I don't know if many of you read my post but I realized after reading a couple of posts I was writing in the wrong place. Recap, I am pregnant by my H and he want me to have an abortion or give baby up for adoption or he will leave me and his other kids. Well the reason I am posting today is because can't believe all the things going on, on this forum.<P>My husband has cheated on me previously so I have been a betrayed spouse, but never have had to deal with the OC situation, so I cant say I know who hurt you people are. I can say that being a BS I know that kind of pain, and it can tear your heart and soul. I am so distrubed by all the bickering that has been going on on this bored. I am hoping that everyone can get a grip and get back to helping each other heal. I do believe everyone a right to an oponion, but should be very careful in how they express themselves, especially to people in pain. I can truelly understand both sides of this debate. I feel that the BS has every right to be angry and hurt and want to protect there family. I also feel that children should be considered carefully. It is really hard for me to phathom how a BS can take this kind of situation with out losing their minds.<P>Know I want to talk about the other side of the coin. The two women who have been posting on this forum about childrens rights, I can also agree with you. Children are so important in our society and I believe that they need to be protected no matter what. no child should be consider better than another, but that they are all children of the world that need to be protected. Everyone puts there own childrens need first and that is natural, but I don't ever think that childrens needs should be protected. I think the reason that you women got blasted was because of the tone you came with! You cant tell someone who is hurting and is in pain what you think is best for them to do. Everyone first instinct is self-preservation, when I say I mean what is there is what they look out for. <P>Nobody is wrong in what they feel but I think that that is a decision that needs to be made by each individual. Usually after they grieve then the decision is more clear. You have to remember that most of these people are in the middle of grieving and I am sure when they are given a sufficient amount of time things are clearer. It is easy for you and me to not understand why there seems to be so much anger directed toward the OW/OC because we are not in it. When I first started reading this forum, to tell you the truth I was completely motified by some of the things that where said about OC and it was really hard for me to be objective but I had to be because of the pain. The thought of someone having so much resentment over a innocent human being just killed me. I try to look at my own situation and try to relate it to what I have read on this forum and it makes me hurt. As I said before, my H wants me to abort our child and I just can't. Women have fought so hard to have the right to choose without outside influences for so long that I feel that I should have that choice since I am going to be the one most affected by that decision not my H. I am the one that will have to sit up at night crying for my child or having nightmares. Adoption for me is the hardest thing to do in the world and really don't understand how people do it. My point anyways is that I was really hurt by alot of the comments made on the board about why these OW didn't have and abortion when they were told to by there lover or why did they not give them up for adoption. I don't think that is a fair statement to be made in all situations. I think those options are not easy ones for most women, even other women. My whole thought is that the child deserves that right to live no matter what. The people who should pay for the rest of there lives is the OW and the WS. They should be held responsible for not having enough sense to use a condom and to make sure that these children (marriage and outside) are taken care of. For there mistake they should be held responble.<P>I now this is long but I just wanted to get everything out I believe that the reason we have so many problems in this country is because we have lost site on what is important. I believe in the philosophy (sp?) of "It takes a village to raise a child" and this village includes all of use. Some children are not more important than other all children are. A child born out of wed lock should not be called names or should not be made to feel less important than a child born from marriage. Everyones child is more important to them and that is fine, but equal to all children. <P>Last thing that i need to touch on is that CS issue. That is a tough one because there are so many laws that are unfair for some but where put there to protect children from deadbeat dads. I read that some of you are paying up to 1200 a month and that is just absolutely crazy. There are some families that live on that alone!!!! I believe that most of these rules are not maid to hurt families but insure the welfare of children. You have to remember you might be paying, but there is a greater percentage of father who are not. It is because of these people who run out on there children that the laws have gotten so harsh. I don't think it is fair for some, but it is not working for all.<P>I think I wrote enough now I now some of you are like thank god she is done, so I will say I am sorry. Sorry for any spelling and grammar errors but I don't have any energy to proofread This post was not to enrage anyone but to state that I wish the fighting would stop because it is not helping anyone here. Peace everyone

I will agree that the sruff needs to stop on this board, but I think until we stop debating, it will noe. To me it is obvious that these are closeminded people who are only here to stir up trouble.<P>To you Momhurting...gosh, I am sorry of your siuation. That has got to hurt tremendously. You have also been betrayed (I feel) by your H. He is supposed to protect you and that he is not doing. Where you aware before that he wanted no other children?<P>Love and Prayers<P>broken_wings

