<BR>I am writting again to see if the general concensus is I am doing right or wrong... <BR>Yesterday I told my wife that I wasn't going to continue to come over to visit (or have sex) anymore while she continued to carry on with the other men she keeps telling me about. I just can't stand it when she tells me that she has to have their attention because she thought it was over for her as far as other men paying attention to her. It just seems as if I'm on a roller coaster trying to please her (sexually and emotionally) then being kicked in the teeth with stories of the other men and how she relishes in their attention. I thought that if I was meeting her phys. needs then she wouldn't be wanting them met by other men but now I think I just enabled her to feel more confidant in her new independence ( I am there when she needs a crutch and can be thrown away when the opportunity presents itself). I think at least this way, (not being around her) might make her think about what it's really going to be like to be w/o me buying her flowers, cards, fufilling her physical needs(I thought I was meeting her emoot. Needs alss but I guess not) I have read the book by Dobson, Tough Love. This complete seperation until she commits to working on the relationship is what I feel I need to do... Any comments from someone, preferrably a woman betrayer or almost betrayer who came back to H after long term seperation???<P>This is what the basic rundown of our sit. Has been... I posted this several days ago.<P> My wife and I have been married now this month for 20 years. We <BR> have had marriage problems for most of the 20 for many reasons. <BR> Alot of the problems stemmed from poor communication skills but there are<BR> other complications as well. We were engaged to be married when I was 17.<BR> We had been having premarital sex for two years when she announced that<BR> was it ( as far as the sex went ) until we had our wedding night. I was young<BR> and stupid so beings she left no room for discussion on the subject I found<BR> other sources for my "recreational" needs. It was wrong, I wasn't a<BR> Christian yet but I still knew it was wrong. It got around and she caught<BR> wind of it and I not she broke off the engagement. Well we finally got back<BR> together but I again was stupid and thought the issue was over but soon<BR> after we got married it started to be apparrent that she was deeply hurt and <BR> of course I wasn't going to give in when she was the one to decide for both<BR> of us in the first place. Boy was I off base. <BR> I should have been more sensitive to her feeling even though she wasn't of<BR> mine. This started a deep rift between us. She didn't want to work on our<BR> relationship, just me to work on my side of it because she was already ok. I<BR> didn't like that attitude then and I didn't realize she was reaching out for me to help <BR> her work through it. I didn't see it though because she expected me<BR> to do all the changing, apologizing, compromising on all issues and I got alot of<BR> resentment over that. As we had each of our children she pulled away from me more<BR> and more. I didn't really know it at the time but as she was pulling away from<BR> me, I was taking it hard. I threw myself into my work and became a<BR> workaholic. A bad one. I still work too much, I am self employed.<BR> I wasn't home much and when I was she was always complaining about this<BR> and that. I know now that she was trying to connect to me in her way. Sex<BR> was a knock down dragout. I met this customer about 7 years into our<BR> marriage and almost got into an affair. I was feeling racked w/ guilt and told<BR> her about it several months later when she out of the blue asked me if I had <BR> fooled around since we'd been married, for a month or so she literally wore me <BR> out sexually. <BR> Things seemed better for a year or so then it got back to the same thing. we<BR> were ready to get a divorce when we had our last son (now 10) and that<BR> saved our marriage for awhile. It was somthing we both had in common. Well things<BR> were good - although I lost another piece of her - for a couple of years then<BR> it got bad again. I wanted to desperately save our marriage. I pleaded w/ her<BR> for us to go to counselors etc. She always refused. <BR> Well 3 years ago we were both terribly unhappy. She wouldn't do anything<BR> to change it and I lost all hope and resolved myself to just hanging in there<BR> until the kids were raised. She was gone all day almost every day after my<BR> last son went to school full time. I was afraid she was going to have an affair<BR> so I insisted she get a job to occupy her time (and to make her time<BR> accountable for my piece of mind) After much resistance she finally got a<BR> job as a dept. store clerk. Soon after she did she let everything go, he house, the kids,<BR> everything for the job( I thought). She asked me to move out on fathers day '96. She<BR> said there was no one else, that she needed time to sift through her feelings.