H (age 39) started exchanging personal e-mails with a girl (just turned 19) who attends a nearby college. As far as I know, they've not spent time together. He says that he hasn't even seen in her in person. He had put an e-mail address on some website called AFF (friendfinder). He has struggled with viewing internet porn and the site apparently has photos. At any rate, she started e-mailing him via that site and then switched over to personal e-mails. He actually provided his work e-mail and enough information that she figured out where we live and all kinds of information about us. (We have four children, ages 5, 7, 13, and 16.) H and I were having problems with one another beforehand but no cheating as far as I know. (He was angry because I had hidden a credit card account and was allowing my mother to help me pay off the account. I used the card to pay for things for the kids that I didn't think he'd approve of. Not big things really, things like sports team photos, class photos, a pair of dress shoes, etc. Since I started being a stay-at-home mom, I just hated having to get permission and lectures about money. As of Oct. 2002, I came clean with him, faced the music, repented, and have not been deceitful about money in any way.) He told me that he felt somewhat entitled to his e-mail dalliance with the girl because I'd deceived him by keeping that credit card. (He makes a good living and my "debt" did not put us in a bind. The thing was that it was just wrong. I understand that I have to work to regain his trust in that area.) He has tried to meet the girl on several occasions but "fate" (God?) seems to have intervened. He was meeting with her for a sexual tryst, usually at her invitation. He states that he has not met her yet since she won't give him her cell phone number. He said she was probably just joking around. I did end up meeting her one night when she called our house. I asked to meet her and drove to do so immediately. She is a gifted athlete living far from home and not particularly loved by her jealous teammates. She's ranked nationally in the sport she plays for college. Her parents are in the middle of a very bitter divorce. She's the oldest of three children. (Her parents live in a state on the other side of the country.) She told me that while she and my H had not "done it" yet that she intended that they would at some point. She told me if it wasn't her then it would be someone else. She said that he'd told her that he was staying for the kids, etc. When I confronted him, he said that he hadn't done anything, that it wasn't really cheating. (Only because he hadn't been with her yet.) The girl's roomate was with her when I met her, and the roomate sympathized with me. She started forwarding the e-mails to me and was advising the girl to stop. The roomate said she felt the girl was doing this to break up our seemingly happy marriage, just in some way be destructive because of anger over her Dad leaving her mom for a younger woman, etc. It did seem weird to me that she seemed interested in my H. I can't imagine wanting a 39 year old man at age 18 or 19. My H is attractive but not some stud type. My H did have an interest in her saying that it would be nice to be with someone with a nice young tight body. (I'm 39 and have had four children, gained 80 pounds with my last child and I'm still overweight. H still want to have sex regularly and it is often wonderful... but I think he still wants her. She has sent him photos and he sent some to her. Hers make her look lots better than she looks in person. She writes to him about how I look like one of those pretty cheerleader types who always got their way in high school and then just got fat and happy and let herself go... She's very jock-like and I doubt my H would be attracted to that in person. If anything, I think he'd prefer a more feminine type. He has told me several times that he won't communicate with her again, but then she bombards him with erotic e-mail cards and so forth at his work e-mail address, which he says he can't block her from e-mailing. I keep forgiving him and trying to continue being loving. Then he slips, I find out. (Last time he had to work out of town, she had an erotic online conversation with him using a messaging online method, he thought couldn't be saved -- then she saved it and e-mailed me, having got my e-mail address from her roomate. Also, she herself has forwarded copies of what he's emailed her about me, negative things. He then tells that he's sorry he wrote such things and that he'd done it to keep her interested, and because she'd bait him into it with comments such as, "Don't you think your wife has let herself go?" "Don't you wish she'd lose weight?" His answers are one word such as "yes" or "no." Then she sends it to me. He kept telling me this month that he hadn't heard from her. Then yesterday, he was supposed to meet me for a parent-teacher conference for our 13-year-old son. He didn't show up (unlike him) and then I checked my voice mail and he left a cryptic message saying he had a last-minute meeting across town. When I got finished with the conference, I called his cell phone and suggested that since I had a sitter for the little one that I could meet him where he was. He nervously said okay. I got caught in traffic and before confirming where to meet, I had to hang up. Then I got another call about something I needed to get so I drove to that place and thought to call him back (he'd sounded like he didn't really want to meet me anyway). When I started to pull into the bookstore, his vehicle was there by this restaurant (next to the college). He saw me and drove over to me. I said there was no way he'd driven there so fast. He said he was there to meet the girl but she hadn't shown yet. (He blew off the teacher meeting to see the girl!) He said he thought it would be his last chance to meet her since she was flying home for the summer. He said he just wanted to see this person who'd caused so much havoc in his marriage, who might be costing him his marriage. I said fine and I left. He got home shortly saying she didn't show up. Then she called his cell phone etc., looking for him. I think she's serious about wanting to get with him. I'm not sure he knows what he wants. And even though he hasn't "technically" cheated in his opinion and yet "paid the price" of losing my trust and causing pain, he has continued to dabble. She runs with her team near our house when I'm riding back from the elementary school with my younger son. She's like a presence even though supposedly he hasn't met her. I don't know if he will go through with it or not. She'll be back in a few months for her sophmore year. What should I do? Isn't this really cheating even though it hasn't been physical? Can I get him to end it or does he just need to do it? He won't do marriage counseling, says I should go without him if I need it. Also, H keeps saying he would never divorce me or abandon the kids. Hasn't he kind of abandoned us with this behavior? Also, he continues to say he feels that my "betrayal" of hiding the credit card is equal to what he's doing. While I feel what I did was wrong, I don't see it as nearly as injurous to our marriage. Am I in self-denial on that idea? (Maybe some men can enlighten me on that.) Thank you for any suggestions.

