to that other topic? let it go please. I understand you ladies feel the need to vent and I understand that I provoked you without justification and I'm sorry for the upset but like catnip said...it DID get you to "sharpen your claws" so to speak. I realize you may never believe my story and that's fine and I contend that I never should have posted here in ther first place. I do believe that what goes around comes around but it doesn't seem to work in my case. Now before you go getting mad at that comment, I'll explain, because I wasn't saying that in an arrogant manner. What I mean is, EVERYBODY that I have ever loved has cheated on me. I was the one who was always so faithful and did all the cleaning and cooking and pampering of my boyfriends and I was the one who ALWAYS got cheated on. One guy even told me I was "just too nice". When I was in the army, I even walked in on my boyfriend having sex with a girl that had came to our unit only 3 days prior. I reacted very harshly and with no self control and that's why I'm not in the military now. But what I'm saying is... the goodness that I sowed, was never repaid to me. So when I got with MM, I thought it was a "safe" relationship for me because I wouldn't get hurt when HE cheated on me and I must admit I had pretty much taken on a "devil may care" attitude and felt like nobody was concerned about me when they were sleeping with my boyfriends, so I'm not going to care about anyone else. I'm not saying it was RIGHT, I'm just saying how it was. My intention with the other post truthfully was not to antagonize anyone but it seemed like I just got ATTACKED so I went on the defensive. I'm not sorry, but I do apologize.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anOW:<BR><B>But what I'm saying is... the goodness that I sowed, was never repaid to me. So when I got with MM, I thought it was a "safe" relationship for me because I wouldn't get hurt when HE cheated on me and I must admit I had pretty much taken on a "devil may care" attitude and felt like nobody was concerned about me when they were sleeping with my boyfriends, so I'm not going to care about anyone else. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sometimes we just do what is right because it is just the right thing to do. If we all decided that our kindness must be repaid, all kindness would cease to exist in time. The world would become uglier and blacker, filled with desperate and lonely people lacking conscience and morals. It is already becoming like this...just look at these boards of destroyed families! And people like you justifying your actions and making excuses for yourself.<P>Maybe people of low character were corrupt and had no soul and did terrible things to you and betrayed you, but does that mean you visit that same pain onto someone who may be decent and caring and filled with gratitude for her husband and family only to have it whisked away at your whim? Because you feel entitled somehow?<P>I understand that you feel you deserve anything you can steal away because you have been hurt. Children are like that...it is with maturity and guidance, soul and conscientousness that they turn away from evil and heartless deeds that destroy families and cause this most unbearable pain. <P>You know this pain first hand, I am surprise you are capable of feeling that kind of soul killing damage and are willing to inflict it onto someone else...<P>I must be from another planet because I don't get it. In fact, perhaps the pain you suffered was minimal and what you really felt was just anger at being duped because if you really truly had that kind of pain, I cannot beleive you could ever do what you have done.<P>I hope you give up your baby for adoption to a couple who can give your child the guidance that you are not capable of giving it simply because you do not possess the maturity or selflessness to give a fragile new human being what it needs to become a decent upstanding valuable memeber of society. I fear that your deficiencies will spawn yet another angry and soulless teen without conscience, feeling the world owes him or her something. I am not saying this to be mean, I am simply telling you our society is in the sewer and is getting worse every day because of this mind set. <P>Our young are not acquiring or learning character, integrity and dignity from their parents today and it is a true tragedy.<P>My wish is for you and your child to live a full and productive life, respecting others and their families and the sacrament of marriage. I hope you'll allow your child to have the advantages of a loving two parent household, learning respect and integrity.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>PS Your earlier post is still being answered because you pushed some buttons and some of these late comers weren't here in the heat of it and are just getting in their licks now. It is the perfect venting thread. Thanks. <P><p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited February 26, 2001).]