<BR> I paid for everything and lived in a hole while she didn't attempt to think<BR> about anything except for herself. I always made it a point to ask her about<BR> any "others" After a couple of months I was visiting the boys and went to<BR> talk to her in the bedroom. She didn't answer and I thought I heard crying. I<BR> opened the door and relized she was in the closet talking on the phone. I<BR> listened to her telling her mother that she couldn't live without this fellow at<BR> work etc. etc.. Well I went through the roof. I could not believe she had lied<BR> to me, while I was making a big sacrifice on the basis that she was being<BR> true to me at least while she was making up her mind... She told me it was<BR> just am emotional affair, nothing physical. After the steam died down she had<BR> me convinced it was all my fault, I had drove her to this other guy because<BR> of how I was. There was no remorse, still to this day isn't. She deserved to<BR> feel good about herself and I wasn't meeting her needs etc.etc. Well I went<BR> ahead and trusted her, she said he was being transferred in one week. She<BR> wouldn't tell me who he was. I went ahead and continued to wait for her to<BR> make the decision whether or not she loved me anymore. Thanksgiving of<BR> '96 she asked me to move back in. I was happy. I thought we'd get down to<BR> business abt. patching our relationship up. It was very weird. She didn't<BR> want to work on our relationsip at all. She hid in our bedroom most of the<BR> time. Cried alot for this fellow at work etc. Didn't want to be seen w/ me in<BR> public where people at work could see us together. I felt she was lying to<BR> me, I was being sneaky and felt bad about it then I overheard another conversation, <BR> She was talking to her best friend about this same guy at work. And about how cold he had been treating her lately. Her friend was egging her on to get close to him and not let him cool off to her. I went weak in my knees. I felt so stupid, betrayed, I went ballistic and<BR> went to her work place and made a scene in a confrontation between her,<BR> the fellow at work and myself. The police were called and I almost got<BR> arrested. I did not lay a hand on him but he went running off screaming for<BR> the police. I felt as though she must have been having intimate relations w/<BR> him by that point and seeing his freaking out at my confronting him. We<BR> tried to still live together but I could not trust her, she didn't act sorry and as<BR> before it was my fault. I asked her to move out and after repeatedly saying<BR> work on our relationship and commit to me or move out she chose to<BR> move out. On hind sight I still don't know if I did the right thing or not. We<BR> have had really great sex through all this but it is very empty for me. I miss<BR> having a soul mate. She refuses to make up her mind to work on it or file for<BR> divorce. I am very unhappy. She has mentioned she didn't get to sow her<BR> wild oats as I did ... as though shes wanting to date others and has said without reservation that she likes the attention that other men pay her, and that she doesn't want to go <BR> around me in public because they might think that shes attached and not pay <BR> attention to her anymore. <BR> I don't know what to do. It's been three years since it started and because of my <BR> hasseling her about making up her mind or move out she moved out.<BR> She still wants me there to support her by helping w/ the kids...I<BR> have them 99% of the time. I have not given her much financial help since<BR> she doesn't have the kids "by their own choice" I am just empty inside. All<BR> she thinks about is her, her nice things (that she took when she moved out)<BR> and how nice it is not to have to deal w/ the kids. I should be saddled w/<BR> that now since she has to think about her career and can't excel w/o giving it<BR> all to work. I am getting very resentful about her actions but I still want to <BR> work it out. She doesn't ever want to talk about our problems and she now says <BR> she has to keep her independance and that she likes the single girl life.<BR> She said a day or so ago that she is ready to do something else and I <BR> asked her to divorce me rather than cheat on me. <BR> She said lets get a divorce then. That's not what I wanted her to say <BR> and I told her that. She says it too late and she is very cold to me and now has acted like <BR> says the sex (I call it making love) should stop because she feels so guilty for <BR> not working on the relationship and that it's leading me on. She also feels that because <BR> there is no passion for me in her heart she can't stay with me. I have told her that<BR> the passion will return when we get our relationship back on track but she insists that <BR> it has to come first. The problem with that is that I am so frustrated that I loose<BR> my cool and get angry with her off and on. I am VERY gealous of her and these other guys<BR> and the friction it creates is definately is even further destroying my love bank <BR> account with her. I feel as though I and my emotions are out of control.<BR> I don't know what to do, Today my sister was on the web at my house and she <BR> found your site and found the Greg and Sally letter. Sound incredibly like our <BR> situation except for the few twists I have mentioned. I read your book His<BR> needs / Her needs then coaxed her into reading it when this first started.<BR> I have since bought and read Love busters and Give and take. She won't read anymore<BR> books because she doesn't feel it will do anygood. We have been to several counselors<BR> also the first year but when they got around to her doing her part she didn't want to and <BR> that was that for counseling. She doesn't want to go back at all. <BR> Is there any hope?? I do still love her and want to do all that I can to win her back <BR> but I don't know how to get grip on how I act around her when all she does is reject me.<BR> I think your idea on negotiating is great but I don't think she'd even consider it unless she <BR> felt there was a real chance that she could regain her love and passion for me.<BR> Please help us if there is anything you can do or suggest.<P><BR>Thanks<P>Douglas