Jessme,

I am sorry for the situation you find yourself in. This is a good website for support and information. It has helped my husband and I save our marriage after his affairs. He had affairs with 10 women he met on the internet.. much as your husband is. Some stayed purely cyber/phone (sexual) and one went in-person-physical. He also started meeting some of them for lunch/dinner dates when he traveled for his job.

Your husband is involved in an affair. At the very least it is emotional. There is a high possibility that there is some cyber/phone sex involved as that is a normal step in this type of situation.

One say to find out what is going on is to install a keystroke monitor on the computer. The one I use runs in stealth mode so that he could not tell it is there. (www.iopus.com) If you do this, brace yourself for what you might find.

As for can your marriage be saved? Yes.. but it’s up to you and your husband. They things you do now could make the difference. My advice is that you read the Marriage Builder (MB) books, starting with “Surviving an Affair”. Later you can read ‘His Needs, Her Needs’ and ‘Love Busters’. Pay special attention to Plans A and Plan B.

There are two links in my signature block that are helpful… Welcome to All New Builders and Plan A, Doormats and Love Busters.

I also put links to this thread of yours from the Emotional Needs and the General Questions II forums as few people ever stop by the Other Topics Forum.

Hi, Jessme,

Welcome to MB. I caught this thread because someone (Zorweb) pointed it out on another board... Click here for Emotional Needs Board

Here at MB, we would say your H is having an EA (Emotional Affair). That means that this girl is meeting some emotional need your H has.

Normally, the prescription for YOU would be to Plan A, which means to meet all the needs you can of his (focusing on the top 5 of the 10 needs Dr. Harley says we have) and eliminate LB's (Love Busters), things that you do that serve to demand your way "or the highway."

Dr. Harley has several books out that you may be interested in checking out of the library or buying: "His Needs, Her Needs" "Love Busters" and "Surviving an Affair." Also, this site, being one of the best sites on the web, has online articles and questionnaires that may help you out. I'll link you to the Concepts Page so you can navigate all those helpful things from there. This will give you a solid overview of the concepts and help you to formulate your Plan A.