So what you are saying anOW if the neighbors dog comes over and poops in your yard. Then we can be assured that you will run right over and be bearing your butt to poop in his. Sounds like you really got it together. WOW<P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.<p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited February 27, 2001).]

anow,<BR>Why are YOU still posting? I'm not meaning to imply that you don't have the right to post here, but you said that you were leaving and not coming back. I have a hunch that you really do want some help, but don't know how to ask for it without pushing our buttons. If that is the case, you need to actually write the questions that you have.<P>In regards to your kind acts going unpaid: Sometimes it is hard for us (meaning mankind in general) to realize that God doesn't work on our time. We expect immediate rewards for our good deeds, and we expect those who sin against us to be punished right away. Doesn't always work that way. I, for one, am guilty of wanting things to happen NOW, when I think they should, in the way I think they should. I'm always disappointed that people who do bad things aren't just struck down by lightning. But then, if God worked that way, I'd be long gone too, what with the mistakes I have made in life. I have to constantly remind myself that indeed "there are more things wrought in heaven than are dreamed about on earth." We just don't always get to know about them.<P>anow, if you do truly need help and/or support this is a great place to get it. There are "ow" here whose opinions I value more and more every day, who I would bend over backwards to help. If that is what you want, you certainly need to approach it differently.<BR>cdcollins

I am sure that the OW who has OC by my husband also had issues in life and things had not been fair for her. But I am not sure how that gave her the right to permanently alter the lives of my two children. I am scared of that logic. She knew of my children and just didn't care how she impacted their lives. <P>anOW, I do not think I ever got the reason you posted in the first place. What answers are you looking for? It really has appeared that you have been trying to explain to us how OW feel and explain that side of the situation. I am saying this without anger or being a smart alec. I just really do not know what you are trying to receive from us. Can you expain? Take care... Carolyn

Sometimes people only check in once and a while. They see a folder on fire, they want to check it out and add their comments. I checked them hoping that you had answered some of the questions. I don't think I need to add anything else, all the other replies have said it all. <P>babstr.

maybe I DON'T know how to say anything without pushing some buttons. I tried to apologize and I STILL get crap. Well, I'm not giving up my child for adoption, so there's no point even discussing that matter, but I'm wondering what do your husbands do that regains your trust after an affair? I KNOW that it is wrong for loving a married man but that doesn't stop me from loving him. My head can tell me all it wants to that it's wrong, wrong, wrong but my HEART just seems to have more power. Even with trying to have a "normal" relationship with him, I keep thinking about the "what goes around comes around thing" and I'm wondering if I can REALLY trust him to be faithful to me now. I know it is ignorant and naiive to believe that it couldn't happen to me because I'm "BETTER" than she is (and for the record, I have never thought that I was better than anyone) but once again, it's like my heart is calling all the shots. Thanks.

Dear anow,<BR>I have a couple of things to say, so please bear with me.<P>First of all, I have said before that "The man who marries his mistress succeeds only in creating a vacancy in the position." So you do have good reason to fear that he will be unfaithful to you. This is because affairs are not really based on love, they are based on the illusion of love. I believe you when you say that your heart is overriding what your head tells you, and I believe that you do think that you love this man and that he loves you. But real love is not based on betrayal, lies, and deceit. Real love isn't even what draws two people together to begin with. Real love is something that happens AFTER the lust wears off. It is based on the foundations that are built up during the first couple years of going through stuff, both good and bad, with each other. That is why so many marriages that began with affairs end up so badly. Once reality sets in, one or both people realize that they mistook infatuation for love. Evil begets evil. That may sound very harsh, but it is true. You can't expect a beautiful delicate flower to grow in poor soil - however weeds will flourish. I think that deep down, you don't want your relationship to be mired in weeds. So I still maintain that being with this MM is not good for you, it is not good for him, it is not good for your child in the long run.<P>I can understand why you do not want to give up your child for adoption. That is something that is done by the most giving, caring, and selfless people, and I know I am not one of them. But there are other options you can explore in order to do right by your child. Your child needs a full-time Dad - one whose heart will not always be looking backward in regret. I think that you would be doing yourself and your child a tremendous disservice by staying with this man. I know that right now it seems like you couldn't even imagine meeting somebody later and raising your child with him, but think how much better you both would be in the long run.<P>If you, deep in your heart, thought that being with MM was the best thing for you to be doing, I don't think you would be asking these questions.<P>I am sorry if anything I said offended you. This time, I was seriously trying not to be catty - this is just what I really see as the truth.<P>Write again if you'd like to discuss this further.<BR>-cd

