anOW,<BR>Oh I agree he should have never been even with her. What I am saying is this is a choice she made when she allowed herself to get pregnate by someone she had no business being with. To be on her own raising a child is her fault she knew all about me and his dauther but that didnt matter. I just find it hard to believe that you cant protect yourself from getting pregnate in this day and age its nuts. Most of these kids are just pawns in a game these sick ow play. I am not saying thats what you did but in our case she did it on purpose thinking he would leave me for her. flowerseed

Hate to push this point again, but if a man should just "accept" it if a woman gets pregnant, why doesn't a woman just have to "accept" it if she gets pregnant? why do women have the option of choosing an abortion when the men don't? Women ALWAYS are GUARANTEED the right to choose parenthood. Men aren't guaranteed anything but that they'll get hit with child support. They have NO CHOICE. Seems to me that's a little unfair. don't you think?<BR>-cd

anOW,<BR>Also I got pregnate when I was 14 yrs old so I have been playing this game of life for some time now.I even at 14 knew what I was doing as far as the possiblity of getting preg. I believe I allowed myself to get pregnate. flowerseed

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anOW:<BR><B>For him, or any man, to turn his back on his own child would be just as wrong as having an affair. I know this site is all about preserving marriages, I understand that, but to me, when people suggest that the father (or MM) let go of the child and cut all ties with it because it came from someone other than his spouse seems to have an underlying selfserving purpose as well. I am not saying that to get attacked by anyone, that is just my honest opinion. I mean, wouldn't it be a disservice to a child to deny him or her the right to know who their biological father is because that family doesn't want to be involved? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess it all boils down to what came first, the chicken or the egg. <P>I believe my twenty year marriage and our history together takes precedence over any three weekend affair that produces a child. It is the OW's selfishness and the WS's selfishness that causes the OC to suffer, not the Betrayed Spouse who had nothing to do with, had nothing to say about or any decision making in determining of the outcome that impacts the BS forever. It is the heartless and "self serving" acts of the OP and WS that caused the destruction of a marriage and the OC to suffer.<P>"Self serving" is a word I take great exception to, anOW, and if you don't want the gloves ot come off again, I ask you refrain from calling any Betrayed Spouse here "Self-serving" because they believe their marriage and their right to it comes first and foremost over any iliicit and self serving affair...that word can only be used in conjuciton with the Other Person or the Wayward Spouse. If the child suffers it is the sole repsonsibility and the sole fault of the Other Person who has deliberately determined to keep a child she has no business keeping.<P>If the Other Woman has unprotected sex with a Married Man and leads him to believe she is "safe" and is setting him up to knock her up for the express purpose of either attempting to steal him from his wife or steal large shares of his income and harm his family, his wife and children suffer. His primary and only obligaiton is to his wife and children from that marriage. <P>It is a far, far bigger 'sin' for him to deny his family than to deny OC. It is the OW's fault if the OC is denied a father because she is capable of giving it a father through adoption.<P>The "magical" and "specialness" of creating a child together may sound all flowery and romantic to you, but in the world of single parents and surrogate mothers and women who go to sperm banks instead of stealing another woman's life by sleeping with heer husband, it is no more 'special' than rutting dogs producing a litter of mongrels.<P>OW's like you are the only ones doing any "disservice" to the child here, anOW.<P>I am completely enraged at your obtuse selfishness practically asking us to feel guilty about something we had absolutely no voice in and cow us into thinking we should sacrifice ourselves and our marriages so you can basically have what you want for your [censored] child. While I wish you no harm and hope you child will have everything it needs, reading your post sent me into orbit. I don't mean to be mean, and I am really not hostile to you, but your ideology makes me nuts. How can you see things so incredibly absurdly ...I can't even finsih this, I'm so upset. How dare any OW to chastise me or any of us here for being "selfish" about OC or expecting our husbands to make our marriages come first. <P>Catnip =^^=<P>

well, <BR>I don't personally think that abortion is right (except in extreme circumstances such as rape or incest) so I think when women get pregnant they need to accept it as well. But I see your point about the choices. And still, KNOWING that they have no say so in whether a woman aborts or keeps an unwanted...excuse me...unplanned child, is all the more reason to never have unprotected sex. But flowerseed, I do think the ow in your case was very wrong for intentionally getting pregnant. She should have known that if she had to trap him with a child something was wrong. My MM's wife hasn't come back and she hasn't called yet though. I know this sounds crazy but I'M actually starting to worry about her.

