Help. I am a mess. Just went to 2nd therapy session. I thought Husband had agreed not to have contact with OC unless I felt o.k about it last weekend. Now, what he says in session, he told me he would agree not to involve us in any contact with OC, but cannot agree never to have contact with OC. Says he hears I cannot accept it, now, but hopes in future I will change my mind. I told him I cannot feel like I am healing or moving in that direction as long as he continues contact with Oc or I feel in future issue will rear its ugly head, even if I do not change my mind about this. H feels he has bonded with child, feels he has to be father to child, has to live with himself not to abandon her. Although I can understand that, I cannot see him breaking up our family and our kids' needs for him to do this. It is clear to me, the only way to save my marriage is to accept contact with OC, and I do not see how I can do that. H is mad at me, I am mad at him. I want my life back, and now I am not sure I want any life with him if these are the conditions. I feel totally destroyed by what went on today in therapy, hate what has happened, hate the AFfair and OC. Feel damage will be done to kids if they know, yet how do you explain to kids why we are breaking up?It hurts so much-I have been with H for 30 years, to throw it all away after all this time feels unbearable. He thinks so little of us he can do that for OC, I just can't accept that. I feel uncared for by him, unloved, not met by my emotional needs. Therapist is right-neither one of us has to decide to accept the other's position,but then the obvious must happen-separation and divorce. I feel like should get a divorce lawyer for my protection.If we divorce, that is the end of my life with H, kids, and where we live. Will have to live out of area, give up job where I have earned seniority, give up home, lifestyle, everything. I hate that thought. But I do not really think I can heal as long as OC is in picture. H really thinks he has lots to offer OC and he needs to do that. How does he do that if I do not cooperate with that?: Is that possible without doing damage to our life together and our kids? I do not want kids to know of what father has done-he does and wants to come clean. How do you honestly explain an affair and child born out of wedlock to 8 and 4 year old??How do you make something so wrong sound o.k/ and acceptable if Daddy says it is wrong and he is sorry? I do not see my kids understanding this, but just getting more damgage and pain in the process. I am very scared my life is over. Think of ending it all. Wouldn't do it due to kids,but wish I could. Wish I didn't have kids, I would leave for sure. Help me, I need some thoughtful words from you all,especially the people who like me cannot accept the OC. But I want to hear from everyone.

lsb,<P>Dump your therapist and start with either Steve or Jenn Harley (888-639-1639). They're forcing you into impossible situations way too early in this process.<P>Here's what you SHOULD do with your husband. Both completely agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without spouse's enthusiastic agreement), and the Complete Rule of Honesty (if you are going to do something against your spouse's will---you tell them about it upfront).<P>You may very well change your mind about the OC. Certainly not in the next weeks. But perhaps in a few months. Or a few years. Or maybe never...<P>Your husband may very well change his mind about the OC. Probably not in the next weeks. Perhaps in a few months. Or a few years...<P>I personally think that the last thing you need right now is supporting you in your premise that you'll never accept the OC. I also think the next to last thing you need is someone telling you that you MUST accept the OC. The bottom line right now is that you're in shock. You're hurting more than you ever have. Your world has been turned upside down.<P>You need to gather yourself. And you and your husband need a counselor who can help you learn to make decisions together that (re)build love and respect between the two of you. Steve or Jenn Harley can help the two of you without polarizing the situation, as your current counselor is doing.<P>Relax. Breathe. Don't make any rash decisions---this is much too new for you.

