I have been reading the posts here lately and am puzzled by the lack of caring towards the Other Child I hear on this board. My experience in this area comes as a foster parent and as a child who did not have a relationship with my father. My ex husband also had cheated on me although no children were conceived.<P>I understand the deep pain most of you are suffering however I think more important are the children and the pain they are and will suffer. Your husbands and this women BOTH chose to lay down together and create this child. BOTH have the ethical and moral obligation to care for this child. Financial support is obvious but most important is emotional. This children need fathers and their father IS your husband. If the husband in the situation didn't want that responsibility he shouldn't have laid down with the woman. But he did and now he needs to grow up and take responsibility, PERIOD. <P>I feel that this is so imperitive because if these men get away with not being held accountable for the EMOTIONAL upbringing of these children, then as a society we have passed on a message that it is ok to abandon our children and be irresponsible. And then these children grow up with that message and go out and do the same. <P>I know that most of you will be offended by my posting and I am sorry as I know how painful your experience is, however think how painful it is for the child, who has done nothing wrong and has no understanding of the situation.<P>So please if you decide to stay with your spouse and forgive your spouse, then try just try to open your heart to that child, who will probably need a stable moral and ethical adult in her life (and since we know both the mother and father weren't maybe you are the only hope for that). I know this is a lot to bear when your going through all this, but please think of the child. <P>Best Wishes

My H is a moral and ethical human being who made one<BR>mistake. He had no intention of creating an innocent life<BR>when he so stupidly took the op up on HER offer.<BR>Ultimately, it is the woman's decision, PERIOD!<BR>How about all the unborn children who were wanted by<BR>the fathers' but the mothers' were not ready for the<BR>responsibility? Where are their rights?<BR>It truly makes me sick when people jump the gun and<BR>defend all these innocent children before finding<BR>out each and every fact that goes with each of our<BR>stories. Besides we were all babies at one point and<BR>we grow up, life is not a fairy tale, it can be full<BR>of pain. <BR>So as long as the alleged fathers take financial <BR>responsibility than the world is a better place?!<BR>I dont think so. Even kids growing up in 2 parent<BR>homes are not guarenteed a life of luxury.<BR>There are problems no matter how you look at it.<BR>How about the woman's personal responsibility?<BR>Only we know our bodies and when we are MOST LIKELY<BR>to get pregnant, I'd never expect some guy to know<BR>more about my "cycle" than I do.<BR>Yes, I wish my H had used a condom, or better yet<BR>not make the mistake in the first place but things<BR>happen and WE ALL make mistakes.<BR>You forget that there are more innocent victims besides<BR>the oc, there are wives, their children, extended <BR>families, etc. None of which were ever considered in<BR>the decision that would bring ONLY pain.<BR>Yes im all for abortion when these are the circumstances.<BR>Ask the children in a Romanian orphanage if they are<BR>glad they were born.<BR>As far as emotional responsibility, in our case the op<BR>is married and raising the child as her H yet still <BR>wants to be compensated for being a wh**e. Personally,<BR>if the op would give us full custody, then we would<BR>raise the child w/out financial help from the mother.<BR>But that would be too unselfish of her so that's not<BR>an option. And how would it be beneficial to that child<BR>to go thru life knowing my h never wanted it and is<BR>disgusted by his mistake? I dont get your reasoning <BR>since you havent been in our shoes, how can you tell<BR>us what we should do?<BR>There are many wonderful people here in the worst pain<BR>of their lives, some have accepted visitation, others<BR>can not nor will ever accept visitation. That is the<BR>price the ow/op has to pay. They can explain to the<BR>child what they did and why "daddy" doesnt want to <BR>be involved. We all know that having sex does not<BR>instantly bond two people together for life.<BR>Good luck to you, too.<p>[This message has been edited by fluke (edited April 12, 2001).]

