I have been occasionally reading posts, but don't have much time to participate these days. Felt the need to take the time to do so today.<P>First, I originally found this site when I was hurting and looking for answers as to if a marriage could possibly be saved once an OC was in the picture. The OC situation meant that the "no contact" with OW could never be completely invoked. What was the risk I would be assuming in trying to save my marriage if I moved forward. How had other women and men either suceeded or failed? What words of wisdom could I learn from them. And above all... more important than my own issues were the lives of my children. Every action I take has their interests FIRST. I can eat a lot of dirt and admit to a lot of flaws in my marriage and in me, whatever it takes to make their lives whole and happy. I know a lot of folks don't feel that putting children first as an action to keep a marriage together is correct. I feel it is. Not to just live in a terrible marriage, but to work with all my might and effort to analyze that marriage, find the flaws and work to fix them if at all possible. All I wanted to know was would that work be for nothing if the OC situation rendered it moot? If so, I had coices to make about how to move forward. These are the questions I came here to have answered.<P>I have also been very upset that the OW was so careless with HER child. How in the world could a woman bring a child into this world knowing that she had compromised that childs ENTIRE life from the start. She had doomed the OC to no father, or at best, a part-time father. She doomed the OC to less than optimal financial situation and the stigma of not having a father in the house. Yes... there is a stigma and pain associated with that, be it divorce, death, or unwed mother. I see it every day with my childrens friends. Children who do not have fathers who are at ballgames... children who watch the other boys and their fathers with a longing that hurts to the soul. Children who are cheated out of the benefits of two parents in the home. Who have sitters every time the single parent must be away for any reason... grocery store, doctor apointments, etc. They do not have the security of knowing that when mom or dad leaves the house, the other parent will be there. They live with a stressed out mom or dad who tries to be all. And at very best they will have a part-time bio-parent who drops in on occasion. Or worse yet... they will get to visit "Dad" at his home with his "real" family and children. The OC will get to see how those children have a loving home with a mom and dad who love each other and touch, laugh, kiss. The OC will see dad reading bedtime stories and helping with homework. Can anyone not think that the OC will be hurt by what they are NOT getting? How can a mother subject her child to that? <P>I have seen this happen in another household. As most of you know, my brother had an OC and my SIL was very accepting to OC. She brought the OC into their lives. The OC came over to their home and stayed often. It didn't do as much good as you might think. This poor child was resentful of what his half-sister had... a home with OC's dad. These visits were like salt in a wound to that poor child. The happier my brothers home was, the more miserable that OC was. That poor child wanted what he should have been given at birth... two parents in a single home.<P>I consider myself a serious advocate of what is best environment for children. But since the title "advocate" can come in so many shapes and sizes, I will stay away from that term. Let's just say I truely want for EVERY child what is best and I beleive that is a two parent home. The OW has chosen to condem he child to a one parent home. And by her actions of pursueing my H has made a violent attempt to harm my children and destroy their two parent home. She has done all this in ignorance. I am sure of that, since only a terribly evil person would have done these things intentionally. The OW had only her own needs and wants in mind. It is so sad for the OC that this is the person who will be his/her parent. One day OW will have to tell that child how she attached the home and lives of their half-siblings. Some OW did not know the men they were with had a family and children, but far too many of them did. Mine did. She had met my children prior to becoming pregnant. I still cannot beleive that anyone in this whole world would want to cause harm to my children, but she did. And I have to live with the fact that my children's father was a participant in the facts that lead up to the birth of OC. Yes... if he had been smarter, more moral, more honest... if he had been a lot of other things this would not have happened either. So I am left with the decision of which bad situation I will move forward with for the rest of my life. These two people handed that to me jointly, not the OW on her own. <P>This board has been wonderful for me. These women (many now moved on) gave me so much strength and aided me in doing analysis of my own faults, flaws, values, and objectives. I have been here almost a year and I have NEVER heard one remark by any of these women or men that indicates they fault the OC or wish the OC harm. All of you, please know that I respect you so much. We are traveling a path that so few have to go down. And too many that have faced this journey just run the other way and never even try to repair the marriage. They think first of their own pain and pride, not their childrens lives. If you do confide in a friend, neighbor or family member, you get told how stupid you are for staying with this evil terrible man and what a loser you have on your hands. That sure helps things doesn't it? So you finally find this safe board, with other women and men who are in this same situation. People who won't tell you how stupid you are and how evil the father of your children is. People who hold you hand and encourage you in this time of horrible pain and fear. People that give you hope that life can be restored (be it with great effort) back to normal one day. Thank you folks for what you gave me. I hope I can give back to you in the same manner.<P>And to anyone else who is not here to restore a marriage or assist those who are trying to do that, please review your motives and intentions. I am sure you wouldn't want to cause harm and pain intentionally. <P>Take care... Carolyn