K, I do not blame the therapist. <BR>Although I agree with Harley's premise of POJA, (if my husband had done that we wouldn't be posting on this site), I think there are issues one never reaches a compromise. For example, the contact with OC. I am a person who knows myself well, and am quite easily in touch with my sense of who I am.My H, in contrast, less so. I think it is true he needs to bond with C, for his own sanity. Likewise, for my own sanity, I cannot tolerate the continuation of his contact with the child because it represents to me the continuation of a life he created without my agreement and separate from our marital life and our kids' family life. HOw do you come to a POJA when we are so opposite? That is what I want to know.True, he may change his mind, I may change my mind, about OC. But I am not going to work on a relationship contingent on me accepting OC if I am not sure that will ever happen. I am not going to lie to my H about my intent, even if it means hastening my marriage's demise. my H does think the therapist may be hastening us in this direction-I see it differently. I think she is stating what he and I are both stating clearly-what we can and cannot live with now, and probably for future. I also just emailed my husband that there is limits to what I can deal with and accept-this is it. I have accepted the existence of the affair, the fact he introduced the child to my kids under false pretense, the fact the OW was in our home , the fact the other child exists,the 1200 month we pay in child support.All that was done to me prior to my knowledge. What more must I accept to save the marriage? I think there are limits, this is mine. Now, I know my husband is a caring man, and would be a great father to any child. But I still think the OC would be better served by having a real live in father, not an occasional glimpse of my husband, and I think the OW should know that as well.H wanted an abortion, I think he felt trapped and needing to be responsible for his act or sexual recklessness for child once OW became pregnant. I think affair would have ended prior to 3 years had not she become pregnant, he was at birth of child, he awaited paternity testing, court child support hearing, etc. Even he admits he hoped it would all go away so he wouldn't have to tell me.So now two years into process he has to tell me since our joint account has to pay child support-I ask you, how much can I live with? I feel as if part of myself is dying as I try to accept this-and if I go away, I will be no use as a wife or mother to our two kids.So, that is where I am at.By the way, K, do you have kids,how old, do you accept the OC, etc??Would like to know.

Isb,<BR> You may not value my advice as much as the other women on here because I am just a "Junior Member". But I think you H is being an a**. Sorry, just my personal opinion. I was talking with my H this morning and telling him how much help I have gotten from this forum and telling him a little about it. He (fortunately) wants nothing to do with the OC. And tells people he only has one child. Ours. He is a loving and devoted husband and father to our son, he just made a mistake before we were married. I have not issued any ultimatums about contact with OC, but he knows that it is either us or her. I can barely handle the whole issue, but then to be forced to accept the child into my home, I couldn't do it. I have so much respect for the women that can, but I will not. Maybe, when we get older (we are 23) he will change his mind. I hope not. But I will have to go through these issuses then

Dear lsb,<BR>First, let me say that I completely understand where you are coming from in not wanting to ever have contact with oc. I don't blame you one bit for that. So please don't think that because I am choosing to have contact with oc that it means that I don't completely respect your position.<P>Second, let me say that (once again) K is absolutely right on target with his advice. If you want to save your marriage you need to have a counselor whose main focus is saving the marriage. if you can't afford the Harley's (I can't right now, although I would love to) find somebody who is willing to work using their material. There is no point at all in going to marriage counseling if the counselor you have doesn't firmly believe that the marriage can be saved. If you want somebody to tell you to get a divorce, you could just ask any stranger on the street to do that. But if you're going to pay somebody to help you salvage your marriage, they damn well better know how to do it.<P>I guess what you have to remember is that right now, if indeed you see anything worth saving in the marriage, you need to concentrate on just that. Put the whole oc issue on the back burner. I know that sounds like an impossible task, but really, if you can't save the marriage, the issue with the oc won't matter to you anyway. If you CAN save the marriage, then the oc issue can be dealt with sometime in the future. You have to make sure you're not in one of those situations where you cant see the forest for the trees. So I would suggest:<BR>1. Find a new counselor pronto<BR>2. Ask your h to agree to put the oc issue aside for a set time period - say 6 months - during which the two of you concentrate SOLELY on repairing the marriage. When the time limit has passed, you both will have a better idea of what you want to do.<BR>cdcollins