Lurking Woman,<BR>First, please allow me to clarify that my h and i are seeking visitation/custody of the oc. It is the ow that does not want to give h the opportunity to participate in oc's life. Her primary concern is getting as much money as posssible from my h, while denying his rights to see his child. So, we are in the middle of litigation over that.<P>Although I am willing and able to accept and love the oc, I fully support the women here who are not. I, too, work with foster children and my career in general has been focused on helping troubled and abused youth. I have seen the damage done to children whose primary caregivers are not fully dedicated to raising them. I think that it is this background that in part enables me to really "see" the oc as an innocent child. or perhaps it is just the grace of God.<P>Since you are a foster parent, you must have seen firsthand the miracle of successful adoptions. A true family is not always created through blood ties, fathers are not created via sperm. And you must also know the emotional pain and distress a child has when it is unable to grow up in a stable two parent home. In most cases, would it not be better for all involved if the ow would either give the child up for adoption, or marry a man who is willing to be the child's real daddy? I think that your intentions are probably good, but I think you may not have considered the devastating effect "part-time" parenting can have on a child. If the wife is not able to accept the oc into her life, for whatever reason, it is much more beneficial for the child not to be involved with the father on any level.<P>The desire to parent a child cannot and should not be forced on anyone - the results of forced parentage are horrifying. Far too often in these cases, the man did not wish or desire to father a child by the ow. Far too often, the man did not have any options available to him regarding the child's future. I know my h would have insisted that the child be given up for adoption. That would have been what was best for THE CHILD in the long run.<P>And (please know that I am trying to put this as kindly as possible) although your h cheated on you, and you obviously know the pain of betrayal, it is impossible to know how you would react to being in this situation. It is undoubtably true that God does not give any of us more than we can bear, but until you have bourn another's burden, you cannot know the weight of it.<P>With regards,<BR>cd

We have heard your argument before and I doubt any discussion now will change anyone's mind, but it could unfortunately start flames. People, please don't freak out!<P>I too think men should take responsibility for their offspring, but if they already HAVE a family, they are in no position to 'play daddy' like a single or divorced man!! They have a marriage in crisis and children of the marriage to whom they owe their full remorse and energy or that union will not last and another family is destroyed!<P>Do you understand that???????? Q:Was your father a married (to someone else) man???? <P>The child of adultery is not wanted and better off given up for adoption to a grateful infertile couple! It is the MOTHER'S choice to keep it (some gleefully so) knowing full well the sad circumstances. Most married men would give the OC up for adoption if they could but the laws are not such. If the married man's family can handle him having visitation like a prior-marriage step-child (some do), then God bless em!!!! Unfortunately for the child, many cannot, for many reasons. It is better if the mother can find a decent man to marry and play dad. Often the biomother is a very dysfunctional person who cannot be reasonable. We've heard some real "doozies" here, including women who purposely get pregnant by married men for the $$.<P>I agree some children of adultery will be irresponsible, not only because of their absent fathers, but because their mothers are immature (even nasty) people. The courts aren't likely to give custody to the father unless serious abuse can be proven, and most of us are not willing to fight the XOW that hard for a child whose birth destroyed so much of our family life. We want these yucky women OUT of our lives, and the kid is usually a package deal.<P>My H and I are in the minority on this board who are open to visitation with OC, but we never live nearby again as it would destroy us and I will not allow my H solo long distance to spend time there (get real!). Further, if future contact with OC is a bad influence on my children, it will have to stop. Child support is the only sure thing she will get. If you have a better solution, I'd like to hear it!<BR> <BR>It is a sad sad sad reality. Before you point fingers, walk a mile in our shoes. In my case, the XOW was a "friend" of mine who knew darn well what she was doing to my family: ugly!

