heavenly,<P>I was reading your posts to Zebrababy and thought I would share a bit of how I felt before and during our first round of visitation with the oc a year and a half ago. <P>first of all, I need to say that my agreeing to pursue visitation really had nothing to do with any sense of self-sacrifice on my part. Honestly, I didn't take into consideration at all my h's "need to parent" the oc. it was more that my own curiosity was driving me nuts. Every time we would go back to our home town to visit, I found myself "searching faces". i would look at every little girl that we ran across - in the stores, on the street, etc. - and I would scan her face to try to discern any resemblence to my h. I would have known her by sight if we ran into ow, of course, but i was always checking in case oc happened to be out with a relative of some sort.<P>so when my h asked if we could pursue visitation, I said absolutely. It was almost a relief because i figured that seeing the oc couldn't possibly hurt me any more than I was already hurting myself with the curiosity/obsession about oc.<P>so that is why I agreed to it - not because I am a super compassionate and understanding person, but because I was driving myself crazy. Funny, huh?<P>Then during the couple of months leading up to the first visitation, I really began to question myself. Could I ever look at oc without immediately hating her because of her mother? would I ever be able to see her as "just a child"? Would I ever be able to care for her at all? The more I asked myself these questions, the more I became pretty certain that when my compassion was actually tested, I would fall way short. One day my mom mentioned that she had seen oc with ow at Walmart. I asked what oc looked like. Mom said, "She was cute, just like any other toddler is." I was really angry. I wanted my mom to say, "She was ugly compared to your precious children" or something equally ridiculous along those lines. And then I started thinking about all the troubled kids I worked with - how with THEM, I was able to get past their backgrounds, get past their most unlikable traits, to see the lovable child inside. Why couldn't I imagine myself doing that with the oc? The closer we got to the date of the first visitation, the more I doubted my own innate "goodness." I told my h that if I really did hate oc, we would have to stop the visits because I knew it would just be mean to put a child through that.<P>And then, on the first visit, two things happened:<P>1. oc looked a lot like one of my boys does. I found that I couldn't immediately hate her because it was almost as if I would be hating my son by proxy. It was almost as if the physical resemblence to my h - the one thing I thought I would hate her for - prevented me from hating her at all. Weird, don't you think?<P>2. Oc was a little spoiled, a little grating, a little unlikable. My h was a bit turned off by her coarse mannerisms. Also, she was a little on the homely side. she had my h's looks, which on him and our boys look great because they are male, but on her looked strangely masculine. Plus, she had an awful unflattering haircut. I don't know how I would have felt had she been a "picture-perfect" cherub, but a slightly unlikable and homely child? This I could relate to. After all, I worked with children every day who had unlikable mannerisms. While ow sure wasn't doing oc any favors by bringing her up the way she was, she sure did me a favor by making her into a child so similar to the ones I cared for every day in my career.<P>So the visits began. by the second visit, I had gotten over the awkwardness I felt at having ow present, and had started to play with oc just as I would have any other little kid. And when she laughed and giggled and threw her arms around my neck, she truly was a beautiful little girl. i thought to myself, "I am going to love this child." I was so surprised. And so delighted. and so relieved that I wasn't a cold-hearted monster after all. <P>When ow came to us with her proposition to stop the child support pursuent to us dropping visitation, I could see the relief wash across my h's face. Being that we hadn't yet had a chance to bond with oc on our own, away from ow and her family, so he hadn't really been comfortable in interacting too much with oc, and hadn't really gotten to know her very much at all. I know that given time, he would love her - that's the kind of guy he is - but at this point, he was still "beating himself up" because he didn't feel an immediate pull to be her father. so after we talked it over and made the heart-wrenching decision to stop visitation (because we thought it would be in oc's best interests if ow's boyfriend adopted her) I was the one who really had a hard time with the thought of never seeing her again. I was the one who cried a little about it in secret during the night. <P>Now I am a nervous wreck over the idea of starting up visitation again, primarily because I have not steeled myself for it like I did last time. This time I know that the situation has the potential to hurt me more than I hurt myself. All very convoluted, don't you think? I am back to the same old questions: "Will I hate oc for interfering in my life?" "Will I be able to see past the situation to learn to like the child." The list of questions goes on and on. I wish now that we had not discontinued visitation in the first place. The first visit was a giant hurdle for me to get over last time. Now it has grown to mountainous proportions.<P>Anyway, I just thought that I would share with you how I felt about visitations. I still maintain that it is not a good choice for everyone, and I'm still not certain that it is the right choice for me. I guess we will have to wait and see, right?<P>with love,<BR>cd