anow, <BR>I would like to respond to your post ..<BR>****not to flame, but how can you say "she allowed herself to get pregnant"?****<BR>I would like to tell you about the decisions my H made.<BR>1. He decided to have an affair.<BR>2. He decided to have unprotected sex.<BR>I hold him responsible each and every day for both of the decisions. Now let me tell you about the decisions she made.<BR>1. She decided to sleep with a married man.<BR>2. She decided to have unprotected sex.<BR>3. She decided to lie about being on the pill.( confirmed by a friend of hers)<BR>4. She decided to buy a fertility test to determine when she could get pregnant. ( also confirmed by a friend of hers )<BR>5. After the affair ended she decided not to tell my H she was pregnant. ( She knew what he would have said )<BR>6. She decided to keep this child and not put it up for adoption. ( Again she knew what he would have said )<BR>7. 18 months after OC was born she decided to have someone call me and tell me all about it.<P>Now I know my H played his part and like I said I hold him responsible . But who does it look like was doing all the decision making to you ?<BR>I agree with catnip. How dare you come here and try to make me feel guilty for protecting what is rightfully my children's. If oc has to do without , too damn bad !!! MOM MADE THAT DECISION ! However, it will never have to do without, mom hit the child support lottery.<P>Jtigger<BR>

nobody was trying to make you guys feel guilty about anything. Some OWs are just WRONG for purposely trying to have children with married men and I don't deny that. What I am saying is that life is full of choices. People CHOOSE to have affairs. Some people CHOOSE to get pregnant. others who don't plan the pregnancy CHOOSE to keep it. betrayed spouses CHOOSE to stay in their marriage after an affair is discovered. BUT THAT"S YOUR CHOICE. However, I do think that if you choose to stay, it's because you are choosing to accept and to deal with what happened. and if a child came out of the adultery, however it came about, and you choose to stay with the betrayer, then you choose to accept the oc because you CHOSE to stay.

No no no because you choose to stay with your h and protect the family by no means is a reason you would accept someone elses [censored] child. I dont agree with that at all maybe I misunderstood.In 18 years I hope you dont have to look at your child and wish you would have done something diffrent. What a messed up world we live in. flowerseed<BR>

this is just my opinion, but you are not accepting "someone else's [censored] child". It is your husband's [censored] child and if you accept your husband and his mistake, then you can accept his child as part of that mistakebecause like it or not, that child is a part of your husband. But guess what, I realize that that sounds as absurd to you as suggesting that I give my baby up for adoption because I don't know how to love it sound to me. How about we do the mature thing here and just agree to disagree. Truce?

anOW, i don't buy anything you are saying. i think you tried to come back in with the nicey attitude and have started a war again. i personally will not read your posts anymore or respond to them. and i hope others will do the same. you are not in a marriage, and are not contributing here to anything more than starting a war. which i believe is the reason you are actually here. i now know why we should have listened to K and ignored you.<P>happy_girl

happygirl,<BR>I am not trying to start a war. Am i not allowed to have my own opinions about things as well or should I just take it at face value that everything you guys say is the gospel truth. You said for me to ask you about stuff and when I do, and then say how I feel about things, because they aren't what YOU feel I should be feeling, I get accused of trying to start a war. That's why I said to just agree to disagree. If I agreed with everything said on this board then I be out right now trying to have an abortion because I'm having a "[censored] child" that doesn't need to be here in the first place and then I would not only be an adulterer but a murderer as well. I respect you right to have your opinions about things, so why can't you respect my right to have my opinions about them.

Anow, just for the record, I am against abortion. I mentioned it only because it IS a valid point in the argument that a man's right to choose is limited compared to a woman's.<P>ladies and gents of the forum,<BR>I am among the first to bite back with harsh words and sarcasm. I admit to having a short fuse when it comes to topics like this. But for whatever reason, in this case i do tend to believe that anow is here for help. I feel she is wrong in her opinions, and I will do everything possible to help her to see the truth. I am not criticizing ANYBODY for becoming enraged at the way she has said things, but i believe that it is her immaturity, her young age, and perhaps a huge lack of tact that is making her sound the way she does. Also, i think that anow probably has a lot of trouble putting her thoughts in to words, especially since she is in such a troubling position. Am I right, anow? i really do not think that what she is saying now is INTENDED to be vicious and/or inflammatory. perhaps I am wrong, but I get the feeling that anow is sincere in her quest to discover what is right here. If we can't respond without bashing her everytime we disagree with her, how is anow ever going to think that what we have to say is right, just, and reasonable? We will not be able to persuade her of ANY of our viewpoints if she sees us as hateful and vindictive. And from just being here, I think anow is indicating that she wants to hear what we have to say. I mean really, why would she come just to get beat up over and over. It couldn't possibly be THAT much fun baiting us.<P>I realize that me saying this may upset some of you. Again, I'm not trying to chastise anybody. But, like I have said before, kindness, kindness, kindness, may make the difference. I value the friendships I have here so very much. i hope that nobody will be angry with me that I'm taking this viewpoint, but I think we need to tone it down and speak reasonably. Save the claws for better game and try to focus on helping this young lady make some difficult choices. When the time comes, when the right ow comes in to get us riled up, you know that I will be right there in the thick of things. but, now is not the time.<P>Anow, I know that you don't agree with much of what I say, but I would like to keep talking with you. Write back if you'd like to talk some more. let me know.<BR>-cd