Hi Douglas -<P>First I want to say Welcome to MB and I'm sorry that you have to handle all of this. It is painful and confusing, but believe me when I say that we all know how devastating this situation is. <P>I also wanted to tell you that there are a lot of wonderful people here who will help you as much as they can. Even if it's just to lend an ear. The boards are slower on the weekends - especially Holiday weekends, so don't be discouraged if you only get a few replies right now. By midweek it should pick up. OK?? Just hang in there.<P>I went back and read your other post and noticed that Deb and Carol gave you some good advice. Have you thought about what they've said yet? <P>My take on things is that your W has discovered HERSELF (or so she thinks). She seems to have put her own persona aside and lived for and about her family. Apparently, this is time for her and by keeping so much of herself pushed down beneath everything and everyone else - her breaking out turned into an eruption!!!!<P>If you've read Harley's material on this site then you know some things about what you need to do. First and foremost is understanding the symptoms and stages of affairs and rebuilding a marriage. Through all those years of ups and downs within the marriage - I would have to say that all of the problems were not addressed properly and to both of your satisfaction. If this latest incident is to be overcome, it has to be time to straighten things out completely and the correct way.<P>That can only be accomplished by WORK!!<P>You cannot control your wife's behavior or thinking. You can however, show her that you are learning what the correct way is to have a great marriage!!<P>That starts with you!!! Like I said you have to read, learn and put into practice all the tools that you find that could make you a better communicator and person!! You must not REACT to your wife's words or behaviors, but rather, you must modify yourself to the teachings that you discover!! She will see the modifications and acknowledgement will be forthcoming!!<P>So, where to start - #1 is to work through your anger....You know about lovebusters, so you know that you can't do them and expect your wife to feel endeared to you!!! Start doing some Plan A'ing. If you don't know the Plans, may I suggest that you read "Sur-<BR>viving an Affair" by Harley. This explains them and will guide you along.<P>This road is very difficult. If you truly love your wife and want to rebuild your marriage than YOU will have to start the work!! Make yourself and your homelife as safe and pleasant as possible so that she will want to return to you and work with you for a better life. <P>It won't be easy, things worth having seldom are!!! You will get extremely frustrated and hurt at times but it is all part of the "fantasy life" she has going on in her head. You have to show her that reality can be just as good!!<P>Telling her and even showing some caring actions from time to time is not going to break her from this fantasy. Only time and consistantly better behavior on your part will help to wake her from it.<P>What helps me is that the way they treat you when they're in this fantasy is all part of the pattern of infidelity. Therefore I look at it as being "temporarily out of their mind" This helps me not take every little thing so personally!! It's a symptom of a disease, so to speak!! This does not, by any means, say that I don't take responsibility for any contributions to the problems in the marriage. On the contrary, it helps me to not be so consumed by the hurt and anger, that I am free enough to be able to work on those very problems and correct whatever I can about my contribution to them.<P>I hope that I have helped you some. Didn't mean to rattle on so much.<P>And don't forget about it being a weekend....other's will be along in a few days. In the meantime, you can do some self analysis and identify what you feel are things that you can work on about yourself.<P>Hugs and Strength to you,<P>Sheba

Sheba,<BR> She has repeatedly asked me to leave her alone to think. From what I've read in the forums maybe to think or be w/ other men? At any rate, if I keep being there for her (2 - 3 years now... won't she just continue takeing me for granted? I have read the a & b Plans and I agree w/ them to a point but after this long should I keep them up or am I being a fool? Also, we are from a fairly conservative church and alot of what she's<BR>doing in her NEW lifestyle is being shown to the kids which I feel is dragging them into <BR>a more worldly lifestyle. Don't think were Menonites or Quakers, we are in a fairly mainstream church. She put's me in the direct position of comprimising my beliefs as to what is best for the kids to see how far I <BR>will go to please her when she knows I don't approve. It's such a complicated situation.<BR>I also own a business that is very demanding of my time. When this first happened I let it go to be with her alot and I just about went into permanent poverty. I have to spend x amount of time in it and I cannot sell out because it is a very artsy type of business and I am the designer. I cannot seem to quit because I still haven't completely got out of the financial mess I got into at the start of this mess and then next job always is paying the bills for the last job. She knows this but doesn't care. I feel as though I'm trapped in a situation she will not work with and that times just ticking till she says or admits shes going w/ someone else.<BR>things we both held as a firm belief<BR>