P.S. in order for me to fully trust my h again, we had to go back to the bare bones of our commitment to each other. Back to the purity of our love for one another. We had to rely on the years of truly knowing each other inside and out that preceded the whole mess of the affair. That is really why I don't think you will ever be able to trust MM. You simply don't have the background to fall back on here. I'm saying this intending to point out what I feel is best for YOU, not for any other reason.<BR>-cd

cd,<BR>no, in that last post you didn't sound catty at all and it made a lot of sense. Honestly, I can't picture myself trusting ANY man to help raise my child. I think all men are cheaters...some get caught, and some don't. Whether they cheat physically or emotionally ao even if it's just cybering with someone on the internet that they never meet, I htink all men at some point in time think about someone OTHER than the person they are SUPPOSED to be thinking about. And I do truly appreciate the sincereity of your response. I think another mitigating factor in this whole situation is that we are all just YOUNG. He is 25 and I am 23.

anow,<BR>Funnily enough, you are about the same age as my h and the ow at the time of their affair, give or take a couple of months. So hearing your perspective is both interesting and informative to me.<P>anow, you have to remember that everybody is human, everybody makes mistakes. I feel that part of the reason that "our" ow doesn't just marry her boyfriend and have him adopt oc is because she, like you, just doesn't trust men in general. how sad for her daughter that she can't make the commitment that would end this mess for everybody involved. We would all be better off, not least the child herself, if she was able to be raised in a stable two parent home without involving us. at this point, however, that isn't happening, and we are compelled to act accordingly to do the "next best thing."<P>Everybody has had straying thoughts at one time or another. the only difference between a continuous cheater and a reformed cheater is that the reformed cheater has really seen the error of his/her ways. The only difference between a cheater and a non-cheater is that the non-cheater really believes that cheating is bad. When the affair first happened, I will admit that I considered having an affair myself to give back a little of what had been done to me. But what purpose would that have served? It would have just compounded the tragedy.<P>I sense that behind your first awkward attempts to find help here, you truly want to do right by yourself and your child. As hard as it may be, I think that the only way you can accomplish this is to cut ties with the MM and go on with your life without him. I really don't think that he can add to your life, nor to your child's life. I'm not saying you should elope with the next single guy that happens along, but I feel that by remaining involved with MM, you will be closing the door to future opportunities to make things right for all of you. I know that you want your child to have a father, but a father who's primary obligations are elsewhere is worse than no father at all. Regardless of MM's claim to want you now, he still has a previous commitment to his wife, and that will always be between you, and your child will sense this and be hurt by it. I don't think you want your child to grow up wondering if he is the thing that ruined his father's marriage. That is an awful lot of guilt to put on an innocent child. For you to heal and go on, you have to get yourself out from under his spell.<P>I'm not saying that MM will be better off with his wife. Maybe he won't. BUT you will be better off with out him. No question there.<BR>Write some more.<BR>-cd

anOW, no bashing…..just think about this. What you want or "need" is not always what is right. Doing the "right thing", even if it causes heartache, is a great testimony to your character. Don't you want a legacy of pride, integrity and plane ole decency for your child? Right now you're thinking about what YOU want because the baby has not become a reality. When that baby comes, he/she is going to become the most important part of your life. You're going to want the world for that baby. Start him/her off with some necessary basics i.e. truth, honor, and respect for himself/herself and others. I can't tell you how many times my mother has (still does) drilled into me "respect, courtesy, and manners!!" She's a grandma now, to 8 grandkids…and she's drilling it into them, too. Those are some fundamental basics that everyone should be treated with…including yourself. Respect yourself, and don't give others any reason to disrespect you. You need to know that you are worthy of an honest, loving, kind, and HONORABLE man, before such a man can make his way into your life. It's time to clean house and do this the right way…if not for yourself, then for that baby.