One more piece of advice about using this site: Don't post here unless your thread is completely off the topic of marriage (like mine about being an American <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). This board doesn't get many hits, so you will get very few replies, which translates into very little help. I don't want that to happen to you. So follow the first link to the Emotional Needs board and post there. You might even have a moderator move it. Let me know and I'll help you with that, if you want/need it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Next, what your H is doing is despicable. While money and trust issues can leave a person vulnerable to fantasies and such like, this is certainly over-the-top behavior. He's even doing it with your knowledge.

I'm not a computer expert, but it seems to me that any provider can block emails. Also, even if she does email him, he doesn't have to respond.

Dr. Harley says, though, that OP's (Other Persons) are addictive. Read the concepts and you'll find out why. It sounds as if your H is already addicted. He is being pursued by this woman. But, he's not completely involved yet. Don't let that happen, if you can help it. Find out his top five EN's and meet them the best you can. (I'll bet one is AS (Attractive Spouse).) Identify your LB's and eliminate them, as best you can.

This may be overwhelming for you, but you can make it. Many others have. That's one reason this message board is here, to help you understand the concepts and take the steps to reach your goal of getting OW (Other Woman) out of your life, and create a loving, happy, fulfilling marriage. You CAN do it, Jess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

(((Hugs))),

Petals

<small>[ April 27, 2003, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

Jess,
There are many wise people here on MB and you will find help. Your husband sounds like me, four years ago. Same age--exactly....as I was then. I blame it partially on mid-life thing, but that's not to excuse my behavior.

I met a man on the internet, got involved--first by email, IM, and then moved on to phone and then finally in person. It all cost me my marriage. Since knowing of the A, my now exH hasn't wanted anything to really do with me. I'm still praying that he will someday forgive me, and see what we've lost.

As Petals wisely told you,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dr. Harley says, though, that OP's (Other Persons) are addictive. Read the concepts and you'll find out why. It sounds as if your H is already addicted. He is being pursued by this woman. But, he's not completely involved yet. Don't let that happen, if you can help it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is so true. Jess, people who know me in my life never would believe that I got involved in this way with a man. Your husband is feeling a pull towards this, perhaps, such as I did. It was a pull that I can't even begin to describe. I knew it was wrong, but I kept going in that direction. It sounds like your husband is on the fence, and doesn't know quite what to do. Please follow the principles here at MB, and work hard at saving your marriage. This is an emotional affair, if not more at this point. (as someone said..cyber, phone sex) View him as an addict of sorts, an addict perhaps to the excitement of the whole thing and attention--and work with him to save your marriage.

I always post on GQII, but Zorweb referred us over there to your thread.

Take care,
let us know how it's going. Sorry it's going this way in your marriage.

H_P

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Jess,
Welcome to MB you have come to a great place for help. I don't post much but I can tell you my marriage has been through about the same thing yours has and we are recovering everyday. I deceived my H where the finances were concerned. I didn't have a secret credit card but I did "juggle" the bills to a point where I got us in a lot of financial trouble.

However, nothing you have done is an excuse for your H actions. He is at the least having an Emotional Affair. IMHO anytime we allow another to meet needs our spouses should be meeting is an A.

Read everything you can here. The books Lovebusters and Surviving and Affair will help you alot. Surviving and Affair not only helped me deal with his affair but gave me a little better understanding of him dealing with my betrayal as well.

Would your H consider counseling. If so call the Harley's immdeiately.

I would not talk to OW again. It'll only hurt you. My H OW was alot like your except she tried to be my friend to my face and then told him I was a lying manipulator who was trying to ruin him.

If it were me while she is gone I would implement a sound plan A. Work on filling his needs without LBing,)(do you know what his top 5 needs are? would he consider the questionaires here?) also use this time to work on yourself. I too had gained a significant amount of weight and it was a huge turnoff to my H. I have lost almost 50 lbs and I feel so much better about myself and it's easier to meet his needs when I feel better about me.

