I am into 7th week of discovery of OW/OC. I am better, less in shock, but find myself feeling like I am living in a nightmare. I am very up and down, not up much. I try to rouse myself to tend to my kids,they are so wonderful. I look at their beautiful faces, . I do not know if I ever can. Is it ever over, in backround, when OC exists? I think I could forgive H for affair so much easier. I am having a hard time forgiving the stupidity which resulted in the pregnancy and child. What upsets me the most-what he did was so risky and damaging to our kids, and he did not think of them.Now their lives may be irreparably damaged by what he has done-and I am not sure I can forgive him for that. Have you all forgiven husband's for child mistake-and how long did it take? H and I had another therapy session last week, with new therapist, and therapist asked what it would take for me to stay- I said I can forgive him for affair, am willing to take rsponsibility for where marriage went wrong and how we can work together to fix it, but I cannot accept him being involved with OC. ended, go again in 3 days. H was furious, wouldn't talk to me afterward. 3 days later, he asked to talk, saying he had been thinking of session, realizes if that what it takes, for now he will not push for contact with OC, not mention her name, wait a year, reserves the right to bring up subject again when I am "Stronger". I was being honest with him when I told him I do not think I will ever feel strong enough, he said": Well, then, I will have to accept that. In meantime, he says maybe he will forget OC( doubt it) or OW will meet another male to parent ( God, I wish that would happen) or she will move. I told him that meant the world to me, he finally was putting me and kids first.But since then, I remain worried--will he resent me for not permitting contact and then destroy the marriage? Have not talked to him since about it. WE are both exhausted at night- I know he is stressed. I feel so mixed toward him-know this is such a big mistake he has ever done, this is so unlike him. I vacillate between wanting to rekindle our life, he has so many good qualities and we have a long life together, and our desire to keep our family intact for our two great kids,and fear I will never forgive his complete disregard for me and kids-he failed to protect us from the damage he and OW inflicted on us. I am having a hard time even forgiving him for that.How are you all doing this? How do you get past this? Any thoughts would be most appreciated.<p>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 20, 2001).]

lsb:<P>I think that you would make better progress by both agreeing to follow Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement with your spouse. If you apply this to your marriage, then you'll both be protecting each other from thoughtless behaviors and actions.<P>Right now, there's no way that you can accept the OC. But there's also no way you can truly know how you'll feel in six months, or a year, or in 10 years. So I wouldn't spend too much time focusing on the future---deal with the present. If you both use the POJA to negotiate your dealings with the OC and his mother, you will build love together because you're taking each other's feelings into account. Even though it's a horrible situation, it can bring you together.<P>As far as resentment goes, Harley categorizes them into two kinds. The resentment you have for things you "could" have done but didn't (because they weren't acceptable in a POJA fashion); and the resentment you have for things that WERE done that you didn't agree to. Harley believes that the second resentment (an "active" resentment) is much more damaging to a marriage. Your husband may have resentment if you can never agree to deal with the OC---that's true. But there's much more resentment involved when one spouse unilaterally decides to actively pursue a course that the other spouse doesn't agree to---like an affair, or a relationship with an OC, or running out and buying a new car.<P>You and your husband need to get on the same page. If this OW/OC situation is too close to home, you ought to consider moving yourself. Again, that should be decided via a POJA discussion. Harley's book <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6010_give.html" TARGET=_blank>Give and Take</A> is excellent for explaining the process of negotiation, as well as the "rules" for a successful marriage. And you might want to consider the phone counseling that Steve and Jenn Harley provide: they're excellent coaches for getting you to learn and practice these skills.

K, thanks for the explanation of the resentment.I really like Harley's distinction of the types of resentment,and I know my resentment stems from things being done to me and family that affected us without any say in what was going on. I do worry OC/Ow is way too close to us, only 5 miles away, but husband is not in favor of moving. I really do not want to move-his type of work really is best paid where we live now, we have made a life here for 15 plus years, moving would be incredibly stressful. I have worried about running into OW, she has been to our home, knows where we live, but now I know where she lives and so far no contact accidentally with her. My H says she does not want contact with me either. I hope she leaves-she has nothing tying her here, other than my H as father of her child and he says she has talked of moving. I hope she does. In the meantime, how long does it take to get over resentment? What to do to move forward? I know my depression is getting my husband down, but what can he expect of me? He has torn my world apart, and I am overwhelmed with agony at times. I do not want to make our life unhappy so he does not want to work this out, he is trying to be very solicitous right now, but it is very painful for now. I cannot wait till this pain is better.

