combative with terrible results. It's time for me to change my MO. <P>Here you are the same as as my daughter and I am learning something extremely valuable and wise from you. I abdicate my crown to you.<P>Catnip =^^=

Dear Catnip,<BR>Don't be too hasty in turning over your royal scepter - we have yet to see if my plan works. But already I see very positive signs. Since I refuse to lose my cool, ow is forced to lose hers. Like our lawyer says, "The 'scared' in her is starting to show."<BR>I have to say the key is to be persistant in your benevolence. As I have said, I have an extremely high (and mostly unused) IQ. Children are not often kind to peers with genius tendencies, so very early on I made benign dim-wittedness an art form. I am so very kind and considerate to ow that she ends up looking foolish. Every word I write, every word I say, is carefully chosen so that nobody can say that there is implied maliciousness, no matter how hard they look. When ow got the most recent letters, she called her lawyer to try and press harassment charges on me because I wrote about oc having a bedroom here. Her lawyer examined the letters and told her that of course oc would need a bedroom here if we get visitation - it's not like we could throw her into a bed with our sons, after all - and if she brought the letters in front of a judge trying to claim I was being anything but welcoming to her daughter she would come off looking patently ridiculous. During the last phone call, she carried on so much that her own boyfriend told her to shut-up, that she was just being rude.<BR>I like to think of myself as the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing, as soft and gentle as a lamb, but ready and able to bite when the opportunity presents itself.<BR>Let me know if you have any sucess with these tactics. <BR>-cd <p>[This message has been edited by cdcollins (edited February 20, 2001).]

cd, I thought about doing the same thing but I thought I might be nuts. Its been over a year now I wish I would have known about this place when I first found out. If the situation arrises again I am going to play the same way you are brillient. with love flowerseed

cd, you are pretty amazing. If I am ever put to the test I wonder what I will do? I have amazed myself so far as far as our story has gone so who knows what I would be able to do for my family. Well, I will have yours and Catnip's (and others) examples to follow if I can keep my wits about me.<P>BTW, I finally found my April issue of Guideposts and now I can match a face to this wise writing. Boy, behind that sweet face lies a fighter!<P>Carrie