I have asked my H to move. It is what has to be as he will not turn his back on C.<P>Ow is pregnant, my sister saw her at church. She shows well now.<P>Like someone else who posted I can't believe his desire to help C out and sacrifice us.<P>It is what he has to do.<P>I will be lost for a long time. I'm lonely already.<P>I feel numb all over again.<P>I know it is his now in my heart....I just know.<P>Anyway how could I stay if it's not? He is willing to give all of our lives up for c....just like ow gave up all her family to carry c. two of a kind I guess.<P><BR> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Gem,thank you for getting the <BR>courage to come here. I really think you need more opinions on this. What does your sister say about your h feelings about oc? Again I am so sorry. with love flowerseed

My sister said his first obligation is me.<P>That doesn't matter though as it's not how he sees it.<P>I was next door (sisters) and he popped in and left me a note to call with what kind of fish dinner I wanted him to bring home for dinner tonight. and it said .....love,H.<P>Maybe he thinks I've changed my mind.(I have so many times before).<P>Priest called me back and offered to talk tomorrow morning.<P>BTW priest agreed to use church as a visiting place for h to see baby only if I agreed! hmmmm.....<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Debi/gemini: I feel for you. Since he told me of the affair and child one month ago, .The OW actually think her child has the right to know my children as her child's siblings. I refuse and have decided to never change my mind on this..do you have children with your husband? Do they know about the OC?.Deep down,. I hope with time, and no contact, his connection to child will diminish and the OW will find another man to father child. Maybe that will happen, but it may be a pipe dream. I am here for you><p>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 27, 2001).]

gem, <BR>Iam sure he is seeing if you changed your mind. Mine did things like that every time I said it was over also. Did the ow h leave because of what happened or did she end it with her h. Your h might have all this misplaced guilt if he feels he is the reason there is no father to raise her kids and the possible oc. Could that be it? I agree totaly with your sister. What I meant was does she have any ideas as to why he feels he should put the oc over his family. with love flowerseed

gem, i'm sooooo sorry you two have come to this. as you know i'm on the other end of the spectrum with allowing the OC into our lives. But I respect your descision. <P><BR>I'm praying for you and your family that peace will come, especially for you and your son.<P>

Gem:<P>I am so sorry. I am at a loss for words. Please don't react to this with too much haste. I'd hate to see you do something you may regret later...<P>Catnip =^^=

We ate our dinners he brought home. Then he said"you weren't serious about D were you?"<P>I said yes. He said no problem just give me a little time to find a place. Then he took a shower, got dressed, and left........<P>You guys I just can't take it. I'm jealous and angry and bitter and I'm having images of them "parenting" this new little baby.<P>I want to be the most important person in my H's life and I am not.<P>All intimacy, and exclusivity is gone now and will never be back again. As much as I'm scared I feel I have no other choice......God help me.....<P>My sister just doesn't get it Flowerseed. He has such emotions about C. Like he feels sorry for it not being raised traditionally. So I guess he wants to be a strong presence in C's life regardless of anything else in his life.<P>I have been physically sick all day....like d-day all over.<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Gem:<P>I am stunned by your husband's response to you. I can't help but think he is bluffing after all his demonstrations of love to you. He seems so desperate to reconnect with you. Where did he go? This seems to be turning into a power struggle of wills or something. I am so sorry you are going through this, Gem.<P>Is the OW living alone now? Are her kids with her? Did her husband dump her or did she dump him?<P>God is watching over you, Gem. I know God hates divorce and blesses marriages. He doesn't want divorce for you and your husband. You should be first priority. And I will pray your husband comes to realize his only responsiblity is to you and your son. Would it help him to come to this site and post?<P>We're here...<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

oh gem, i am so sorry. i can totally understand your feelings of not being able to accept being with him if he is involved in OC's life. i too believe his first obligation is to you. and i am sad that your husband doesn't see that.<P>i do believe though in my heart that you are a strong person. i know that no matter what happens, that you will make it. you will be in my prayers. <P>happy_girl