Oh God! cd,will the court make ow be present for visits? When I read that I flipped out.<P>At church today, I prayed to God to open my heart on the day my H visits and let me be reminded of our love.<P>Maybe that won't be enough. I mean to get me through those first hours.<P>For me it will always be about ow. <P>You know....she had my H penis....she will have a child from their orgasm....(his, anyway) she may get our name for child(I don't know the laws here in ohio)....but honestly when I think of the child as seperate I don't feel threatened anymore. It's the ow and how she gets ALL the choices. H said it angers him too, not having even a little control. It's like she gets so much ....money included....for HER choice! I don't know...just my thoughts too.<P>btw exact reasons for seeing child for my H is so child will know he didn't abandon child. H couldn't do that to any child of his. No matter who the mother was.<P>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

gem, <BR>It depends on what ow and your h are able to work out. In our case, it was easier for us to go along with ow's desire to be there for the first three scheduled visits than to go to court to try and prevent her from being there. Anyway, as it turned out, our visits were much more painful for ow than they were for me. she said later that she realized for the first time that she would have to share her child with another woman - which is what led her to ask us to back out in the first place. If you think about it, the only thing in the world that could possibly match the pain of having someone else "share" your h for a few hours is to have another woman "share" your child forever. I would be lying if I said that the thought of that little bit of revenge doesn't thrill me. I don't understand why she didn't just leave us alone while she had the chance. If things had worked out differently, and h had continued the affair and gotten a divorce, I'd move to another country before I'd let her participate in raising MY children.<P>In our case, ow did not want my h's last name for oc. she doesn't want him to even BE the father of oc, except of course financially. She will be so ticked off when she finds out that her cs is going to be reduced. I like the way my lawyer said it last night. He said, "ms. ***** is about to find out that all her child is entitled to is the hind tit." He's a coarse-talking bugger, but I do love the way he thinks! He keeps referring to her cs as "blood money" and the more you think about it the more sense that makes. The blood connection is the only thing that allows her to get the money at all. Anyway, it feels good to be able to finally take away her biggest "weapon" in all of this. Every time we have talked with her about visitation, she keeps saying, "If you try to get visitation, I am going to take everything I can from you!" I just keep thinking, "That's what YOU think, sweetheart. But that ain't what's going to happen."<P>My h is also furious that ow gets all the choices - she even told us recently that she almost gave oc up for adoption, but that in the end she couldn't "do that to her baby." Does she think keeping her was so much better in the long run? how selfish!<P>Regarding the last name: It is my understanding from talking to social security officials that the mother can name the child any way she wants. She could give it Elvis' last name if she wanted to, and there is nothing anybody could do about it. so I guess it will depend on what your ow wants the last name to be. If she wants it to be your h's last name, I don't think you can do anything about it.<P>I'll be praying for you.<BR>cd

GEmini, The mother of the oc has been present during my H last two visits. Today will be his last supervised visit and then next week he will start the unsupervised. The reason for the mother of the oc in our case being present is that the child had never met my h. After many arguments with mediators, lawyers, and judge the only thing ow would agree on was this situation. Since it was only one hour for three consecutive weeks, we agreed and it has not been bad. She has stayed in the next room, and not be overbearing. She knows my h can not stand her. During my experiences in court and listening to other cases while waiting our turn, I have noticed when the child is an infant or very young there usually is no reason to award supervised by the ow. Hope this info has been of some help. GAbi 1116