Sheba,<BR> She has repeatedly asked me to leave her alone to think. From what I've read in the forums maybe to think or be w/ other men? At any rate, if I keep being there for her (2 - 3 years now... won't she just continue takeing me for granted? I have read the a & b Plans and I agree w/ them to a point but after this long should I keep them up or am I being a fool? Also, we are from a fairly conservative church and alot of what she's<BR>doing in her NEW lifestyle is being shown to the kids which I feel is dragging them into <BR>a more worldly lifestyle. Don't think were Menonites or Quakers, we are in a fairly mainstream church. She put's me in the direct position of comprimising my beliefs as to what is best for the kids to see how far I <BR>will go to please her when she knows I don't approve. It's such a complicated situation.<BR>I also own a business that is very demanding of my time. When this first happened I let it go to be with her alot and I just about went into permanent poverty. I have to spend x amount of time in it and I cannot sell out because it is a very artsy type of business and I am the designer. I cannot seem to quit because I still haven't completely got out of the financial mess I got into at the start of this mess and then next job always is paying the bills for the last job. She knows this but doesn't care. I feel as though I'm trapped in a situation she will not work with and that times just ticking till she says or admits shes going w/ someone else.<BR>things we both held as a firm belief<BR>

Douglas -<P>Hi, Again!!!<P>I completely understand how you are feeling. I, too, have been in this nightmarish limbo for almost three years!! I know the doubts about sticking it out or thinking you will look like a fool. <P>I can only tell you how I look at my situation. <P>I did not find this site until May of this year. For the whole time before that I was pretty much Plan A'ing without even knowing it. There was however a lot of things that I did not know and therefore did not do!! <P>So, what I basically decided when I found this place and began reading up on relationships and infidelity and how to make things better, was to treat this situation as if I had just discovered it. Forget the last couple of years - they were stagnant wasted time on my part and for H it was all the more time to grow away from me. Even though I did some things right - I didn't do alot of things that I could have or didn't do them in the correct manner. Now I know HOW and am changing myself to incorporate that knowledge. This is the reason why I say that I am starting from the May date - I "discovered" the right way to do things in May!!!!<P>My H moved out just after I found this info and filed for divorce!! But still I am proceeding with a Plan A approach and working on myself. Even though my H is so far into his "other life" he has noticed alot of things and has been quite nice and showing alot of wishy-washiness!!! So it is having an effect!!!!<P>i am not fooling myself that he will not divorce me - maybe he will!!! However, I need to become the best person that I can be anyway, so if my working towards that goal endears my H to me in the future than that is the way God wants it to be. It's in HIS hands and somewhat in my H's hands as to the outcome. It is in my hands as to who I want to be and how I choose to grow!!!!<P>Like I said to you on my 1st post - You can choose to have a different perspective on this. You have been in it a long time that's true. However, if you do not know or do not do the work you need to then no time is productive!!<P>You are at an advantage in that you both are speaking, had intimacy, etc. and are still very much a part of each other's lives. Has she seen consistant change for the better in you? Only this will start the process moving - otherwise, it's as stagnant as the marriage has been for a while!! You've got to start putting some life into it with the things you have learned!!! <P>Talking is one thing - Actions and self-improvements are another!!! Make yourself Happy and than she will see it and maybe want to know what you've done to get that way!!<P>Don't waste this time - use it to your advantage!!! She's in her own fantasy and little world right now. She likes it there!! She does not have to think of everyone else coming first and can make herself be 1st!!<P>Let her see that you realize that you know that you can put each other 1st and the marriage can be better!!<P>yes, the immorality and hypocrite atmosphere surrounding you is very frustrating. I have those same feelings. I override them with the knowledge that this is part of infidelity and does not necessarily mean that they will always be like this. They weren't before, right?<P>When we say "for better or worse" in our vows - I guess this is part of the "worse" - do you love your wife enough to stick it out and do what you can do work for the marriage. Or do you look to her to just stop this on her own? <P>This is something that I feel I must help my H with and the only way to do that is to keep loving him without putting conditions on that love. Yes, he is wrong, but he is also very confused and wrapped up in all of this. I can only control my own thoughts and actions - not his. Those are his own demons that he must face. I will help him as much and as diligently as I can because that was my vow!!! I took that vow because of love - not because the marriage must always be how I like it and if there's a problem - he better straighten it out!! We married each other and we should help each other through the hard stuff!!!