Jessry and CDcollins, I understand what you both suggest. My husband says he does not want to discuss the OC till I am better and we are doing better. Implicit though, is that at some point he will be able to see OC. I know it is possible I could change my mind about this, but right now I do not see that. In 6 months, I do not see myself changing my mind about this. I see years down the road I may relent-and in the meantime, he waits, stewing for my decision to change. I see no need to do that.,to work on relationship and feel like we are together when our basic premise of marriage is contingent on us being honest with each other about what bothers us and matters to us. WE have been together for 25 years, plus,. and this is so base a violation of what we have built as a life together that I do not see me changing. In the depth of my soul, I feel that-even though I know many of you have changed your minds about the OC over time. I know myself. I do not see the therapist encouraging us to split, but acknowledging our basic dilemna-she in facts sees how strong we both feel about this. My H did not initially want child, but now that he does he feels he has to father it. I want no part in that, no part in him doing that without us. I feel for him to do that, he will ruin my life with our two kids, something he has already done by having affair and being reckless with contraception. In our case, the OW claimed no contraception for religious reasons,a s well as no abortion, yet how does she explain having sex with a committed married man whose kids she has known? I feel no love toward her or child,do not feel I can change my feelings. Additionally, she didn't have kids, was in mid 30's to late 30's when became pregnant, I think decided she wanted kid at all costs, despite pain it would cost my family and h, and did that. Now he has bonded to child, I understand that, can actually understand him needing to have contact, but I cannot allow him to do it at my expense.Contact with OC is so threatening to me-I do not believe he will reconnect with OW, but the whole issue violates me,a nd I cannot feel good about it. NOt now, not ever. In Harley;s method, of POJA, what happens when you cannot enthusiastically agree on a point-like issue of contact/no contact. Do you wait and see what happens? That is what I need to know.OUr therapist is very expensive,feel I have to pay money to heal, but wonder if Harley's would have different thoughts.And for those of you who wanted no contact at outset and now years later still do not, did any have H who wanted contact and stilldo??HOw do they handle it? Please let me know.

lsb,<BR>I just wanted you to know I understand where your coming from. So sorry that I have no. answers I didnt know about the oc until 6 months after I had learned about the cheating. Then I had 3 more to deal with if it was h. To have this all heaped upon you at the same time has got to be terrible. I have had so much resentment towards h for lieing to me about ow being preg that between what you and gem have been going through I can see now that was for the best. Could you maybe call the Harleys and see what they have to say. It makes it so much harder when there is a oc involved. When I thought it was just the cheating I had to forgive it seemed like nothing compared to when a preg and oc was thrown into this and I had 6 months time in between and it still almost killed me. lsb I hope you find the answers you are looking for soon Im so sorry I cant be of any help. I just want you to know I am thinking about you.with love flowerseed

Flowerseed, thanks for your thoughts.It does mean a lot,but who indeed does have answers? This is so tough.The affair would be so much easier to heal from, it holds much less threat to me than OC. This morning H says he will give up child for me and rebuilding us,and will have to deal with his feelings about this. I wish I could feel good about that, but I do not.Because I remember in therapist's office he saying he couldn't live with himself down road doing that.So if that happens, what kind of life will we have together and with kids? I am so scared of all this, really want no one to know of all this , have told no family or friends and god give me strength to keep it that way. It is that awful for me I cannot let anyone know. I worry OW will call inlaws and tell them-we think she has their phone number, and that would be so mean. If that happens,secret will be out and not secret anymore. Well, I intend to protect my kids from the mistake my husband has made. HOw do you heal from the mistake our husbands have made?what works and makes it better between you and them? My h and I have had our problems, but nothing like this. He has always been a considerate, thoughtful, responsible, and actually conservative man.This person who did this to me I do not know, and frankly I do not know if he knows him or not.He has no mental disorder, isn't an alcoholic, is well educated, has a good job, I am not a fat slob-actually, quite attractive and thin. I feel sick our marriage must have been so unhappy for him, at least sexually, he found himself in this place to do this.Now I realize no solution is good for me-leaving him means destroying the home my kids really rely on and thrive in, living with him means we have to come to some decision about OC we can live with and I still deal with it daily as OC gets the 1200 a month in Child support, I hate that too. Divorce doesn't make me happy either. This is a real mess. I hate being here, never thought I would be in this place, yet here I am. How does one heal with one's husband? Any suggestions?