Dear anow,<BR>I have one more thing to add, and then I will shut up for a little while.<P>You and i talked in your last post about the fact that my h is now disgusted by the ow. I think that the reason a lot of wayward spouses are later disgusted by the people they fooled around with is because those people become symbols of failure to them. to my h, ow is the symbol of his biggest mistake in life, his weakest moments, his biggest failure as a husband and father. it's probably not that she is less attractive than me, or that she has less personal character (although both are true) She is a constant reminder that once he acted selfishly and seriously hurt the ones he loves (me and kids). I think that sooner or later, you will start to see MM this way, and he will start to see you this way. And what is now thought of as "love" by both of you will turn into hatred and disgust. People in relationships look at their significant others sometimes as "mirrors" that reflect what they think of themselves. What do you want your future husband to see when he looks at you - the love of his life, or his biggest mistake ever? What do you want to see when you look in your lover's eyes? Will you see respect for yourself or disdain for the actions that brought you together?<BR>Just something I think is worth thinking about.<BR>-cd

anow,<BR>I'm glad you got past the formalities and are really seeing the help you can get from this site. As far as all men being cheaters..I disagree. My W had an affair and after D-day, I thought about having an affair, but couldn't even fathom doing that to my kids although I felt my W deserved it. A good book you might want to read is "Surviving an Affair", which you can get through this website. Specifically it mentions the hurt that occurs when you prolong an affair, for you, MM, and his W. I don't know how long this A has been going on, but most (don't know the %) affairs die a natural death within 6 mos. to 2 yrs. I can tell you that my W decided not to stop all contact and that has just added a mountain of pain to myself and my two small children. Your heart may be telling you to stay in this relationship, but your heart isn't supposed to make decisions..that's what your brain is for. Weigh the decision in your mind and be honest, then act on your thoughts..not your feelings. Feelings change daily and who knows what you'll feel next week or next month. This decision will be very painful and you will go through withdrawal, because MM is an addiction right now. BUT, you can get through this and then when you have time to really think things through, I bet dollars to donuts you'll see that you made the right decision. If you really want help, keep posting and everyone will welcome you to our sad little group!<BR>Floored

we have been involved for almost 3 years. you know what, oddly enough, when I first met him, we worked together and I thought he was a nice guy and thought about dating him, didn't know he was married at that time. I hadn't even acted on my feelings then, and it came out it a conversation about a dress hanging on a rack that he was married. He said that his wife would look good in the dress. HONESTLY after he said that, I decided not to persue anything else with him, other than a working friendship. We worked together and we were friends and we would just TALK. I think that must have been what he was missing at home because for a guy, he sure talked A LOT. I rebuffed his advances a couple of times but when he said he wanted to take me to a movie and his W was actually ok with him taking me to the movies, I initially thought that she just must not even care. I think that's when the actually physical part of it started. In retrospect, I think now maybe it wasn't that she didn't care, maybe she just TRUSTED him. You are right though, I think he has become a sort of addiction because even though I don't think about him 24/7, I can't imagine him not being my friend or not being in my life somehow. I'm more or less scared to cut the ties because I am scared of losing my friend. I once asked him if W had asked him to promise her that he would never see me again and to never talk to me again, would he be able to do it. He told me that he would be able to SAY it, but he wouldn't be able to do it. Because he has legal right to this child, I really can't imagine him giving them up either because wrong as it may have been, it is still something we created together and is a part of both of us. For him, or any man, to turn his back on his own child would be just as wrong as having an affair. I know this site is all about preserving marriages, I understand that, but to me, when people suggest that the father (or MM) let go of the child and cut all ties with it because it came from someone other than his spouse seems to have an underlying selfserving purpose as well. I am not saying that to get attacked by anyone, that is just my honest opinion. I mean, wouldn't it be a disservice to a child to deny him or her the right to know who their biological father is because that family doesn't want to be involved?