Dear Carolyn,<P>I remember you so well from former posts. And, you have said many of the things that I feel in my heart about the OC and about the ability of this forum to support and save people who are in pain and looking for answers.<P>I read under another post that you will be divorcing your H. While that saddens me more than you could know, I know that you have, like the rest of us, given your marriage all of your attention and caring to try to get over this hurdle. It must be a nightmare to have your H work with the OW every day. There is no opportunity to move past the emotional pain and start over again.<P>You sound very determined so I will not ask you, as I often do others, to look deeply into your H's eyes to see if there is love there can be salvaged. I no longer believe that saving my marriage is about winning, it must be about happiness -- your happiness. What use is a marriage when every day is a struggle to be happy?<P>As long as you have thought through your decision, then I am happy for your release from this daily suffering. I have not been on the forum much these days because it has changed a lot and I don't feel that I fit in anymore. But, I know how you feel because every day is still a struggle in some small way. The major pain has gone away, but in its place a these tiny little claws that seem to pull and scratch at you from time to time.<P>You have already given back to so many of us -- your kind and helpful words, sharing your feelings, making us all feel welcome and part of this family. We were part of a group of strangers that met and clung to each other for support when the seas were rough. That core of strength has enabled many of us to go forward, find what we want for ourselves and go after it.<P>Ironically, for me, my marriage has never been better. But God has chosen this precise moment to bring a former love back into my life. Now, I am being tested, just like my H was. He lost his battle with temptation and I feel that I may do the same. But I also know that this longing to have an A is tied in with the suffering, recriminations and self-loathing from these years of dealing with the OW/OC issue.<P>It is a damned wonderful compliment for someone to see me as a desirable woman and to be in love with me for myself, not trying to save a family or keep a house. I have not acted on my desires yet and I know that I am starting on a dangerous path so I am trying to be cautious. My H is very loving and attentive these days -- that makes it worse. <P>I am afraid of the consequences for my marriage and my children. But, you know, Carolyn, I have been the martyr for so long -- swallowing my feelings, trying to rebuild my marriage, giving, giving, giving all the time. I feel like I want to take something for myself just once. <P>This whole ordeal changes you forever. In some ways I am a better person, but in some ways there is a meanness and cynicism in me that I know will never go away. <P>I wish you every happiness for the future. I pray for the happiness of all of us who have struggled with this issue.<P>love,<BR>heavenly

Heavenly I am so glad to hear from you! I know you have fought a very good fight also to keep your life intact and to uphold the values that you have in regard to marriage, children and family. I still hold all those same values. But I just cannot deal with the relationship that my H has with OW. They have always had contact and he will not agree to allow me into that circle of contact. He still claims to be only in contact with her because he fears she will cause him harm at his job. But he admits he is still sleeping with her and has spent the night over there several times in the past few months. Those are things that I just do not ever want my children to know that I put up with. Maybe one day he will pull himself together. And maybe I will still be around. But in the interium I will be out of this daily hurt and suspicion. I truly understand what a good Plan B is about now. It really is to keep the BS from getting so drained. I am drained. I didn't put my foot down soon enough and Plan B well enough.<P>I can so very much understand what you mean about the unexpected attention from another man and how overwhelming that can be. When you are filled with love and happiness, there just isn't any place for other people to creep in. But when there is such a dry barren spot in your life where love and attention should be, it is so easy to be swayed. It isn't about getting even. I definately understand that. It really is about just wanting so badly to be happy and in love. Those two things are hard to recapture in a sea of pain and hurt. You do get tired of holding your head just above water don't you? <P>As always, just know the truth about yourself. Once you can truthfully admit to you why you are doing things and all the possible outcomes, then I think the right decisions are made. Perhaps you could use this time to search out what is still missing in your relationship with your H. I would just hope that you resolve where you are at with your marriage before opening up any other doors. You deserve that. God knows you do not need your H or anyone else having the opportunity to turn any of this back on you. You deserve a good happy life. I think that phrase has been a hard one for me to beleive about myself... that I deserve a good happy marriage. I really want that. And I want my children to have a good happy life. How do you end up with all those things accomplished with a man (my H in my case) in the middle of it all that seems to care less about those things happening? Oh well... I am starting to ramble. <P>Please take care of you. I trust you will and that your decisions in life will always be well thought out and considered. With love... Carolyn <BR>