<P>I hope this helps with your feelings and perhaps helps with a new perspective. You Honestly, can make a difference with how you change your approach!! Continuing to do the things that you've been trying all along is futile because it would have worked by now if it was the correct way to do things.<P>That shows that you need a new approach to the situation and I really think that you have the power within you to start the process. As far as the business and her understanding about it and you - forget it for now. Right now it she does not want to care about your problems. You have to handle and work things out the best way you can to accomodate a good and happy atmosphere in your life. Concentrate on how you can juggle your business, kids, house, etc. Use your energies to develop the best routine or way of functioning in the day to day aspects of your life. Never mind what she contributes or understands. What matters is that you can be happy and have less pressure on yourself.<P>Once you accomplish that you will have the energy to give to your wife when she sees that you have done so well and wants to be a part of it again.<P>Again, I hope this helps with your understanding of this nightmare. It's hard for you, I know, but she doesn't want a life without changes to the way things were. Start those changes!!!!<P>Hugs and Strength to you,<P>Sheba<BR> <BR>PS - Just to clarify, lest you misinterpret anything. This does not mean that your W does not have changes that she needs to make - this is only to get the changes started. Once she sees some from you and things start going better with the two of you, then she should be ready and willing to share these tools with you and together you can build a better marriage. A marriage where you are both happy, equal and fulfilled!!! <P>

Hi Douglas,<P>How are you today?<P>Bringing this to top so others will see it.<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Hi Douglas,<P>I wanted to check on you and give you some advice. But truly, I can pretty much just say "what Sheba says..." becuase she illustrates it wonderfully.<P>Get into some effective behavioral counseling, and make one last attempt at "Plan A". I suggest that you purchase "Surviving an Affair" (some of it will look familiar). I counseled with Steve Harley here at MarriageBuilders and I found him to be extremely effective. The counseling is over the phone (888-639-1639).<P>If you truly feel that your plan A effort has been effective, than the no contact separation (Plan B) is a good move. But based on your posts, you haven't eliminated lovebusters yet. I'd work on that and demonstrate that consistant track record of new behavior.

Hi Douglas - I'd like to add my welcome to those of the others. I think you'll find that this is the right place for you to discuss the painful problems facing your marriage. I've found the members here to be just incredibly supportive and helpful (and, of course, you're always free to take someone's advice with a grain of salt -- or not take it at all. And I agree with K that Sheba has some very wise and hopeful observations and suggestions.<P>I'd like to add one thing. After reading your story, painful as it is (and you really do have my sympathy for your situation), I was struck by the fact that at least your W's affair is out in the open and you're confronted the OM. (BTW, good for you!)As long as a spouse's affair is still "underground" it's ten times tougher to deal with the problem. At least this way it allows you to get the problem out in the open and talk about it. It's too bad she doesn't seem to want to do counseling any more, but it sounds as though you are insisting to her that the two of you at least talk about the issue and I think you should continue to do this even when she doesn't want to.<P>It's also unfortunate that she seems to be trying to lay ALL the blame for everything that's gone wrong in your marriage (including her affair) on you. You just have to not buy into this kind of B.S. and, especially, stop apologizing when you're not really at fault. That only encourages her. Maybe you should even try some kind of ultimatum. If things haven't changed in a certain amount of time, that's it. You can tell her that you can't live in a relationship like this and that she has to make a choice about recommiting herself to you and your marriage. If she's not really willing to do this, then maybe you should consider initiating action to make your separation permanent. Sounds like you're waiting for HER to do something in this regard, but you might feel better if you started taking some real action yourself, like the time when you confronted the OM. You say you don't want this to happen. (It sounds a lot like you still love her very much and want her back.) But, unfortunately, maybe it has to. We can only love someone for so long when they just keep hurting us and hurting us over and over again. There comes a time when we just have to face that what we had before with them is gone and probably won't come back.