<BR>LurkingWoman,<P>You've already seen a few poignant posts, but allow me to add some additional information on the "child support" issue. <P>"Child support" is calculated in most states via a system called income shares. The income shares model indirectly estimates the cost of children by estimating adult consumption patterns of alcohol, tobacco, and adult clothing! You read that correctly: Child support amounts are based on how many cigarettes adults smoke. For reasons that I could explain at length, this preposterous approach grossly overestimates the actual cost involved in raising children.<P>A separate approach using cost shares based on direct expenses, and counting all tax benefits as disposable income (which, of course, it is), estimates that the average "child support" amount is roughly DOUBLE what it should be. To anyone in this forum with children who is saddled with a "child support" sentence, this is precisely why the amount seems so ridiculous. The fact is, the amount you are paying *is* ridiculous. People with children KNOW its ridiculous because they are paying the direct expenses themselves and KNOW what those expenses are.<P>The law of unintended consequences leads us to the point where women can guarantee themseleves a fat hidden alimony check, courtesy of the child support enforcement office, simply by having a [censored] child of some hapless fool. Because women win 85% of contested custody cases, the odds of a money-grubbing OW losing the child are very low. Its a win-win for her.<P>Now, how would you feel about sending that hidden alimony check every month, when those very dollars mean your children will do without? Wouldn't it grate you to the core to know that your children will be lucky to afford the nearby community college while the [censored] child rapes your husband for a free ride to state university (did I forget to mention? Some states can ORDER a father to pay for college tuition)? How would it feel shopping at a rummage sale knowing that the [censored] shops at KidGap on your nickel? Generosity is one thing, I suppose, but why should children of the marriage be treated as second class citizens? And trust me, "its an innocent child" is only going to be slapped with "it was an innocent spouse." <P>The solutions are pretty simple. We need to base "child support" on a cost shares model. We need to create a presumption of joint 50% physical custody. When OWs face a 50/50 chance of losing custody and having themselves nailed to the "child support" cross, we'll see a lot fewer OCs being born and raised by OWs.<P>Bystander<BR>

Bystander,<BR>Just wanted to say how much I do love to hear you go on...<P>Are you a lawyer? probably everybody else here knows your story, but I don't. I just know that you are connected to catnip some way or another.<P>cdcollins

Lurking woman,<P>By the way, in rereading your post, I noticed that you say that the oc's pain is much more important than the betrayed spouse's pain. As such, I am wondering if there is an age limit wherein one human's worth automatically diminishes? This is not meant to be argumentative, but I have noticed a lot of people who stand up for delinquent youths that find criminal adults to be reprehensible.<P>How about when the oc turns 18. At that point, will the pain he/she suffers be roughly equal in worth to the pain of the betrayed spouse?<P>Just wondering...<BR>cdcollins

<BR>cd,<P>Thanks for the compliment! That *was* a compliment, right? I do get a little worked up by the issue, I'll admit.<P>I'm not a lawyer. I work as a statistician, actually!<P>Bystander

Bystander,<P>It was meant as the very highest of compliments!<P>How did you meet catnip?<P>A statician, eh? So, really, what are the chances that our ow will meet an untimely end in the next couple months? Can't be more than, like, a billion to one, right?<P>cd

Bravo, Bystander!!!! I, like CD do love it when you so eloquently tell these people who are not in the same situation what it is really about! They really should hold off on these judgement posts until they have walked in the shoes of those living this horror!<P>Again, Bravo!!!<P>Tigger

I also enjoy your posts, Bystander!<BR>thanks!

Lurking Woman,<BR>You posted **** Your husbands and this women BOTH chose to lay down together and create this child***<BR>I have posted this before but I wanted to post it again for your benefit<P>1. He decided to have an affair.<BR>2. He decided to have unprotected sex.<BR>I hold him responsible for both of those decisions each and every day. Now let me tell you about the decisions she made.<BR>1. She decided to sleep with a married man.<BR>2. She decided to have unprotected sex.<BR>3. She decided to lie about being on the pill.( confirmed by a friend of hers)<BR>4. She decided to buy a fertility test to determine when she could get pregnant. ( also confirmed by a friend of hers )<BR>5. After the affair ended she decided not to tell my H she was pregnant. ( She knew what he would have said )<BR>6. She decided to keep this child and not put it up for adoption without any input from H. ( Again she knew what he would have said )<BR>7. 18 months after OC was born she decided to have someone call me and tell me all about it so she could jump on the cs gravy train.<BR>Now I know my H played his part and like I said I hold him responsible . But who does it look like was doing all the decision making to you ?<BR>And there is one more thing I would like to add. The entire time this whore was screwing my H she knew that we had 2 children. She knew that if I found out about A there was a chance that I would leave my H. She knew the emotional damage that would do to my children. Did she give a rats as* ??!! NO!!!!! Now you have the nerve to tell me how I should have so much concern for that [censored] kid of hers ????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <BR>Lack of caring, that is an understatement. <P>Jtigger<P>