I know this is alot to take in. Come back for more questions. There is good advice here and I am living proof that you can get past this. 6 months ago I thought I was on my way to divorce, we are now happier than we have EVER been. We learned how to have a real marriage and are working on it everyday.

le

Thank you to all who have responded. I'm not exactly literate on how to post, so I also appreciate the suggestions about how and where to post in order to get help. Today is Sunday and my H and I do attend church regularly. Interestingly enough, the topic was "Private Dirt" such as like what I feel is going on with the two of us. H went for a private prayer with an elder, and I've been wanting to ask if he discussed what's going on with us. Things have been busy with church, lunch, and the kids, so we haven't been alone yet. H and I were awake all night talking/aruging, we only took a break when our older son came in at about 3 a.m. complaining he thought he was having an asthma attack. (Their rooms are on the other side of the house so I don't think he overheard us or was awakened by our "discussion.") Finally we fell asleep around 5 a.m. I will definitely try to discover and meet the emotional needs (EN?) for him. Last night we started aruging because I didn't want to be intimate, I told him unless he could tell me that I was the one and only woman for him and that he could promise me that he would stop this thing with the girl...that I wouldn't be with him sexually. (I've never refused to provide sex before, ever. This got his attention.) However, I do know that physical affection is extremely important to him and I did end up giving in to satisfy him. (We did the Five Love Languages mini course at church one time and PA, physical affection, score was the highest on his list. The second was acts of service or something like that. It's been years ago since we took the course.) I can't imagine what emotional need that the girl fulfills other than making him feel younger and more attractive, appreciated. I think initially he was more flattered than anything else. I on the other hand was freaked out that she actually came waking by our house, on Christmas Day, no less. I read this when her roomate forwarded their e-mail correspondence of the last few months. The girl also talked about watching him clean our roof while he was shirtless, telling him he had a nice body, etc. -- But I tell him that a lot! I guess I'll figure it out. Thank You.

Jess,
I would assume by now that you have read the concepts and have a better understanding of what MB is about. This is a great place to learn how to be a better spouse, if everyone had to go through MB101 there probably wouldn't be as many of us here. We go to college to earn a degree but we all go into marriage illerate.

Ok a few things struck me from your last post. I don't mean to be hurtful so please don't take anything I say as an attack on you just some outside advice from someone who has BTDT.

I can't imagine what emotional need that the girl fulfills other than making him feel younger and more attractive, appreciated.

You just hit the nail on the head, this is exactly what she is doing and promising sex with a cute little tight bodied jock to boot. This would be where I would start. I know you said you tell him how attractive he is but have you shown him. Really let him know you appreciate him by actions not words.

The things you mentioned are what OW did for my H, made him feel needed, wanted. Remember they have no baggage as I call it, it's what makes them so attractive. It's not all physcial, to me it a stress free, committment free, very safe place. A person that wants nothing other than them and is promising them the moon. When most A die in my opinion is when they incure baggage, when OW starts wanting things, nagging etc.

If you feel SF is a huge need for your spouse I would not withhold it (and I will get flamed I am sure for that statement). I would also (and I did) expand this area of your relationship as well. I did things (not bad, just different, like planning candlelight meals, a picnic etc) that improved our relationship intimately as well as emotionally. My H even told OW I was like someone he didn't know. You have to make yourself more attractive than the OW, but you need to do this for you.

Buy LB and Surviving an Affair, if you can't find them at a book store you can order them from this site.

I hope this helps. Remember all the advice here is free and you should take it with the full understanding that no one here is a professional and consult a MC if at all possible.

Hope this helps.
Le

You should tell him that if he wants to see the person who may be costing him his marriage, he should look in the MIRROR!

He needs to grow up! I think it's absolutely disgusting that he's chasing a teen-ager. He has some maturity issues and I would see if he would seek counseling.

As for you losing weight, etc...does he still have all the hair he had when he was 19? No paunch? No double chin? Doesn't need glasses? Bet he DOESN'T have stretch marks and sagging boobs from bearing his kids or worry lines from walking the floor when they were sick.