anOW,<BR>My h wants nothing to do with this girls child. The problem is when you say that it is the childs right to have there father you took away that choice for this baby when you go pregnate from someone that was married. My first reaction when we got served with the papers was to go to court and take away from the ow what belongs to me. My h wanted nothing to do with it. He made a very bad mistake that he is paying for every week you girls have the courts to help you in that. But you cant make somebody want something they never wanted. I know you think you can do this and I hope you can. I raised both kids from my 1st marriage by myself they never seen there father after we divorced his choice. My girl made it fine my son is not fine he is 21 yrs old now and still feeling the affects of no dad. I did everything I could to be both but it is not possible it screws kids up and thats all there is to it. That is the only reason in the beginning that I didnt just walk away and let another family get distroyed. I will not do that to another child. I hope the h and wife that you are involved with dont have any kids. I cant stand the thought of my little girl growing up and having to learn what a discusting thing her dad did. flowerseed

CD, <BR>We must of been posting at the same time. I feel also that this is the case at least I hope so. with love flowerseed

For the second time I have followed the posts of anOW and the replies of others. As some have said, anOW is entitled to her opinion as we all are.<P>If you look carefully at the posts though, I believe that anOW has considered everything that was said and has categorically rejected it. I doubt very much that anyone here will convince her of their point of view if it differs from her own. She seems to fully understand her situation, and have very strong views about herself, the MM and the child she is expecting.<P>I never thought of this site as a place where anyone would try to convince me of their point of view. I have always felt that it was a place where I could share my own feelings and find others with similar feelings for support and comfort.<P>If, in fact, there are not others here that have similar feelings to anOW then she is obviously at the wrong site because we cannot be a support group for a person who does not share our views on protecting the sanctity of marriage.<P>anOW, if you truly are looking for support in your situation, I personally believe that your interests would be better served on a site where other OWs with similar feelings can help you. <P>Since I do not relate to your feelings and situation, and I do not feel it is appropriate for me to try to change your views, I will have to join Happy_Girl in passing on your posts because I do not feel that I can give you the support you are looking for and deserve.<P>I wish you the best of luck with your situation and your child. Regardless of the circumstances, I hope you will focus on giving your baby the best you can possibly give -- all children deserve that.<P>- heavenly

Anow,<P>Perhaps this will clarify something for you. When a man who is married with children has an affair and produces a child, he and OW have just created an impossible situation. A man cannot be a full-time father to ALL his children. His first priority will be to the children he lives with. I agree with CD 100%. Men only bond with their children through the everyday routines of life. Morning rituals, watching Scooby, bedtime stories, late-night fevers, etc. are the things that connect a father to his children. 3 hour visits weekly are not enough and are in my opinion cruel. Let me ask you this, do you think that would be enough for your child? or does your child deserve someone to be part of his/her everyday? My fiance and I just got back together about a year ago and it was then that my son started to really bond with his father, before then his dad was nothing more than a playmate that came to visit him every other Sunday. IT ISN'T ENOUGH ANOW. Children thrive on stability and routine. Your child seeing his/her dad weekly will not be beneficial to your baby.<P>As a mom Anow your life doesn't belong to just you anymore. You mentioned before that you cannot imagine not having your "friend" in your life, what if that is what is best for your child? Would you be able to look past your "self-serving motives" and do what is best for your baby? In a couple of months you will be responsible for molding a life. Your child will look to you for all the answers. You will be creating memories without even knowing it. Don't you want your child's life to be about respect, integrity and honesty. Think this through very carefully for the sake of your baby. <p>[This message has been edited by Leelee (edited February 27, 2001).]