CD< you must have been posting at the same time I was. I read your reply to gemini after my last post. It again is so interesting to see how similar our ow is to yours. She had also told my husband after a cs hearing if he trys to seek visitation she would run away if she had to. But she has maintained thru it all that the cs and money are her right. Yet she truely feels that visitation is not my h right. I love how your lawyer refers to all this is terms are quite amusing. Our lawyer has told us that he is going to make ow see that my h is not just a check book with legs. Anyway I must say that the mediator who was a woman and a social worker also put the ow in place at the very last meeting when the visitation was finally agreed on and court ordered. She told her that we could hash this out as long as she wanted but in the end there has to be some visitation agreed on IT IS THE FATHERS LEGAL RIGHT. So although I feel that the ow has been given too much freedom of choice sometimes they are put in their place. I truely feel you will have positive results in the future mediation on the visitation. Gabi1116

cd, your lawyer sounds like a hoot! I fear ow in our case will do what she can to make it bad for H. Maybe not? Maybe she won't file for paternity.(FAT CHANCE).<P>I feel like she's waiting patiently to "be" with H through the child. I know I sound crazy....but she was my friend and knows what buttons to push to drive me crazy.<P>Heck, she already pushed the biggest one! <P>Thanks Gabi & cd..<P>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Gem, wow I did not realize she was your friend or maybe I missed that in posts. I am somewhat new here. As cd has said in the past it is hard to accept the fact you had to share your H so to speak because of the affair. Well the affair is over and the both of you are working things out and want to continue to build on your love and marriage. <BR>That alone should be pushing her buttons. And for her to have to share her child with another woman for the rest of its life another major button of hers gets pushed. I personally could not share my babies with anyone else. Keep that chin up. Peace, Gabi

Gab, we all would go out together during A. ugh! her H and her,me and H....can you imagine? H said he felt powerful knowing we were both there at first but then began to feel guilty. We kinda quit going out on such a basis around middle of June.(last time)<BR>I never even questioned that except maybe one time and he gave some simple answer.<P>Gabi, I do not want to see child. I only agreed to 3rd party visits. H says he thinks I'll want to just to be always a presence in childs life. I am not ready for that. So ow will not have to worry, at least not yet.<P>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Dear gem,<BR>While I wasn't exactly friends with the ow, I did go out with her once with my h. At the time, I thought she was just one of a group of work-buddies that he hung out with at his job (she was a fuel cashier at the truckstop where he was a diesel mechanic). Not only did i sit there making friendly conversation, but I PAID for the meal. and then she invited us all back to her apartment, where she and h apparantly were kissing in the kitchen - under the guise of fixing drinks - while I sat on the porch like a fool. One of her roomates finally got up and left, saying, "I just can't watch this anymore." Poor, clueless me had no idea what she was talking about. ow explained it away with some kind of weak excuse. Talk about me being in denial!<P>That is probably the part of the whole affair that angers me the most. right in front of my face like that. The gall! And I can't believe my h would ever go to that level of deceit.<P>Then after we got home, h went back to ow's apartment because he "forgot" his wallet, or some such rot. I am pretty sure that while I was waiting at home for him, he was over there screwing her (although to this day he denies that he had sex with her that night). then he came home to me, and we did it. Talk about sloppy seconds. Oh, I am furious just thinking about it. for all I know, that could be the night that we BOTH got knocked up - it's not too far fetched, really, if you think about the fact that we both gave birth within two days of each other.<P>Oh how I wish I had poisoned her pizza! Really, i do.<P>cd