He is a selfish, narcissistic (sp?)jerk. His rationalization about 'deserving' an email affair is a bunch of crap. And this girl is looking for a father. It's pretty damn sick, if you ask me.

I really don't believe in ultimatums but I would tell him that this has to stop NOW and if he ever does it again with anyone--especially someone barely past childhood--I would be seeking legal advice about a divorce. He really needs counseling.

Personally i thought all of the information on this thread was great until the last message. Excuse me!! I love my wife dearly, and i must admit her wearing sweats and a t-shirt are nice once in awhile but not 7 days a week. But please explain to me why it takes an A or a divorce before a woman will lose 50 lbs, get her hair done, wear make-up, get new clothes and be attractive. Its called the divorced woman syndrome and you all have seen women that do it. I have to admit coming home to a woman wearing sweats or getting into bed when she is always frumpy loses its appeal after awhile. Not that men are saints, by no means. I know full well we have our problems.
Jessme, i feel for you. AFF is a serious site devoted to sex, that is what it is. I have been on the site and chatted with people in the chat room. there are a lot of people that play games. If your husband is looking into it he is probably serious. I have been there. I can tell you i have philosophised a lot about it. Is it wrong because my sexual needs are not being met?, my wife told me too?, it is just sex?, etc. Here is where it is tricky. The idea of an emotional affair has been brought up. maybe it is not. This could be, pardon me.... get down and dirty sex. A physical need.. wanting someone with a tight body and into kinky or weird things. Log onto aff and check out her sexual profile, does she do things you are not willing to do? Aff gets graphic in its sexual profiles.
Jessme, i will tell you this. I work on my relationship a lot and i love my wife more than anyone. I do whatever i can to make her happy. I have thought a lot about telling my wife about aff or my chatting or flirting, and i do to some extent. But i want her to know mostly because i do not want to hurt her, i want to discuss the challenges and work thru them. Maybe he wants to also.
I can see only 3 reasons for him to tell you about what is going on and keeping you in the loop. 1) he is cold hearted and wants to hurt you. 2) He is kinkier than you think and maybe wants you to join him. threesome or something. 3) He wants you to know because it is very enticing and he needs your help to meet his needs and pull him away.
I have trouble talking to my wife about this because sex can be taboo for her, but i can tell you. Find out his needs and meet them, whether emotional or very likely physical. Read his aff profile and see what his sexual preferences or interests are. You might be surprised. I remember the saucer like eyes of my wife when i mentioned some weird things i like or am interested in. And try and work thru it.
Please let me know how it goes. We are two sides to the same coin. would love to keep in touch so i can get some insight in how to deal with my situation. *hugs*

Relay

I agree with much of your post, it’s true… that this affair is more than likely more physical that Jessme has been told (and believes), that she needs to find out which of her husbands needs are not being met, and that she will need to make changes in herself.

But the basic premise of your post is that her husband is cheating because she, like your wife, has let herself go and she is not as wild sexually as he’d like. Even in cases where neither of those are true, husbands will stray. I know from personal experience and from observation. Have you ever seen the MB photo thread? You’ll find that most of the women here are young and very good-looking.

An interesting statistics is that women cheat in marriage as often as men do… gives one pause for thought.

As for your problem, have you read the MB books? I think they will help you quite a bit. One of the basic MB rules is radical honesty. One of the things that radical honesty means is that we have to be radically honest with our spouse about the things that are making us unhappy, the love busters. If you are not radically honest about the way your feel about your wife’s way of dress, her weight and her lack of interest in sex, then you have not room to complain. She cannot fix what she does not know is a problem.

Yes it’s uncomfortable bringing such things up. And it’s important to bring them up in a non-love busting way. For example one of the reasons your wife dresses as she does is that her self-esteem is down the tube. What have you done lately to help her get it back? Have you pampered her? How often do you take her out on dates? Just some thoughts about things you might want to change to make her happier. (It takes two you know.)

Perhaps you could treat her to a day a day spa where they will concentrate on her physical self.. maybe even get her a make over. Another idea is for you to tell her that you want to see her dress better and let her know it’s ok for her to go out and spend a few hundred and a new wardrobe.