lsb,<BR>It takes time what you are feeling is normal. I cried everyday in tears of hate,anger,fear,humiliation,and more for at least a yr. Until I found this site I thought I was alone in all of this I was so ashamed of what my h had done. I was not able to talk to anybody about this. When our trust has been taken like it has it takes a long time to rebuild you will find the more that your h proves his love and commitment to you and your family the easier it gets. With me it took a lot of action before I could even begin to believe. Take one hour at a time. In the beginning my moods would change that often. Its been two yrs now since we started working on us it is so much better than it ever was but that resentment you talk about as far as the stupity of h and ow producing oc is still there not as bad but its there. I dont know if I will ever be able to put that to rest it really bothers me that my h and ow so carelessly put in this world a human being that has got to live with the fact that he was concieved out of lies,betrayel and deciet. I really think the oc is going to have a much harder time with this then our child will. I try to think that maybe he would never have to know but how will he not. Hang in there lsb in time it gets better you and your family are in our prayers. with love flowerseed

lsb:<P>First off, you're only 7 weeks into this whole process. At week 7, I think I was still mainly in shock---and there wasn't any OC to deal with.<P>The best thing that I did when I discovered my wife's affair was to start counseling with Steve Harley (over the phone): the office number is 888-639-1639 for appointments. Steve is a terrific coach, and he can help you focus on the future, as well as aiding you in getting over the past betrayal. I'd highly recommend that you try the counseling. If your husband will participate, that'd be great as well.<P>Another thing that I did after a few months post discovery was to go on antidepressants. They definitely helped me focus and remain calm during my plan A efforts. I'd suggest that you might want to go that route as well, as a temporary (6-12 months) situation to pull you out of this depression. The antidepressants didn't make me "happy" by any means, but they definitely helped me make decisions in a calmer, and more rational manner.<P>Please consider the counseling if you feel that your current therapist isn't effective. I'm not sure what this new therapist was doing when they suggested a separation on the first appointment. It might have been either for shock value for your husband, or as a legit way to protect your feelings---but my gut would tell me that this therapist might not be an appropriate one for rebuilding your marriage. Ask them if they're familiar with Harley's work, and if they'll use the MarriageBuilder's materials in rebuilding the marriage.<BR>

Lsb,<P>Here is a different perspective, that may or may not help because my experience isn’t quite the same. Also, I presume that’s an “Other Child”.<P>I’m a divorced father of 2 beautiful girls. SuperX was up to no good, and at some point, even through the grief, I had to realize the facts were what they were and she was leaving. Mind you, I had a lot less willingness on her part to reconsider the marriage than it sounds like you have here. But enough about that, my point regards the OC and your resentment of the situation.<P>Since I’m in the dating world again, any relationship I am in involves “OC’s”. But in this case they are mine! Strangely, most of the women I have dated don’t have children, but most normal women I believe eventually want to get married and have children. Therefore, contemplation of a future relationship normally involves contemplating more children.<P>The way I see it, once those children are born, there are only 2 things that distinguish my current children from your husband’s “OC”: One is that if I remarry my future wife will be able to decide for herself if the situation is acceptable to her, and two, it won’t be forced upon her after the fact without her consent.<P>I believe it is appropriate, no matter how questionable the conception of a child, that that child should not be denied their father. The children are innocent in these situations. You say your husband, despite being a cheater, has some very good qualities. His own daughter has a right to learn from those qualities?<P>Also, here is another angle. If he could be persuaded to abandon his own flesh and blood based on your demands, what does that suggest about his level of responsibility towards your children?<P>If I was dating a woman that I perceived resented my children (believe me, it happened. She came to perceive my previous children as possible impediments to her having children with me), I would dump her straight away (which is what I did).<P>But the “OW” has to go. He can never see her again except as necessary for the transfer of his daughter for visitation. It’s not that difficult, I manage with SuperX. Maybe even might need another relative to pick his daughter up and drop her off. These things get so complicated.<BR>

nonplused,<BR>Are your two children yours? If not do you think you would feel diffrent if one was from another man and you had him involved in your marriage for 18 yrs? As far as ow you can not have the oc in your life without having to deal with the woman that screwed your h. Also our children from the marriage are also to be considered here and not every child regardless of how they were concieved have the right to our h they in most cases were just sperm donors not the oc father.The ow took that right away from the child when she got pregnate from a married man and choose to keep the child. flowerseed<P>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited March 28, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited March 28, 2001).]