I hate to participate, but... ARGH! <P>OWen often get pregnant on purpose and/or keep the kid for BAAAAAAAAAD reasons with no thought whatsoever to how horribly destructive their actions are for their own child, the MM's wife and already existing children. So wives are supposed to have sympathy for the ex-mistress... WHY??? The XOW's choices have hurt my family emotionally and financially. I have a right to protect myself to the fullest extent possible. Her child is living exactly the life she wanted for it. It is NOT a life my H and I would chose for the child, but no one offered us any options!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would not only be an adulterer but a murderer as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thou shall not commit adultry.<P>Thou shall not kill.<P>So you've become moral all of a sudden?<P>I noticed you said in cases of incest or rape abortion would be ok.<P>By keeping this baby metaphorically you raped MM wife and children. Period.<P>Isn't it ironic? You are extremely selfish.<P>Talk to us in 10 or more years and let us know how well adjusted all of you are.<P>Remember my words. They will haunt you some day.

Anow,<BR>My husband has many blood-relatives who are corrupt and criminal. I do not accept them into my life just because they are related to my h. Those people would have a negative impact on my family. I have an uncle who is a child-molester (I know this for a fact because I was his first victim). I do not accept him in my life because he is obviously a danger to my children. These people are all related to us, and yet they pose a threat to my family's physical and mental well-being. My husband's nephews are juvenile delinquents who steal and lie. They would be a terrible influence on my young sons, so we do not allow them to have any contact with our children. My husband's brother has made passes at me, so we no longer communicate with him because he is a threat to our marriage. By marrying, my h and I made a commitment to EACH OTHER and to OUR children together. We did not commit to including any other people in our lives, regardless of the biological connection.<P>The child a man produces from an affair falls under the same category. If a wife feels that the child poses a threat, be it emotional or financially, to her marriage or to her children, the h and wife are justified in excluding that child from their lives as much as possible. The sole commitment a man has is to his wife and children. That commitment precedes any other blood ties. The h has absolutely no moral obligation to be the "daddy" of a child born out of wedlock. That is why we have the institute of marriage, to sanctify the bond between a man and his wife and their children. Period. Inclusion of any other relatives-be it uncle, cousin, illegitimate child, etc.- is optional.<P>Knowing this, it is not logical to say that because an illegitimate child is born that the wife chooses to accept it in her life if she chooses to stay in the marriage. The wife is simply choosing to maintain the contract that is already in place. The marriage is still comprised ONLY of the h, the w, and their children. The bible says that a woman is to cleave onto her husband, not onto her husband and anyone else that might be related to him. By choosing to keep the marriage intact, the wife chooses to keep the commitment to her h and to their children. That's it. That's where the obligation ends.<P>After that is established, it is up to the w and h to come to a joint agreement as to whether or not to have contact with the child. For the h to sneak and see the oc without the wife's consent and knowlege is just as sinful as I would be if I snuck out to see my flirtatious brother-in-law without telling my h. For a h to put the oc in the same category as the children of his marriage is a blasphemy of the institution of marriage. Now if a man CHOOSES to raise the child of his wife knowing that the child is not biologically his, the child automatically becomes his child because it will be a part the primal family. When a couple adopts a child, they are essentially bringing in under the protective umbrella of the marriage, therefore it becomes theirs. Unless there is full consent by the h and w to extend familial privileges to the oc, the oc is "outside" of the family's obligations. The child has no inherent rights to be included just because of blood ties.<P>Therefore, every h and wife must confer and decide on their own whether or not the oc shall be included, based on what they feel is right. Saying that the choices the h and w make together are selfish is absolutely right. By the laws of marriage, the only people they are SUPPOSED to think about is THEMSELVES. Just the people who are in the marriage. Anyone else is secondary. To prioritize the needs of anyone outside the marriage would be sinful.<P>I know that you are probably thinking, "Well, if that were true and a man was really thinking about the marriage, he wouldn't have cheated in the first place." Right you are. But one mistake does not nullify the agreement. Marriage is "for better or for worse" which means it sticks even if a mistake is made, or even if MANY mistakes are made, as long as both people agree that it shall not be dissolved.<P>Anyway, that is my explanation of why a wife who chooses to stay married does not choose to accept the oc. She chooses only to continue to honor the bond between her, h, and their children.<BR>-cd

cd:<P>This is the best and most thorough explanation I have seen on the subject...and extremely difficult to debate it to the contrary. Well said.<P>Catnip =^^=