Another thing is to discuss her weight with her, very kindly. I can guarantee she hates it more than you do. And then go with her to a doctor’s appointment to get her some help. Help her with meal preparation and so forth so that she sticks to a diet plan. There are also places like Jenny Craig that you could help her look into. But in the end, her weight is her responsibility. She will start taking care of it she is ready. I know it’s hard for you to deal with, but the more loving you are to her, the sooner it sill happen.

As hard as it is, as much as she may be hard headed about listening to you, you really owe it to your marriage to tell her over and over what you need from her. Think of it as character building. I’ve learned to do this over time and have come to realize that it’s easier to tell than to suffer quietly over the long haul.

Jessme,

I like Relay’s idea of you signing on to the web site your husband uses. One thing I did with my H that helped me find out what was going on is that I made up a screen name and started chatting with him. I do not like what I found out, but at least it started to open the door to the truth.

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: Eleonora ]</small>

Zorweb, Thank you for the posts i appreciate the input. Unfortunetelly, i have done all that and more. I have given her money for a new wardrobe,which she did not get, I have told her to go get friends(she has none) and encouraged her to work on her weight. I have been upset,mad, honest, nice, uplifting, supporting, and whenever she calls me on my cell (2 to 3 times a day) i always answer with "hello gorgeous". Nothing works for the weight or appearance. She was raised a tomboy and that is what she has gone back to. Radical honesty...done that. I told her to Wax her upper lip, eyebrows, bikini line, get her hair done, get new clothes etc... But she only did it because she finally saw me really lose interest sexually, and thinks i have OW. Also when i first had an offer from a woman. I sat my wife down and told her that she is not meeting my needs and that i have a woman willing to meet for just sex. Well, The conversation went well, but the changes did not really go into affect. (i did not see the ow) I don't know...... is it just me or does it seem like sometimes our spouses just do not care? I do realize that a lot of these changes she needs to do for herself. Self-esteem is what i need to help her with. Any other ideas.
BTW, outside of my sexual frustration our marriage is great. We talk a lot, have dates, work together at my office, giggle and wrestle, have the same interests, and take care of each other. After 10 years i have not found many people doing as well.
Jessme. this is off topic for you, but maybe seeing me go thru this on my end will give you some insight into your husband. The situations are probably different but there may be something here for you.

P.S. to the previous post. With my wife it is not just appearance. Her idea of mixing it up, i kid you not "Well honey if you want to do something else, we could have sex on the couch". She seriously said that. lol Basically if it is not slow easy, and missionary or doggy then she does not want to do it. She has told me when i mention something weird..."If you want to do that then go somewhere else". So outside of appearance, my sexual appetites and tastes vastly outstrip hers.

Jessme,

Here is something that might help you.. I know that it's helpe many other MB'ers.

Carol's post of the 180

Relay, I'm sorry to hear that you've done so much and not gotten what you need. Unfortunately there are many people who just do not get it.. they do not get that when they married they were making a promise to meet heir spouse's needs. You too may get some help from the link above. It talks a lot about some of the material from Divorce Busting. I find that it works very well with the MB material.

Hope this helps.