Dear nonplussed,<BR>I just have to say that I think you may have forgotten one other factor that differentiates your current children from an oc born of an affair. I assume that planned or unplanned, Superx and you both wanted to have children together. In many of the oc cases, including my own, the h did NOT want ow to have/keep the oc. My h's ow told him she was infertile (yes I know he was a jack-[censored] for believing it). My h would have much preferred that ow give the resulting baby up for adoption - perhaps even to us to raise as our own - but she refused. WHen women are faced with an unwanted pregnancy, they have a multitude of options available to them. My h had none. Not one single solitary option, once conception had taken place. I don't think that you would accuse any woman who gives her child up for adoption to be "turning her back on her own flesh and blood".<P>I think that your heart is in the right place, but I really don't think that you can compare your situation to the situation we find ourselves in dealing with an ow/oc. Just for the record, my h and I are pursuing visitation/custody of oc. But to say that any betrayed spouse has an obligation to accept the ow/oc in their lives is just wrong. <P>cdcollins

nonplused,<BR>you are comparing apples to oranges, choice to no choice, and your comparision is lacking sensitivity. If you enter a relationship and your partner has children then you can decide if you want to build a life with this someone. If you are married and your H selfishly has an affair you have no choice, through his actions your H has changed the whole dynamics of your marriage as well as your family. THERE IS NO COMPARISION. The level of pain, humiliation, resentment, distrust and insecurity is paramount because of this "OC" situation and the journey from d-day forward is the hardest thing that I and everyone else on this forum has endured. My momma always said "think before you speak", nonplused please think before you post. <P><BR>[This message has been edited by Leelee (edited March 28, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Leelee (edited March 28, 2001).]

Nonplused, I can only echo what others have said. YOur situation is entirely different.What my husband and Ow did was flat out and out wrong. He did not enter the affair for the creation of a child, he went there for sex, pure and simple, as did the OW. That was wrong too, since initially OW was married, subsequently got a divorce, and my husband was married for 25 years to me,a nd we had two kids he does adore. <BR>Somehow he got off on wrong track , decided an affair would help him, did not consider pregnancy ever being an option. He thought he would have the affair and I would never know.Then the OW gets pregnant, refuses an abortion,initially tells husband she doesn't want anything from him then seeks paternity and child support 6 months later and now thinks she has rights for him to parent child and know our kids. She is nuts! I wish the child no harm, although I have to say sometimes I wish something would happen and she would no longer exist.But I do not want her in the life I created in a committed, marital relationship with my kids.I am going to do my darndest to protect their security and their life, and if I have to sacrifice the other child to do that, I will. I have to. My kids mean the world to me,a nd because their father made a huge mistake I do not have to accept the mistake into my home and life. If it sounds mean, so be it. If he were divorced,had kids, and I chose to be with him, that would be so different. He would be open with that, and I would accept that.But we are here because he did something away from the family, and just about has killed our family due to his selfishness and OW's selfishness. She refused an abortion,could have given child up for adoption, but selfishlessly kept child, and has nerve to wish my H and I work things out. How in the Heck do you do that with OC always in backround,a nd by association the OW? Anyway, you know not what you speak, and I hope you never walk in my shoes. It is an awful path to walk in.