Momhurting,<P>Well said. It is a well thought out post. However, (you knew that was coming right? ) you are incorrect to state that: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> You have to remember you might be paying, but there is a greater percentage of father who are not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is simply not true. It isn't even close to true. Most men do pay their child support payments. You are a victim of the quote of the day in our newspaper who will quote anything without checking it. Indeed, many "advocates" feel that it is perfectly alright to flat lie about things if it supports there cherished issue. <P>I will offer you an example. Do you recall when it was being circulated around that when men and women divorce, that the mans standard of living and disposable income increases and the womans goes down? It was pushed by NOW and other woman's organizations as true. I got into a "debate" with a woman on an airplane about it.<P>I asked here a series of question:<P>1. Can you name one company that raises mens salaries when they divorce?<P>2. Can you name a situation when two residences, separate phones, etc, is cheaper than one?<P>3. Can you offer any concrete evidence that men's income increases when divorced and is paying child support and perhaps spousal support?<P>Of course she couldn't. The initial numbers came from a highly flawed (mathematically if not philosophically) report that suited many peoples needs to "advocate" their position so they used it. In many cases all the while knowing it was wrong. Heck, just simple ideas as represented by those questions above show the fallacy of the statement.<P>Momhurting, roughly half of the marriages in this country fail. There are roughly 150 million adults and roughly 75 million marriages. That means roughly 37.5 million broken homes. The number of deadbeat Dad's cases is about 1.5 million based on the last numbers I saw. I am sure Bystander can offer much better statistics. Say I am off by a factor of 10 and there are 10.5 million deadbeat Dad's. That is still way below half of the divorced fathers.<P>Now in fact, many "Deadbeat" Dad's are there because of illness, accidents, loss of jobs so that they cannot pay the CS mandated by the courts. So I think you will find that the "crazy" child support being order has absolutely nothing to do with "deadbeat" Dad's. <P>Further, a village does an awful job of raising children to be "successful". It may keep them alive, but prepare them to compete in the outside world, not a good track record at all. Want evidence? Africa is where this concept of the "village" raising children is most prominent. Yet, their society has advanced the least. Why? Because to have successful children there is needed one on one "training", education, and demand for responsibility. Parents provide that. <P>The data is becoming very clear on this as well. Children of two parent homes on average do better. Why? Not because a single parent cares less or is not a good parent, it has nothing to do with it. It has to do with TIME and resources. One has to have time, patience, and love to raise children to the fullest potential, plus some financial resources are good . You can cite examples where single parents do a wonderful job, but the averages show a different story.<P>Now we come to a problem with the OC in the families. Apart from issues of morality let's look at the most human of responses. People want their off spring to succeed in the world and survive. The data suggests that the probability of this happening is better with a two parent family. The BW knows this and wants to protect her children, that means keeping the marriage intact. However, the OW represents a direct threat to that very goal. Further, the presence of another child means one of two things. First, the H takes time and resources (CS payments) from the children of the marriage to see and help the child. Second, since OW and H apparently were in love if not just heat, then there is a definite chance that the W will lose the H and hurt her children. Neither options is very good. However, the BW cannot control the CS payments, they are without reason. But she can seek to discourage the H from depriving the children of the marriage further by asking him to not spend time with the OC and hopefully not reigniting the affair and causing the marriage to fail. This is known to be bad for the children.<P>We haven't even touched on the fact that the large amounts of CS mean it is less likely for the children of the marriage to go to college, go to trade schools, whatever. <P>So you see, the anger, is really the fear, that their children will lose out. And the data says that, by including the OC in the family via sharing H's time, or the loss of the H altogether, the BW has every reason to fear the damage to the children. In fact all of the children are now hurt instead of just one. <P>I realize that sounds so democratic to have all of the children hurt equally but indeed it undermines the very democracy you are seeking. This data shows also that we have been a successful society because our children have been successful and the society has prospered. In countries where the prosperity is not so evident, children suffer.<P>Heck even in this country 5% of the taxpayers pay over 50% of the all the income taxes. Thus supporting all of the programs used to help children.<P>The data doesn't lie momhurting. That is why this is such an emotional issue. As you so correctly point out, dealing with an affair is hard enough. But compounding it with the addition of another child, who will degrade the opportunities for your own children, now you are dealing with a serious threat to the very bedrock of what it means to be a parent.<P>To close, I wish I could offer you some sage advice about your situation. But I have a hard time understanding it frankly. I cannot understand your H's position on this child and the rest of your children. <P>I will say this, the right to chose, should include the right to take responsibility for that choice. This is not a slam at you in any way. But if women have total control of the reproductive process, then men shouldn't have to pay for the womens choices. If your the boss, you pay the salaries.<P>Momhurting, you are not the only one that is having a difficult time with the tone of the posts. I think that several people are posting here just to bicker. I hope that your well reasoned post does cause some to stop and think.<P>It has been a pleasure talking/typing with you. You sound like a lady who has thought very deeply about these difficult issues and I hope that your H gets his act together and the two of you can decide what is best for you two.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