Thank you all who have posted suggestions and advice. H has read through the postings and says he has to admit that he "looks bad." He did download and print out two copies of the EN questionaire. This afternoon, I completed one and he did one as well. We then fumbled through a makeshift process of discussing our answers. I started to realize that I was sabotaging the process with my anger. (The girl that has been having the EA or OA -- Online Affair -- with my H sent me an e-mail again -- that's how I "discovered" the whole thing, was from her, not him -- in this e-mail she indicated that he'd offered to fly her to stay overnight with him this past Tuesday while he was away on a business trip for a one-nighter... the e-mail message contained the address and phone number of the hotel, plus his room number -- no way she could have gotten that info without him sharing it -- I asked him about it and he says she didn't actual come to his hotel room, she was just lying to me, according to him, but admitted that he'd invited her and then changed his mind, he says he feels that he's already paying the price for infidelity that he might as well go ahead and do it...) I know the Plan A indicates not displaying anger with rudeness in the way I did. However, we did get through it. His top five EN are
1. Sexual Fulfillment (he indicated that I meet this need of his with a 2, 3 being the highest), 2. An Attractive Spouse (he rated me a -1 for being overweight, 5'3" and 168 pounds now, and not dressing sexy enough, said my hairstyle - I have very nice long blond hair, waist-length and I do wear makeup -- he agreed that my face is still beautiful...whatever)
3. Honesty and Openness (he rated his satisfaciton with me on this one as a -1, for what reason, I'm not sure, other than the money issue, an issue about which I came clean with him six months ago...)
4. Domestic Support (he rated me a -1 on this one, saying that the house isn't as tidy as it should be and that I blame our four children, ages 5 to 15, for the reason why it isn't perfect -- this house is almost 4000 sq. feet. yes, a blessing, but still a lot, especially when your doing kids activities, school volunteer work, driving them as necessary, etc. He should be happy he has clean clothes and his bed is made, in my opinion...I guess I'm even expressing my anger here (but that's okay in this forum, right?) It is funny that I've had several neighbors tell me how nice our house is kept, and how great it is that we have a system of our kids doing their chores, etc., how nice-mannered our kids are, etc. -- I guess H thinks our kids are that way by magic...
5. Family Commitment (He rated me a 3 on this, I guess because he knows that my whole life is trying to be a good wife and mother.)

My top five were the opposite of his and my satisfaction level was much lower than his. I joked that I had more reasons to seek getting my needs filled outside our marriage than he did. (He didn't like that idea and whenever I suggest me doing so, he gets very defensive. What's good for the goose is apparently not good for the gander, in H's opinion.) Mine were 1. Admiration 2. Financial Support 3. Family Commitment 4. Conversation. 5. Honesty and Openness.