Dear lsb,<BR>Oh honey, I really feel for you. My gosh I remember these feelings. Unfortunately for me I had no computer at this time and had no idea that there were actually others like me.<P>My H also felt he had to be daddy to this kid he had never seen. Ow's own words backfired on her though bc she had told him when he was away from me and our baby that our daughter was too young to know whether he was there or not...so when she cried to him about oc not having daddy there he would echo her own damning words back to her. But he did feel he had to be daddy when kid was older. Her we are and oc is 1 1\2 and we have no contact at all. So he can change his mind. But he also has never met oc.<P>I was a wreck too, but I wanted her child to come to my house and absolutly LOVE me. like me better that her. That was my goal. Oc would tell mom one day that she wanted to live with ME and have the ultimate revenge! Is that psycho, or what? Oh well.<P>I guess that is how I dealt with it. Our big disagreement was that he felt he had to be "friends" with ow for oc's sake. I didnt see how that helped considering he and I couldnt manage to be friends bc we were always fighting over ow and their phone calls. It really was a mess.<P>I do agree with K about contacting the Harleys and cd had a gooe idea about putting situation on backburner for a while. You said your H said he would be willing to give up contact for you but that also makes you unhappy. Lsb, I think right now you are still so angry that it wont matter what he does you will still be angry and that is ok. Just dont make any rash desicions. My therapist told me when I first went (h wouldnt go) that it seemed people had an idea that either they got along and were perfectly married or they had to be seperated (ie divorced) and that just isnt the case. He told me that I had to work on me. Improve myself and my own self worth. H wasnt doing it, but I was worth it so I did it for myself. I got my own job, made my own $, and it worked! I felt better about myself. I know you already work, but it is the same concept. do something for you. Build yourself back up.<P>Recognize also what your H is offering to you. He obviously loves you very much if he is saying he will give up oc. He is making a peace offering. I say take it and work on you and your marriage. Worry about oc later.<P>I could be wrong, but you are still in the beginnings of this, right? It seems H (at least mine did) have this warped reality at this time in the situation. My H actually had the thought (that ow ahd fed to him) that we would be transfered to Germany. Ow would put in for Germany and her and I would take kids to the park together. HELLO! Was he crazy? The answer would be "YES"! Just letting you know that they go through crazy thoughts to. I guess they get desperate too.<P>Anyway, I hope you find what works for you. I will say a prayer for you.<P>Love and Prayers<P>broken_wings<p>[This message has been edited by broken_wings (edited March 31, 2001).]

Broken,<BR> I have the same exact "revenge" planned for "if" I have to let OC in our lives. Of her liking me bc I'm "so much cooler" than her real mom. You know, stuff like that. I'd let her do all the "bad" things "her mom" would never let her do. HAHA Maybe oneday.............who knows.

Just a thouht, Isb, does your H really have feelings for child or is he just feeling obligated?<BR> It sounded to me he felt an obligation to the child. If that's the case, is he really doing what is best for all concerned? By parenting the OC due to obligation, there has to be some negativity there. When he parents his children with you, there would also be some guilt. How can this be healthy for all children involved? Seems to me he needs to let OC go, and concentrate on the children of marriage, esp if he wishes to have a marriage. If the marriage dissolves, he will be half-parent to all of them. He needs to put some child/children first, to me those are your children and you. The OC is the mother's child, if she wants the OC to have two parents let her put OC up for adoption.<BR> Just my opinion, for what it's worth. Two cents, maybe <BR>TG

Dear lsb,<BR>I'm so sorry for all the pain you are going through.<BR>I understand your deep fears of not wanting anyone finding out-<BR>those were my first thoughts. I felt for a time that<BR>as long as no one finds out that we could deal with it.<BR>She lives close to us with her own h and family.<BR>I still dont know why she didnt leave well enough alone.<P>I know what you mean by not being happy about any<BR>decision your H makes because the whole situation stinks.<BR>I see that you've been together a long time. I'm sure<BR>your H felt moral obligation to the oc and may realize <BR>the best for all is to let ow move on and find a stepdad.<BR>Stepdads can and do a great job!<P>Sorry I dont have any advice - Ive only been married 2+ yrs<BR>and this is how we started. Ive known for 9 mos and have<BR>begun to feel better. I still want my family together.<BR>The demons do fade with time. Take good care. <BR>

I agree with Texasgirl<BR>Why do these ow want to put their children through this???<BR>what kind of self esteem wil they grow up knowing where they came from<BR>i believe adoption is the best solution esp. when they want cs they take from our families<BR>Obviously these women dont care much about any of the children involved<BR>they just want trouble and money!!!<BR>I dont think these men should be financially responsible for one night stands or whatever the guy really gets the bad end of the deal<BR>and now everybody loses

Dear LSB,<BR>I just read your post. Im trying to read as much as possible. Well anyways, I was wondering did you just find out? Your pain and anger were just yelling at me as i read. My heart goes out to you. I recently found out and I too think Im heading for divorce. I havent changed my mind today. I just think I want peace and understanding. My H is wonderful man. People think the world of him. Ive only told a few people in fear of how they would treat H. If there is OC, then Ill have to tell everyone. I think the hardest thing will be trying to explain to my 4 year old son!!! But i think he should hear it from H and myself. I also have all this, what was anger, know disappointment. Hatred is know fear. I just dont know why...I mean i KNOW WHY, BUT THATS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME. I would have never cheated on H. We ve been married 8 yeras. and Im pretty sure divorce is for me. Ive been praying for some peace in my heart...I do feel better everyday. But I also feel fake to the outside world. Ill just tell you what everyone tells me...Dont do anything, make any decisions, until youve calmed down. I will be praying for you. I hope by know you what u will be doing for self. I love this site!! God Bless everyone. Good Day All