Wow, I hit a nerve by the looks of things.<P>As a general rule, personal attacks are inappropriate in a serious discussion. Either my points are helpful in some way or they are not. They should stand on their own. Whether I succeed in being helpful is a matter open to debate, obviously with a consensus to the negative here. But either way, personal attacks and “higher than thou because of my pain” attitudes are inappropriate.<P>Flowerseed,<P> Yes, they are mine. If I were to date a girl who had a child/children by another marriage, by dating her I am implicitly accepting that fact. I expect acceptance of my children when I date as well.<P>Cdcollins,<P>Here is a quote from my original post:<P>“The way I see it, once those children are born, there are only 2 things that distinguish my current children from your husband’s “OC”: One is that if I remarry my future wife will be able to decide for herself if the situation is acceptable to her, and two, it won’t be forced upon her after the fact without her consent.”<P>I think the last part is consistent with your point that in the case of an affair, your right to choose has been taken away. But you still do have the choice of whether or not you wish to stay involved with a man who has a child by another woman (the cheater). It’s a yuckier choice, and it wasn’t part of the original deal, I agree.<P>Leelee.<P>The first thing I said was this wasn’t going to be a direct comparison, but I hoped it might lend some insight in to how the husband might see things here. Other than that I find your post insulting.<P>Lsb,<P>I agree totally with you about your feelings towards your husband. Of course what he did was wrong. But the fact is, your husband is going to have to take responsibility for his actions, no matter how stupid they were. When he made the decision to go ahead and have an affair, he made a whole myriad of other decisions at the very same time. Natural, unavoidable consequences follow. One of those consequences was the pain and turmoil in your own family, and I am making no attempt to deny your feelings. What you feel is very real and in my opinion justified. It will take some time before your anger subsides.<P>But that said, there are still some physical realities in this situation. Whenever a man makes a decision to have sex with a woman, he is by the very nature of the thing assuming some risk of becoming a father. There are things you can do to reduce the risk, like get a vasectomy, where a condom, ensure your partner is on the pill, etc. There are things you can do to increase the risk like stupidly proceed with no protection because of the passion of the moment. But either way, if a child is conceived, the man bears 50% of the responsibility for that child. If a man doesn’t like it, he shouldn’t be having sex. It’s a natural law that cannot be altered.<P>Your husband undoubtedly made a very stupid decision. But how he deals with it now is part of the learning process he needs to undergo. Obviously, he is not a man of integrity or this would not have happened. But men of integrity do not abandon their children. He must fulfill his responsibilities towards this child as he should any of his children. If he does not, he won’t be worthy to be anybody’s father/husband. Let’s face it, if he never saw this child again, you would loose what little respect you still have for him, because it would display a complete lack of integrity on his part, and an appalling lack of care and compassion, even towards his own child.<P>You are very right that no matter what, the new deal is uncomfortable. <P>I have walked in my own shoes. If you would like, I can tell you all about the pain of each and every stage of the affair, right through stages you haven’t got to yet, the pain of divorce (which is at least equal to that of the affair), and the pain of dealing with the affect it has on the children. Then I can tell you about how long it takes for your family and children to accept what happened, dating as a divorced person, all the issues that raises, etc., etc. Perhaps you are right, “I know not what I speak”. I will refrain from posting in this thread any longer, as it seems clear that my experience is unhelpful and irrelevant.<P>

I found that last post to be insulting. My husband chose not to have contact with OC and I have respect for him. I would not if he did. In fact, I wouldn't still be with him. A man's "responsibility" is to his wife and their family. It's his #1 priority, or it should be. Sure, he had sex with someone else, unprotected, but he knew her and she tried to "trap" him by saying she was on birth control. But, he chose to make a life and family with me. She could of had an abortion or given the child up for adoption (my husband was not given a choice), but chose not to because she was hoping my H would leave me for her when he got the DNA results back. Not only did she not get him, her bf broke up with her when he found out it wasn't his baby. Some women (or girls in my case) get what they deserve, while the rest of us honest women have to suffer the consequences.

nonplused,<BR>I did't say if you were dating another women with children I said if you were with your wife and one of the children were by another man would you think that you could stand that man involved in your marriage for 18 yrs.(no responce needed) I totally disagree with your way of thinking the only responsibility my h has toward oc is child support nothing else and I love him even more for that not less. Thank you for seeing that your opionions are not needed here. I think youre advice might be better accepted on the divorce board.

Well said flowerseed. Hey buddy your holier than thou attitude insults me...so let's call it even!