I guess we have the family committment thing going for us. I asked if if I do meet his SF needs then why did he start wanting a hard-body young thing. (I wasn't that when we got married 9 years ago, I was already 30 with two young children, whom he adopted a year after we were married. If he'd wanted a 19-year-old girl, then why didn't he marry one then?) I suggested that it might be that he has been viewing internet pornography too much (I wish he'd not view it at all but used to take the position of, "well he's a grown man and I'm not his mother," and he says he rarely views it anymore...I did notice that he went to some thing called bangbus on Sat. and when I asked him about it, he first denied it, it was in the cache, and I said did he think our 13-year-old son went to that site, he then admitted that it had been him when I said I was going to talk to our older son (OS, would that be the way to reference him). He said the porn helps him to de-stress. I said I think it has been instrumental in creating (or aiding) this problem between us. His ideal woman is now not even real. He admits that he doesn't enjoy talking to our daughter's friends, ages 14 to 18 generally, and I'm glad that he hasn't done anything to seem inappropriate to them (I straight out asked our daughter, who turns 16 soon -- she said, "Dad isn't like that. He's not a perv." I think she would be honest with me, based on her life experience.) H says that he wouldn't think of coming on to these girls, their just kids. I think because the online girl is 19 and he doesn't know her family, etc., he can rationalize it somehow. Funny to me that the online girl is so not-attactive in person to me. I can why most guys her age wouldn't be attracted to her. Also, the girl told my H that she thinks he looks like her old coach back home, a MM to whom she gave her virginity (or had it stolen via stat. rape, in my opinion). Maybe it is starting to add up to a bad scene with her and my H has started to realize it is not a string-free PA like he might have wanted. I still don't believe that he's slept with her (this may be a denial thing, I'm not sure... I'm normally the type who'd err on the side that it actually has occurred... somehow I don't think they've done the deed, just talked about it online a lot, "cyber" is that what it is called?) I had someone today tell me that H doesn't think of me as a full partner in marriage from their observation. It is someone I have greatly respected and think a lot of. She indicated that H is too critical in how he speaks to me and the older two children and that he is too controlling, especially about money. I had told her about my deceitful behavior of the past with the credit card and "letting" my mom pay for things for my children, especially the older two. Extras like sports fees and equipment, a new dress or shoes, etc. Things I didn't want to ask H for because it wasn't worth the argument and him saying there wasn't money, and saying how he didn't get such and such when he was a kids, and how my mom has too much influence on them, etc. (She's ill, pretty much bed-ridden since a car accident, lives about 6 miles from us, and asks very little to nothing of us most of the time. She does like to have one child at a time come for a visit when she feels well enough and the kids call her once a day to make sure she's okay -- 5-minute phone call, "Hi Grandma, we love you, kind of call. She lives alone and I'm her only child. She divorced when I was 2 years old and never remarried, but found a way to put herself through college and law school while I was growing up. She was only 17 when I was born. She's now 56.)
The someone who I was talking to indicated that he was been unreasonable, which surprised me since she's very much into wives submitting to their husbands, etc., in order to have a good marriage. In fact I was talking to her to like confess or something, to make myself accountable to someone, to have someone to discuss my poor behavior with, etc. She agreed that it wasn't right but said that she knew what led to my behavior (like she was rationlizing it for me, weird). She'd seen that H was so controlling about my time, even for church-related service, and about family finances, etc., and overly stern, harsh with me, and thus conflict-avoidance was the original problem. She suggested that I work on that with him and that my "so-called (her words) deceitful behavior" would not be a problem. I have worked hard to confront my H on things I want for the kids. It is soooooo hard. He gets so mad and says I can't stick to a budget and that I'm irresponsible in my request...how can I even think of letting OD do all-star cheerleading at $2700 a year... how ridiculous of me to even ask... (she used her babysitting money to try-out, maybe just actually "making it" will be enough to help her self-esteem since not making the high school team after the car accident, same one my mother was injured in injured daughter... to me high school is such a tough time that I want our daughter to have an activity or sport to invest herself into -- he disagrees, and he won't let her grandmother pay for it, even though doing so would not be a problem for her (he says our family needs to live within our means and that he makes enough money to meet our true needs, cheerleading or lacrosse etc. are not "needs" they are "wants" -- My problem is that if my mom can and wants to pay for these "extras" that I don't understand why he won't "let" her. He takes that to mean that I think he doesn't make enough money. I honestly don't feel that way. If I did, I'd have gone back to work myself. It is apparently affrontive to his sense of being a man although he admits that I do lots of things and say lots of things that encourage him as head of our household and uplift him to our children, encouraging them to love and respect him (which they all do). As for the SF thing, he says he still finds me attactive and the only difference on our EN questionaire was that my 1 time per day is less than his 1 to 2 times a day, which it sometimes is, anyway. As for the "wild" factor that someone here mentioned. He thinks that's really not an issue either. (no threesome or animals, etc., but he doesn't want to go there anyway -- thankfully... well the threesome thing he probably wouldn't turn down if given the opportunity but I can guarantee him I'm not doing that -- for that same poster, it wasn't him who told me, it was the girl, and I don't think he wanted me to know anything, and tried, even as late as this past week, to continue hiding his thing with her. I'm thinking today about just saying fine, go for it H. "I'll change the locks and you figure out how you can live on the nothing the judge will give you in a divorce. I hope little miss soccer chick can provide you with a very soft landing. Ciao." But I know that I don't really mean that. I love him and want to work this out. I know he won't pay for an online counseling session with Dr. H. because of the money. He once said to me in a mean way that I should go for therapy and just put it on the credit card. Our insurance allows EAP three sessions per every 12 months but we used up our time for sessions for the kids. I'm feeling now like he's going to have to get his act together now, not just pretend to get it together. I did like the radical honesty suggestions and I'm going to work on that, especially the one that indicated that we shouldn't bring up what's been said before just to rub salt in the wound. That makes sense. A lot of what is offered her makes sense. Thank You, Jess