Dear Carolyn,<P>The words "You do get tired of holding your head just above water don't you?" leaped off the page at me in your response.<P>I have been in that "holding" mode for so long that, even though my marriage is better now, the ordeal has taken its toll.<P>Carolyn, I don't blame you one bit for your decision to divorce. If your H has still be sleeping with the OW periodically, there was no chance for the two of you to make it together. My marriage has only survived because of the immediate re-commitment of my H to the sanctity of our marriage. And, even with that, there have been times when we did not think that we would make it through.<P>So, if your H could not re-commit exclusively to you and your children, then I completely understand your decision. <BR>We do deserve to be happy and although you may not want to hear this right now, there will be someone else for you.<BR>This is my second marriage. I lost my first husband, who was my high school sweetheart, shortly after we married. I never thought I would get over his death, let alone marry again. But, I met my H and even with his faults, I still believe he is my soul mate. You will find happiness again because your heart is open to finding it.<P>I have already received some very good advice since posting my "almost affair". And, I am thinking everything through very carefully. And I thank you for reminding me that I should resolve the issues in my marriage before I go into other relationships. You inadvertently made me ask myself a very important question. If my marriage is so much better, why I am really entertaining the attention of this other man? Perhaps there are issues that are still unresolved -- issues which my H and I overlooked.<P>That is food for thought and I will be thinking about that over the coming weeks.<P>Thank you, Carolyn.<BR>love,<BR>heavenly<BR>

I just wanted to raise this back up to top. There are a lot of newcomers on this board right now and you need to know that for the most part, this board has been dedicated to showing support and answering the questions of other women fighting the same challenge you are fighting. We have all felt the same pain. Hopefully we can share thoughts and help you with how we have survived. <P>Occasionally this board has become side tracked with various other debates (OW, child support laws, etc.). But for the most part it is dedicated to helping you work through the MB Principles and deploy a plan that can help you regain your marriage and actually build it to a better place than it was prior to your current situation. I think most of us agree, there were some cracks of flaws either in our marriages or within the personalities of our spouses. The point is, you can survive this and rebuild and even get better than before. It is worth the effort, especially if you have children who need their family intact and functioning. <P>I will not try to claim that you can just "fix" things and that is it. As you can tell, many of us still have some issues that haunt us. <P>A little quote... "We never know the timber of a man's soul until something cuts into him deeply and brings the grain out strong". <P>You ladies and men who are here trying to repair your marriages and/or support others who are attempting that goal have deep, strong grain. Character that stands the test of time. Character that makes it easy to live with yourself and not feel that you have to be defensive about your actions in life. Always be aware of that. <P>Take care... Carolyn

takingcare~ glad to see you! what a wonderful post. thanks. i too am sorry you are divorcing your husband, but agree that your happiness is very important, to you, your children and your sanity. heavenly gave you great advice so i won't repeat things she already said. i do hope you keep coming here to continue to share your thoughts and advice, which you have always done so well. prayers and hugs for you.<P>heavenly~ keep strong! you are in my prayers.<P>happy_girl

Heavenly & Happygirl... thank you both for your thoughts and wishes. This board has been such a special place for me to come and post. It saddens me to see folks so distracted with issues other than recovery. I just want this place to stay as a welcome place for women and men who are so much in pain over the horror they have found themselves in. I just recall the overwhelming sense of awe and relief when I first found this sight a year ago and read the histories of women who has survived this nightmare. It was the first glimmer of hope that I had for myself and my children. I knew it was not going to be easy, but at least there was a glimmer of hope that it was possible. There was someone out there that would answer my questions and understand my pain. I just hope that other people coming to this board in the past few days have not been turned off by the distraction that is going on.<P>One thing that strikes me as curious... perhaps one of you will have a thought on it. What do people come to this board for if they are not seeking help or answers? Why come here if you just think you are going to enlighten some one as to your own version of the "truth"? Odd isn't it?<P>Take care... Carolyn <BR>

This is such a super thread I think it should go back to the top.<P>All the best.<BR>--HBC

HBC thanks for bringing this back up. I had missed takingcare's last response and question about why people who are not looking for help come here to give their versin of the truth.<P>Takingcare, I do have a view on why they do it. <P>This board is for people who are doing everything in their power to save their marriages, the most sacred bond there is between two people. Children are terribly important, but the marriage/relationship came before the children and they flow from that bond.<P>OWs are truly hurt when they see that THEY are the ones that have been misled by men like our Hs. They really believed the lines that they were fed. Lies -- most of them. MMs told them anything they wanted to hear just to get them to have sex. And when they saw that the relationship was not going anywhere they resorted to trying to force the hand by adding an innocent child into the mix.<P>Even now, many of them are holding out hope that the MM will still leave their wives and make a new family with them. When they hear the kinds of things that our Hs have to say about them it bursts the bubble they are living in and they may feel they need to retaliate against us.<P>Most of us knew that something was not right when the A was going on and we can look right into our spouses' eyes and know whether the commitment is there or not. <P>I feel sorry for some OWs because they were lied to. Others got basically what they deserved because they deliberately set out to destroy a family. But, the sad truth is that for the great majority of us on this board, the OWs did not get our Hs and never will have them. For them to finally come face to face with this knowledge is probably a bitter pill to swallow -- one that makes them spew venom our way.<P>I feel sorry for them and I simply do not listen to their rhetoric. As I said in another post, my plate is so full these days that I no longer mind that they grabbed a few crumbs.<P>love,<BR>heavenly<BR>