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is the OW living alone now? Are her kids with her? Did her husband dump her or did she dump him?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ow lives w/3 kids and her mom,and maid and "nanny"(why she was free to meet anytime they did)<P>She threw her H out. He's in Florida.(shamed)<P>H said he won't fight me.<P>Not even our marriage would keep him from baby.<P>He already made plans to fill in his weekend.<P>He's adament on fathering C no matter what my feelings b/cuz he "just can't turn his back on baby"<P>Catnip, I prayed for God to show me the path I should walk. I'm miserable and can't stay with a man who would hurt me this way. It's like he's a stranger......<P> Debi<P><P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Oh gem, I am so sorry that you're h is acting this way. I don't know what to say, but I will pray that god comforts you during this horrible time.<BR>with love,<BR>cd

Dear Debi,<P>Like flowerseed, I am so glad that you brought this to the forum for comfort, support and maybe even some helpful advice. You know how I feel. I would love to see you and your H work this out but I fully support your decision because I understand how you feel.<P>I never really thought of men as having the same kind of parenting desires that we have as women. But my H assures me that some of them view their children exactly as we do. And, in fact, many of the men on this site have also reinforced that view by the care and love they show for their children.<P>Your H may be feeling as many different emotions right now as you are. He is most likely feeling guilty about what he has done to your marriage, he doesn't feel worthy of your love and that is why he would not stand in the way of your happiness and let you go. <P>He has also ruined the life of the OW and made promises to her that he never intended to keep. <P>He may feel that the OC is his last opportunity to do anything right in this situation. Remember, in a post some months ago, we talked about what H's thought they could offer OCs.<P>I still say, Debi, that this whole situation is too new for you and your H to make such drastic decisions like visitation. I agree with flowerseed. I think he is pushing because he believes that you will change your mind.<P>If he wanted to end the marriage, he would have been gone from the beginning. There is love there. There is a hell of a lot of confusion, but there is also love. My H says that seeing the OC was not half as important as being "able to see" the OC. All my H wanted was to make sure that the child was being brought up right - he did not want huge involvement, he did not want to be "daddy", not in the way he is to our two children. He simply wanted to do the responsible thing and make sure that a child he put on this earth was being treated well and would grow up to have a decent life. <P>He did not see this tremendous bond with the OW, nor did he see the OW in the child every time he looked at her -- I was the one that built up that fantasy. But my fantasy was so strong that there was no room for reality. <P>I hope that you will give it a little more time and thought. I pray that both you and your H will use your time apart to think about how important you are to each other. I cannot believe that your H will accept to lose his loving home and family. What good is having the OC when you have lost everything else in your life?<P>Look in his eyes, Gem, defenses down, and ask him if he really wants to break up his family? Ask him to tell you what is in his heart. Tell him what is in yours without anger. Let him understand that you have thought about this and you are describing the feelings about the situation that come from deep in your soul. See if there is room for compromise. Tell him about all of us and that we are doing fine with third parties as "go-betweens" and with OWs contacting wives only. <P>But most of all tell him that the only way that you could possibly survive this situation is if he makes it clear that you two are a team, an inseparable, unbreakable team. Otherwise, he will have only succeeded in destroying your life and your son's life as well. <P>You have shared so much together, Debi. That rich tapestry of your life is worth one more try. Talk to him again, let him see your pain not your anger. I am crying with you and praying for you.<P>love <BR>- heavenly

Gemini,<BR>I am so sorry for all this pain you are going through. I will pray for you and light a candle that God may give you strength and your H clarity.<P>You will be in my thoughts and prayers today.