Nonplussed,<BR>You missed my entire point. I was not talking at all about MY lack of choice, I was talking about my H's lack of choice. women can choose, via adoption, not to participate in the upbringing of an unwanted child. That is their right. My h also has a right not to play "daddy" to a child he neither wanted nor planned. If he had the same rights as the ow did to choose, this pregnancy would have ended long before the child's birth. (I am against abortion, however I think my h would have chosen to abort this baby if he had a choice.)<P>But to address your last comments. you say that I have a choice whether or not to stay with a man who has a child to another woman. of course I do. But think about my other choice. I could get a divorce, which would leave my own children of the marriage without a full-time father, which would undoubtably be extremely detrimental to their psychological health. Why on earth would I sacrifice my children's well-being, just because a very selfish individual decided to keep a baby that she had no right to conceive in the first place. It is ludicrous.<P>And besides that, staying married does not "change" the original marriage vows. I promised to cleave unto my h, not unto all of his biological relatives, be it cousin, aunt, illegitimate child, etc. It wasn't part of the "o0riginal package", like you were so quick to point out, nor has the package changed. My h's responsibility is first and foremost to our marriage and our children. Everybody else is secondary.<P>Nonplussed, I don't think you mentioned if you had any daughters. But i am betting that if you had a daughter who someday was in my shoes, you wouldn't be so adamant in insisting that she accept another woman's child. Nor would you want your grandchildren to be screwed up as the result of a divorce. My bet is that if it was YOUR CHILD in my situation, you would be a lot more flexible on your viewpoints. Being a caring father, you would want for your daughter to do whatever was least painful for her. Nobody likes to see their children in pain. I am sure that you wouldn't force your daughter to accept any situation that would cause her great pain and heartache. <P>That's what we are all doing here - trying to make the situation as good as possible for our marriages and for our children. We each have to find the best case scenario for our individual needs, whatever the case may be. Sometimes it includes contact with oc, sometimes not. <P>Where the heck is catnip when something like this comes up?<P>cdcollins

c.d.<BR>He seemed to miss my point also.I was thinking the same thing as far as catnip but c.d. you filled in just fine for her. She would be proud. If catnip got wind of this one I'm sure we could hear her roar no mattter where any of us are at.Good thing this is a computer and we are not all in the same room as this one. I'd hate to see what he would look like when we all got through with him. Yeh Gads with love flowerseed <p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited March 29, 2001).]

Amen to that...we miss you Catnip!!!

Excellent post cd! A few of our legislatures should see THAT answer! As far as choices go, you have said it well.<P>I told my sister it's like being held down on the ground and ow is spitting on me and I am helpless to respond!<BR>All her choices, all!<P>Then to have my idiot H succumb to the C over our marriage, well..... nail me to the cross!<P>BTW, I guess he meant what he said about not reading any more letters I send, he will only talk if I call, because with the pay he dropped off today was a "how are you?" card and he asked how things were going with my surgery and drew two circles w/dots in the middle. Then he just signed his name....no "love" before it! And no mention of his "intentions" about oc either.<P>My sister suggests not running to a lawyer but wait till June to see how this will play out.<P>I don't know what the heck to do. I will not call!!!!<P>Hey, I've spent the last 2 days at the dental office where she works filling envelopes w/statements. Pro-bono, but I'm hoping it'll turn into a job. Who knows? Just to keep my mind busy. I get up and go to "work".<P>Thank God for my sister!!!!!!!!!!<P>Gotta go, I'm eating dinner w/them tonight.<BR>In case you guys forgot, she lives in the house next door w/her family.<P>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Dear nonpl...I just want to add that I understand what you say when you say it only bc that would have been my thoughts BEFORE I walked in these shoes. About the children anyways. I also have a step-daughter that I love dearly. I knew about her before I agreed to marry my H and welcomed her with open arms (as she did me). I love her very much. My h newest daughter I was never asked about. Ow never asked me if I wanted another "step-daughter". She didnt care. I did not agree to it and I will be damned if I am forced to be a mother to a child that is forced upon me. I am not saying the child is guilty of anything. I feel for the little girl, but do not feel that my right to choose should be violated bc some trash whore decided it was her right to do so. Sorry, its not happening...<BR>Anyway, no offense personally, but it is not as easy as it seems and to tell you the truth I was willing to help parent the child. My choice to decide though. Ow did not want me to have anything to do with her child. That was not her plan. Her plan was to have my H and it didnt qite work out for her. She withdrew her motion for cs and moved with no forwarding address. I am not about to tear my family up looking for the child for my H's "integrety".<BR>Screw "integrity". I love my H and have gained back respect for him and it is NOT bc of his "obligation" to oc, but his new dedication to my and OUR family. He is a good man, hell a great man and you chose some very sharp words.<BR>Hope all works out for you and ours...<BR>bw