CD, your posting was the only one I read, don't have time to read all of your replies. First off, I will tell you that I have never been in your situation. The only way that I can relate to it is the fact that I have step kids and along with that comes an ex wife. Different I know, but still involvement in a woman that was once part of my husbands life. One of the things that I love the most about my husband is his tenderness and extremely love for his children. Because of these mannerisms, he's also a fantastic step father. I'm fully aware of the many dad's that fail in the fatherhood department once they divorce and remarry and I'll admit that a lot of times that has to do with how his second wife reacts. There are a lot of 2nd wives out there that would like nothing better then the first wife and "first" kids to just disappear. Many times these men just agree with his new wife because lets face it, we women can make their life miserable!! I think in cases where the man is a real conflict avoider it is more likely to happen. My husband spends a lot of time with his kids and talks to them on a daily basis. It would never cross my mind to suggest that he was not a part of their life (he divorced when they were very young so he COULD have walked and they would not have even remembered him). I'm getting off track here, but my point is that I truly believe that in the cases where the father does want to see the OC for whatever reason (guilt, curiousity or true committment) that the very worst thing that the wife can do is not allow it. She may win but in the end I think she destroyed the real him and has made it impossible for them to ever have a loving and honest, open marriage. Whether he says it or even realizes it, he looses a lot of respect for her. I'm not saying that her feelings are not real and I'm not saying that they should not be acknowledged. You were so open and honest in your post and you realized that despite your feelings towards this OW and OC it was important to your husband. You see, you put him first despite his previous behavior and he'll love you forever for that. One last comment.....I read about these women feeling so threatened by the OW and by feeling this way all they are doing is giving her control that she doesn't have/deserve. I mean, lets face it, if the hubby wanted to go with the OW he'd do it. It's VERY possible to spend time with somebody, even make love to them and not have any feelings for them. It's also very possible to love somebody but for what ever reason NOT have feelings or love for them in the future. What I'm saying is that a cheater can see their lover without having feelings of love or lust for them. If a betrayed spouse and the WS have both decided to work on their marriage and their love the OW/OM OR the OC is not going to change that. If their minds could be changed that easy, who the heck would even want them????? For me, I see my ex a few times a month and I was with him for 18+ years. My husband see's his ex and doesn't have feelings towards her. Just because they have a child together doesn't mean his feelings will be stronger towards her then you. Now I'm babbling....sorry...just wanted to tell you that I'm proud of your post and the type of wife/mother you are.

<BR>Bonnie,<P>The sense of powerlessness references the feeling that an OW's unilateral decision to bear a child has financial repercussions on the families of the betrayed women. This outrage is amplified by unjust "child support" amounts that contain substantial hidden alimony.<P>In fact, I'm of the view that a lot of these OWs decide to have/keep a child precisely because the financial payout so grossly exceeds actual costs. We are, as a society, encouraging this kind of behavior, as well as creating financial incentives for women to leave otherwise saveable marriages.<P>Anyhow, CD's case is one of the rare ones in which the OW is going to get a lot less than she bargained for. CD had a prior "child support" order filed when the OC came along. The OW in this case fraudulently offered to withdraw a legal motion for child support if CD and her H would withdraw a legal motion for custody. The OW waited a couple of years, when it would appear that she could argue CD's H had abondoned the child (and hence deny all visitation), and then refiled for "child support." The OW openly bragged about this strategem.<P>Hah. CD's reopened her prior motion and is now getting over 50% of her husband's income, plus a spousal support order to boot. The OW's "child support" claim is second in line, and for all practical purposes CD's husband is already tapped out. CD doesn't know the details yet, but offhand I'd guess the OW is going to see the "child support" check cut by 75%. This is all retroactive, so prior "child support" payments will be treated as credit. The OW may find out that she isn't going to receive *anything* for a couple of months! <P>And on the other front, CD is absolutely torturing this woman about visitation. An example: She has asked the OW if the OC can be a flower girl when CD and her H renew their wedding vows! It just doesn't get any better than that. And you know what? I'm starting to think that CD will grow to love this child, so that even if the OW would *want* to have a husband adopt the child, CD will disallow it. And wouldn't that just be the most wonderful slap of all?<P>The system is rigged with all the wrong incentives, but once in a great while, justice happens. I've been cheering CD on every step of the way.<P>Bystander

Hello all...I dont even remember what this post was supposed to be about...I read everything and now can only think of a few things..lol..losing my mind.<P>Anyway ...I do know that I wanted to comment on the ow naming oc thing. In our case..in the state ow was in (AZ) she could not give oc H's name automatically. She sent him some papers to fill out to change the oc's name. He either was lazy or really didnt want to. To this day I am not sure bc he said he wanted oc to hace his name, but he still never sent in the papers. <P>Luckily for us when ow sued for cs and my H sued for visitation ow dropped her own case and moved. She refused to give us a forwarding address and since we have moved. So as of now there is no contact at all. I just dont know what will happen if years down the road she sues again. Our lawyer claimed not to know...said there had never been a case like that in Arizona...(anyone out there know about Az's laws?). So I guess if shes comes back years later I will find out...my question is can she get back cs?<P>Love and Prayers<BR>broken_wings