jtigger,<BR>just wanted to say that i have read that post before, but this time I am printing it out to keep. <P>You make a great point. Everybody is always soooo concerned about being fair to the oc. Nobody ever asks "What is most fair to the children of the marriage?" I would like for somebody to think about MY children's well-being for a change.<P>with love,<BR>cd

bystander,<BR>I to say Bravo clap clap clap very well said! tigger I to remember this from before I'm going to print it out also. Actually I liked all your replies way to go boys and girls.with love flowerseed<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder.

Okay Lurking woman, check this out...my h has been trying for over two years to see the oc whom he has never met but is supporting at 100.00 per week. The mother as denied all contact but has sucked the money in for over two years. After close to two years of court crap and over 2,000.00 in lawyer fees he has finally met his child. Now after 2 months of visitation asks for a couple of more hours and is denied by the mother. The mediator is asked to help but he only gets one extra hour. His visitation is on sundays and she also took away easter, other's day and one other day. So his only 3 hours a week were increased to 4 but he lost 12 in the whole fight get it. So ask yourself this who cares about the emotional well being of the child my h or the mother. She sure likes the $ but even went so far in the fight over the last 2 years to try and totally terminate his parental rights and ban him any contact but she still wanted the cash to flow. Oh and just as an added fact she would have gladly let him see the child if he would have taken her too. I have gotten into it in the recent past with others who have come here and tried to tell us all how to live our lives. The wonderful people here are all in pain and dealing with it all differently leave them all alone. Get your facts right before you try and judge. The title of your thread is child support/visitation, well my h has been doing the cs end so why the big fight on the visitation. He can not get a break, so why don't you give all of us a break. Gabi1116

fellow forum members, if we ignore these "lurking" most likely OW's in disguise, they will go away. they sit there and love to see us squirm. answering them and trying to help them understand our situations ups and downs, is impossible. i've yet to see one actually here for any real purpose other than to raise our blood pressure. just a suggestion.<P>happy_girl

HG,<BR>I thought this poster was legit until I saw her lousy reply. Looks like we need to get out the Raid again, as flowergirl says!<P>

You all really make me said, you ASSume that anyone who doesn't agree with the hate all be mean to all other women, other children, other people philosophy are other women. Grow up women...YOUR husbands cheated on you. Created a child. And therefore have a responsibility. Stop helping them avoid responsibility.

If you responded to any of the heartfelt posts you got, then we could talk, but you didn't.

This is for lurking woman:<P>I have changed my name. I formally was IN THE SOUTH. I am now GLORY&PRAISE.<P>Like someone said, "walk a mile in my shoes". We on this forum know what our H did, we are not dumb! But we can not and will not let the OW off either. <BR>My H did not have on OC he had two(2). And yes I hold him for this, because he knew that HE was married and he has to step up to the plate and take care of HIS responsibility. Just because our children live with us and the other two do not, does not give the OW the right to request all and get all.<BR>I look at the fact that that OC did not asked to come into this world, but I did not ask my H to go and have an PA with OW and got her pregnant. <BR>LW you forgot one thing, my H did not do this by himself. He had to have a "hole" to go into.<BR>We want the oc's in our lives, the OW finally took them to have the DNA in March. H took his test in January 2000. OW went in March 2001. H has tried to see the boys, but OW makes herself/OC's unavailble.<BR>LW this part of the forum is for spouses in need of help, good comments, etc. Not someone who is going to critize us and say what we should or should not do. <BR>When you spouse and OW have a oc---then come tell us what your feeling are and what is happening with YOU.<BR>Please read some of the old discussion forums, maybe then you will understand.<BR>Glory&Praise.<BR>I will lift up my eyes from which comes my help!