ISB-<BR>In case H's desire for contact is out of obligation as Jenny suggested(or maybe selfish desire/pride, not out of worry for OC) I copied some a post I made under another thread to give H something to think about:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>H and I decided none except that it would clearly show OC what he/she is missing--like all those 'little things'..recently on this board was a story oh OC's resentment of half-siblings, etc. that grew from such a situation. <P>that's why H and I feel a 'relationship' would cause more harm than good for OC (not to mention our kids-we seperated the catagories by effect on OC and effect on ours, within OC catagory, we only considered their effect on OC) We feel that OC would grow up more 'well-adjusted' (for lack of a better word) without the intrusion..<P>of course that depends on XOW not telling OC 'daddy didn't want you' and if questions are asked, 'he couldn't be the daddy you deserved'<P>some(XOW) may think OC is missing out on siblings,etc. well if OC doesn't know of them, what is he/she missing in his/her mind, same with the father. <P>forcing contact(XOW or H), especially when there's so many physical/emotional barriers in 'the good of the child' may in fact do more harm than good, in OC's emotional well-being is truely what's kept as most important.<P>we all come to different conclusions is the search within our souls for 'what is the right thing to do' and this is where I/we ended up. And this is just the 'OC' side, the effects on our kids would be a tale all to its own<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My prayers are with you<P>

I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with oc, h tried to but (behind my back)realized that it would not work, he was bored and felt no bond( kid turned 5 yesterday)h thinks that our family is far more important than oc, Men are very strange they think they can hide things from you but I knew what he was doing, made my feelings quite clear and he decided on his own to stop especially when he realized that ow cared more about him spending time with her than with her kid (sick woman) I do not know if this helps you or not but if my h decides he wants contact I will leave and take my kids that is what I would do

Isb,<BR>just want you to know K has been here a Long Time and really has such great advice. I hope you follow up with another counselor, the Harleys or one with lots experience on affairs/OC! I think it's too soon to act (ie divorce); you can always do that later, but it's hard to back up once you get the big D rolling.

Jenny, an update: we are no longer heading to divorce. H has agreed to not see OC forever, after painful discussions in therapy and outside of therapy.He realized the depth of his loss if he continued to ask to see OC would be the loss of our marriage and our children on a daily basis. He still worries he may lose me, as I am still grieving the loss of the life we had and the life we now have to deal with. He said yesterday,as we took a walk, I have not been doing too well as I have been depressed, and I asked what about,and he said I still think I could lose you, and I told him he had lost some of me-he knows what he has done has changed the way I feel toward him. And I am trying to work through that. I know I cannot keep being angry at him for his mistake, and need to move on, but it is still very hard for me.The opposite, though, of not having him in my life at all is also too painful to think about. I told him yesterday I am giving myself a year to see that my anger gets less and I can recommit to him-if it does not improve, maybe I should not stay with him, as that would be damaging to both our lives.Right now, in couples counseling, we are still dealing with some of my anger but since we have agreed to work on our marriage, therapist thinks I need to find another outlet for that-maybe individual therapy of my own if we could affor it- and use the couples counseling as a way to heal us and get closer, as my anger and rage keeps husband away and he says it makes it hard for him to feel loving and romantic to me. I know you and your H worked hard to regain your love. How did you get past the anger at H for doing this? WHat worked for you? I think the other thing I am grieving is the life we had is gone forever-and I am left with the life we had now which I never wanted a part of and had no say in creating.As heavenly said in one posting, she had to accept this is the life I have been dealt with and move on. I am not sure how to do that-any ideas would be welcome.

ISB...I warned you that if you force someone to agree to something they didn't want it would just backfire on you. He sees his DAUGHTER. Regularly. He loves her. He does love you and want you, but you can't force a man to sacrifice his child.

Apparantly, though, one CAN force a man to sacrifice his common sense and good taste, at least briefly.