Gem:<P>You've been on my mind all night. I was so glad to logon this morning and see Heavenly's response to you. She's absolutely right on all counts, Gem, and the one thing that comes to mind is that one important thread she started a few weeks ago about what do our husbands think they can offer OC's. Please, please find that thread and print it up and give it to your husband. It addresses the selfishness of men who add insult to injury to their already damaged and traumatized wives by abandoning them further (our perceptions) by OC involvement.<P>The one thing I don't get is the curiosity to 'see' OC. I guess I don't know what that is about. I gave up a son for adoption when I was 19. While I imagined him in my mind's eye, while I wish I could have seen him, there wasn't a driving force compelling me to blindly barreling forward to 'see' him if it hurt innocent people (the adoptive parents) or hurt or upset the people I loved (my parents). The need to 'see' was much more about me than it was about anyone else, but because of what I had done, I accepted the bitter pill and abandoned my wants and desires to 'see' him for the good of everyone, including my son, as a whole. I am not saying this to fish for empathy, sympathy or to make myself look like some kind of altruistic or sainted wayward, but to show the contrast between motives, selfishness, desires and accepting my lot, my 'just desserts' and my consequences for what I did. And I feel all WS's who have produced OC's and wish to restore their marriages to the BS's should all do this, without whining, complaining, pining, or sacrificing their spouses for the OC.<P>This whole thing infuriates me because to me, it is so suprememly self-serving.<P>Heavenly's thread from all those weeks ago was one of the most timely and outstanding threads ever on this site and I truly believe you should find it, print it, and give a copy to your husband and to your priest, who would benefit greatly from a Retrouvaille experience to understand what it takes to heal a marriage. None of this wishy-washy compromise stuff....until the BS feels "justly compensated" and the marriage has recovered enough to entertain the 'possibility' of OC involvement down the line. This priest should contact Retrouvaille immediately and study the Harley principles to gain a better understanding of how to guide an ambivalent WS through his decisions.<P>Gem, I will pray that someday soon your husband will feel as mine does and not have anything more than perhaps a spasm of mild curiosity occasionally, if at all. <P>To Gem's spouse and other WS's: Regarding the OC's...leave them to heaven.<P>I'm praying for you, Honey. Regardless of what happens next, you will emerge triumphant.<P>Love<P>Catnip =^^=

Catnip emphasized what I always say about the WS being selfish by wanting involvement in the OC's life. Women are so used to sacrifice -- we do it everyday for our spouses, for our children, to keep peace at home or at work. We are conditioned from the time we are born to always take care of others and put ourselves and our desires after everyone else is satisfied. <P>As you know, I too gave up a child for adoption when I was barely an adult and I agree with you that I did it out of concern for the child. Decision made, I accepted it and went on with my life. From time to time I wonder about that daughter but I know that she has led a good and happy life, albeit without me.<P>Our husbands generally get everything they want because they have us protecting their interests and watching out for them. So, I think what happens at a time like this is they get hit twice -- first, we are being "unreasonable" in their eyes for not giving them something they want after years of letting them have everything they want; and second, for the first time in some of their lives, we are not all over them trying to make them feel better about what they are going through. For the first time, we are hurting so badly that there is little room for sympathy for them.<P>These are totally new concepts to some of our spouses and I don't think they know how to deal with these new concepts at a time when they are experiencing their own inner turmoil. So, that makes them "get tough" and be what society says a man should be.<P>That is why, Gem, I think you and your H are at an impasse that neither of you knows how to break. You are reaching out to each other, but you are both so trapped in so many hurtful feelings that you are not actually touching each other.<P>These feelings are so deep, so complicated, and so firmly rooted in how you were brought up and what you believe is right for you. That is why it is so important to think things through thoroughly and to tap the inner strength that each of us has deep inside.<P>I am praying so hard for you Debi that I fear God will get sick of me. His infinite patience is definitely being tested.<P>love,<BR>- heavenly