Dear anOW,<BR>Here are my thoughts, for whatever they're worth (and I know that there are people here who disagree with me, so I am prepared to get busted for this viewpoint)<P>I do not agree with those who say that a man has an innate instinct to nurture his biological offspring. That is not to say that most men don't make great fathers, because obviously they do. however, I think that the emotional bond a father has with his child comes with the constant interaction with the child. For instance, with our children,my h made the choice to conceive with my because of our love for each other. my h was there for the entire pregnancy, watching our babies growing inside of me. he was there for the birth. To bring the baby home. To play with the boys daily, to watch them change, to watch them grow. The love and commitment he feels towards them is mostly, I feel, a learned behavior. We grow to love people after knowing them. For a woman, obviously, this bond starts with the minute the new life begins growing inside of her, because for so long the baby is actually PART of her, and she knows it from the beginning. For a man, it is a little later, or in some cases, not at all. In the case of the oc, for example, my h did not want to have a baby with ow. he did not consciously choose to create a child out of his love for her. He did not even know if it was his until much later. He did not watch this child being born, nor did he watch this child start to grow up. There was no contact, hence, there was little to no emotional bond formed. Aside from the biological ties, there is no real connection, at this point anyway, that makes him the "daddy" of this child. I think that the men who sneak around to see their oc do it not out of a need to nurture, but out of a sense of guilt. They are more concerned about their own guilty consciences than they are about a bond that doesn't automatically exist. now, if we do indeed start visitation with oc, I believe that my h will bond with her, and perhaps someday will feel more like her daddy. At this time he doesn't. She is no more a "real child" of his than any stranger's child. The ow's boyfriend, who has been raising oc up until now, has much more right to claim that he is the dad. In fact, he even has the oc calling him "daddy". However, he doesn't choose to do so financially. We feel that if my h is called upon to contribute to the child as a father financially, he should be recognized as the father in all ways. But if the boyfriend wants to be her daddy, then he should be responsible enough to adopt her and be done with it.<P>I think that this is all true, because if the bond was formed only through biological links, there would be no successful adoptions whatsoever. For the most part, love is a CHOICE for all of us. <P>I do, however, feel that every child has a right to his/her medical background. A year ago, while our agreement with ow not to have contact was still unbroken, she called my mom and told her she needed my h's medical history to give to the doctor's office. My h did not really want to call her back to give her the info, but I told him he had a responsibility to do so, and he did.<P>A biological father who gives up his rights in order that a child can have a stable two-parent environment is doing the right thing, in my eyes. A husband who chooses to raise a child that he knows is not his biologically is more of a daddy to that child than anyone else ever could be. The bond is formed by WILL and by the man's DESIRE for it to be there, not by DNA. I think that for my h to "turn his back" on his child would have been the best and most caring act he could ever do for that child. However, ow will not allow this to happen.<P>Anyway, that said, I can see why you would feel like our advice is self-serving. Of course, everybody here wants the marriages to work out. But really, even if the wife is the biggest meanest b**** in the world and even if she doesn't deserve to have this man - I think YOU and YOUR child deserve better. I could easily be saying all of this in order to just try to get you to back out and "save MM's marriage" but I'm not. It is true that the marriage deserves the chance to be resolved one way or another without your interference. but it is also true that you and your child deserve a man who has only your best interests at heart. MM clearly doesn't think about anyone's interests but his own. I think you know that.<P>I know that you say he is your friend. would a real friend put you in the position of having a child out-of-wedlock? A real friend would want what is best for you. A real father would want what is best for his child. This isn't it.<P>Anyway, I welcome your thoughts on this<BR>-cd