<P>I'm experiencing this in my own marriage right now, and it's been a real struggle for me to accept this fact. I still sometimes prefer to try and live in my old romantic illusion until my W does or says something that throws cold water on the whole idea. Then I ask myself, "Why am I doing this? And why am I staying in a marriage that's become mainly just a source of hurt for me?" And my answer is that I still do love my W very much, that's why. But I'm coming to see that, as they say, "love is not enough." That while I may love her, I probably can't continue living with her much longer, it's just too much of a strain with all the lies, the blaming, the withholding and everything else. I guess my point is that we all come to this kind of fork in the road where we have to make tough decisions like this and bite the proverbial bullet.<P>Anyway, hang in there and keep us posted. Yours is quite a story. Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Douglas, <P>Let me also say welcome and I'm sorry. I have been married 17 years (known her for 20) and I can relate to some of the things you are saying. My W and I never physically seperated, but we certainly where emotionally. <P>In your story, you mention all this taking place over a three year period. How awful. you have endured much pain and suffering. Perhaps now is the time to go to the tough love. Your wife appears to be happy with the way things are and is unconcerned with your feelings about all this. Plan B may help her to understand what life would be like without you, but you have to be prepared for the worst - she may not want to come back. If you are ready to handle that possibility, then go for plan B. <P>If not, then modify your plan A to pour more love units into her bank. The problem is though, you will probably suffer through lots more rejection. But, if you gave it another three months of no love busting, and total unconditional love maybe you would see some progress. When I mean unconditional I mean expect noithing in return. Hopefully, she will see your dedication and committment to the marriage. <P>This is your wife of 20 years. You have to ask yourself if you have really done all you can before you are prepared to let her go with Plan B.<P>There is always hope. Hang in there.<P>SHA<P>P.S. I liked this quote of yours:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I did not lay a hand on him but he went running off screaming for the police.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That must have been something to see. Good for you.

Douglas,<BR>There is really nothing you can do to change your wife. You can only change yourself. <BR>Basically you have to let her "fling" runs its course. Go to Plan B, cut off your contact with her and do the best job you can raising your kids.<BR>I too, wanted to protect my kids from seeing my w and her om living together. But I soon realized part of this moral indignation was an effort to punish her on my part. I also came to realize that I couldn't prevent the kids from meeting him. As long as they didn't do anything illegal in front of the kids, there really was nothing to fear.<BR>Kids aren't going to learn this is acceptable behavior if they have been taught its not. They are going to learn that that you are the one that is providing a stable home for them. Also if your wife is acting as carefree as you say, she will not want them around if they interfer with her dating.<BR>You then have to decide, do you want to wait till she returns to her senses, or do you want someone who is committed to you and your family.<BR>I've just gone thru this with my w. I learned along the way that the affair was not about me, it was about her and I just happened to be in the way. <BR>So your number 1 concern should be your children and yourself. Only after they are takedn care of can you wrry about your w. Your lovebusting only keeps her away. Show her you can survive with out her and maybe she will return.<BR>Best of Luck and keep on your knees inprayer.

Thanks alot for the interest in my situation.<BR>It does help to know that other people have gone thru this and or are going thru it and can identify with the hurt. I guess i'm not quite ready to "let her go" yet. When I'm away from her awhile I get to feeling like I can do without her, but when I'm close to her, seeing her familiar face and features, smelling the sweetness of her fragrance and as some of you put it start romanticizing, I just go mushy and can't think of losing her permanantly. I still see some glimmer of hope in her eyes and voice. I think she has suffered alot without letting me know how badly she felt. Some my fault for my actions/deeds , some her fault for not letting me know just how badly she felt when <BR>it was still relatively easy to deal with.<BR>She came over last night (Labor Day)and ate bbq cookout w/ me and the boys, said she appreciated being invited. She acted coy and appreciative at first then I guess I smothered her and she withdrew. I have a hard time leaving people to their own space. I am an "A" type personality and it drives me batty to just sit and do nothing. I guess I have to learn that sometimes nothing in my eyes is understanding and patience in hers. <BR>One good thing is that when I asked her to not to give up on us and she said she hadn't, that it was me wanting the time apart... Can't quite figure that one out since she has been telling me these three years that she needs time away from me but what the heck, sounds positive anyway. It's funny how you get excited about a small bone thrown your way when you get in this situation. But what can you say... I LOVE HER and it hurts to do so.<BR> Well, again thanks for the support and advice. <BR> <P>Thanks Alot<BR>Douglas<P>[This message has been edited by Douglas (edited September 08, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Douglas (edited September 08, 1999).]