gem, <BR>I also cant seem to get quit thinking about you guys. What about you two doing kinda a ? and answer thing to each other. Like your feelings as to what you feel this means h wanting oc involved in your marriage and have h put his feelings as to wanting oc involved in your marriage. Then do something on what you feel affects will be after oc is involved and what he feels affects of having oc involved. and then give them to each other to read. CD maybe you could help with this you are so good at wording things. I dont know if you would want to do this but I cant see were it would hurt. I would want more answers than I just cant bear not to be involved with oc. Maybe it would help him to see things all the way thru. To me there has to be reasons for feelings so you guys can try to work on figuring something out.I know your reasons but he doesnt seem to have any other than he cant not be involved. Just more of my always trying to fix things just a idea. with love flowerseed

Gem,<P>Flowerseed has a wonderful idea. I support it completely. Try to get down to the real feelings that you each of you have. The "need to see the OC" is a manifestation of something that your H is feeling inside.<P>I know that you have one child. Did your H want more children? Was there a problem that prevented you from having more? Was your H's upbringing less than ideal? Does he harbor bad feelings about his childhood that could make him terrified of the OC having a similar bad childhood?<P>There are so many things that could be motivating your H. I hate to see the love that is obviously in your marriage wasted because you both are having difficulty communicating your feelings to each other.<P>Please give it a try.<P>love<BR>- heavenly<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know that you have one child. Did your H want more children? Was there a problem that prevented you from having more? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes he always wanted more c. He let it be known from time to time throughout our marriage. All who knew us well knew that was an issue of regret for him including ow, who he once said how great it must be to have 3 kids and how Debi couldn't do it after one.<P>I have endometriosis. I am lucky to have Michael and had a horrible delivery with him.(8 lbs. 4 ozs.) It was lucky I conceived him. Now there are lots of other ways to have babies but in the 70's we didn't know about invitro, or hormones to take to get preg. We didn't have the $ to have me have my tubes cleared to try to conceive again. I just have what is considered to be the ultimate infertility disease. My sil has it. The've spent over 25 thousand on invitro and she only carried one child to full term (he's 2).<P>They tried again in the fall. She lost their 4th baby in 2nd month. I think they are done. I think that's another reason the family turned their backs on H. Like what a cruel trick of life, H having unplanned c...them paying in vain w/no results.<P>We will try to sort this out.<P>H said he wanted to before he left for work and I agreed.<P>Thanks for all your help.<P>I guess my sticking point will always be ow. No matter what he says about not ever loving her. She's patiently waiting for H to become a father and share THAT with him. The ultimate sacrifice. Birth for the one you love. ugh....<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

What Flowerseed is describing is what is done at a Retrouvaille weekend. Each spouse is given one question or thought to write about every hour for two days... a question to consider and write what they think and how they feel about it. Then after an hour, they exchange notebooks and read what the other has written twice, once with their head, once with their heart. Then discuss it together.<P>It brings a greater understanding of what the other is feeling and thinking and brings a closeness into your marriage like nothing you have ever seen before.<P>Before you and your husband throw in the towel, why not do a Retrouvaille weekend. It might make all the difference in the world.<P>Once last thing, an attorney friend of mine who is handling our tax issues (ugh) is also involved in creating a game for children and adults regarding life choices. In this game, people are given choices, then because of the choice you make, you follow of path of obvious consequences and events that will happen if you choose a particular path. It is a way for dysfunctional people and adolescents to have the advantage of a "crystal ball" type peek into the future if they choose one path over another. Your husband choosing this path is indeed going to cause him a devastation he has yet to consider in loosing you. But, he hasn't thought that far ahead yet. If he had a crystal ball and could look into that bleak future without you and your son every day enhancing his life in exchange for a 'mistake', an OC that never should have existed, then the consequences of his choices will surely haunt him for all the days of his life. I mean, how often would he have involvement with OC? Once a month, once a week, a couple times a week? How destructive to you, your son, himself and finally OC. Again, misguided sense of guilt and misguided sense of responsibility and obligation.<P>Catnip =^^=