BTW, I'm guessing you are going to say, "But MM is CHOOSING to be this baby's daddy." The problem is - he cannot commit to that because he has already made a previous commitment elsewhere. A child has the right to expect total commitment from his father. MM can't give him that.<BR>cd

anOW,<BR>I agree with cd. The only diffrence in our case is my h wants no part of the oc. He never choose to have a child with the ow. This was her choice when she quit taking her birth control pills. The only emotional ties he has is to me and his dauther that was born out of love. Its very sad that you ow think that you can raise these kids and that everything will be alright. Think about how you would feel when you grew up knowing that you were a product of deceit,betrayel and lies. It makes me sick but that is the ow fault when she allowed herself to get pregnate and kept the oc. There is no way anybody is going to force there kid down my throat or my h. I dont buy the story of I have been hurt by other men so this is why I am this way. I have been hurt by bad choices I have made in men longer than you have been alive and I could never do this to anybody. flowerseed

CD,<P>You mirrored my thoughts exactly. I just couldn't figure out how to put them into words.<P>anOW,<P>Take CD's words to heart about a father not being a "Daddy" just because he is the biological father of that child! My H will be the "Daddy" of my baby because he has chosen to do so. Your MM sounds just like the jerk I was stupid enough to become involved with. It all started out as "friendship" and we would talk about everything. He would complain about his W and I would listen. Of course, I can see now that it was all an act, that would have continued had I not seen through it. There was a lot of emotional/mental blackmail towards the end, just to "keep me". Even to the point of coming over thinking I would never tell my H what had happened! For me, this guy played on my fears, and succeeded to a point. I can definately say that, like CD stated, there never was any real LOVE involved, even though I did, at one point, believe that I loved him. If that was the case, I wouldn't feel the way I do now about what happened, and about him in particular. And, vice versa, he wouldn't feel the way he does about me. He has, since, called me a slut, whore, b@#$%, and any other thing that he thought would hurt me. It doesn't even phase me, other than he is very immature and insecure to call another person that, or to ask my H to his face how it feels to sit next to a slut! Now, you tell me that all those times he would tell me that he loved me he actually meant it!! I have admitted to those who need to know what has happened, and have received forgivness for it. The one person that I haven't is his W, but that would just be twisting the knife deeper. So, my way of "asking her for forgivness" is to not even let OM know about this child, ever. Don't get me wrong, this child will know that her "DADDY" chose to be her daddy, and the actions that brought her into our family. But, that will be when she can understand what that means. <P>I have now been in the position of being a birth mother, a betrayed spouse, and the wayward spouse, so I feel that I have the experience to tell you what would be best for your child. Your child needs a FULL-TIME Daddy, not some man who comes a couple times a week for a few hours each time. I sincerely do not feel that this MM would be the best man for that job. Look at what he has done to his children and wife. A woman who he vowed to love, cherish, be faithful to, till death do they part. Yes, I have done the same to my H, and vice versa, but we are going back to those vows, and renewing them, and living by them. You can heal those wounds, but not with the extra person or child constantly being pushed into your lives. Look at what happened to Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar in Genesis, starting in chapter 16. But, on the other side of that, another man could raise your child as his own with no problem, look at Mary and Joseph. <P>I feel very strongly that you should cut all ties with MM, and get on with your life. You said before, that you can support this child w/out any help from MM. Get on with your life, and some day soon you will find the man who will love you and your child for who you are. He is probably sitting right beneath your nose, and you don't even know it.<P>I don't know if I helped any, but I just felt the need to put in my 2 cents worth.<P>Tigger

flowerseed,<BR>not to flame, but how can you say "she allowed herself to get pregnant"? Your husband is a grown man and he should have known better than to sleep with her unprotected just because she was on birthcontrol pills. There are so many things can can go wrong with bc pills. He should have still used a condom so that child is as much his fault as it is hers. In my case, we always used condoms, this one time it broke. There is no 100% method of BC except abstinence so anytime someone sleeps with anyone, they should know that it is POSSIBLE for the woman to get pregnant and should be willing to accept that should it happen.