"Further, a village does an awful job of raising children to be "successful". It may keep them alive, but prepare them to compete in the outside world, not a good track record at all. Want evidence? Africa is where this concept of the "village" raising children is most prominent. Yet, their society has advanced the least. Why? Because to have successful children there is needed one on one "training", education, and demand for responsibility. Parents provide that."<P>Africa may not be advanced, but it is a beautiful country with a culture that is often much more loving and caring than ours. But advancement does not directly relate to how we are doing rasing our children. This attitude in our country that we should only care about OURSELVES and OUR children has helped to create a society of children that have no sense of responsibility. Adults don't support their children, pay their bills or anything else. Bankruptcy is at it's highest. <P>Regarding the child support, I think you need to go back and look at your statements - <P>1. Can you name one company that raises mens salaries when they divorce?<P>No, however they have more time (because the primary care of the child is often with the mother) so that they can focus on work and move up the corporate ladder. Therefore their salaries increase.<P>2. Can you name a situation when two residences, separate phones, etc, is cheaper than one?<P>The man generally only pays for his residence, his phones, etc. Most states no longer allow spousal support, except in cases where the woman was a stay at home mother for years and years. And even then the spousal support is temperary.<P>3. Can you offer any concrete evidence that men's income increases when divorced and is paying child support and perhaps spousal support?<P>Look at their lifestyle, they often drive nicer cars, have nicer houses/apartment, have money for nicer clothes. While the mother barely scrapes by because she is supporting her children, with often very little child support. I agree that anyone who pays $1200 a month for one child is being JIPPED. However there are thousands of fathers who hide income and the support is not a fair and equitable split. I know of a case where a man only had to pay $25 a month. That is just down right ridiculous. Take this scenario - A mother with one child.<P>1. Housing (diff between 1/2 bedroom home) $150<BR>2. Electricity/Water/Sewer Garbage..estimate $50<BR>3. Food $300<BR>4. Clothing/Incidentals $100<P>The list could go on and on...including childcare. <P>That is not even the tip of the iceburg on costs of raising a child, however if you take that total $600 and split it 50/50 just to make all of you happy. It's atleast $300 a month. I personally know many men that don't pay that much. Including my ex husband. Lets be honest here the non custodial parent often gets off easy. If a man doesn't want to have to childsupport he should keep his pants zipped!<P>

LW,<P>You back? sigh! "If man doesn't want to pay child support he should keep his pants zipped." That is so cute.<P>I suppose it is then equally as true that if women didn't want to depend on men to support "their children" they should keep their legs crossed. <P>Really the answer is that men should have equal access to justice, and by that I mean have just as much of a chance at being a custodial parent as the woman. Not going to happen in my lifetime.<P>As for your child support statements, Nuts! I personally know men pay $10,000 a month for child support for one child and gave up half of all assests as well. Big money. Does that prove my point? Of course not. Having three children of my own, I am fully aware of what it costs to raise children.<P>Your answers to all three questions are bogus. What happens after a divorce cannot be determined, but I will say the real data doesn't support your statements. Most divorced men get remarried, so much for all that free time to be the CEO. Indeed, most men work at a JOB not a profession, and having more time doesn't mean more money. However, if you really believe that then let men have custody of the children as was customary in this and other countries until about 1940. Then the women can through themselves into their careers and make VAST sums of money. The children will be better taken care of, which is your point of advocacy right? and the world will be just great.<P>Yes, I am sure there are "thousands of fathers who hide income...", but there are 10's of millions of fathers that pay their fairshare.<P>LW, isn't it time you came out of the closet and admitted to one thing. YOU HATE MEN. And it really bothers you to see women trying to hang on to their husbands, because YOU KNOW they are not worth the effort.<P>Your post sure seem to suggest that is your attitude. By the way, I believe I suggested before in a post to you, that the people here would be glad to help you. So I ask you; is there some problem that you would like to "discuss" or is your only problem that most people here won't let you run their lives?<P>Seriously, I have been puzzling over why you are here and it seems your anger, attacking mode, and lack of general charm, must have a point. Is it that everyone here is wrong? I am not trying to be nasty. You just seem generally pi$$-d about everything and yet at nothing in particular. <P>You berate the women here, because they are too stupid to know their H's will cheat again. You berate them because they "vent" here, so that their daily "actions" are much nicer. You berate anyone who won't lower their standards to take care of the worlds children, all the while ignoring the enormous amount of aid that is sent overseas to children, far more than China, India and much larger countries. You berate the fact that somehow women, who have the right to chose, should be rewarded for bad choices, and aren't.<P>What is it you are here for? Just to be onery? Just to hurt people? <P>Well, if pain is what you like to see. Just be quite for awhile and read the posts here. You will see pain. I also notice that you ignore the pain the men who post here go through when they find out that their W is/has had a child by another man. I would think that if pain is what gets you going, you would be posting to them as well. I suppose since they are men, they don't rate any consideration from you. By the way, here is a news flash, half the children you "advocate" for will be men someday. Perhaps, you should be more selective in which children you advocate for.<P>I am really puzzled and annoyed by you. Not because of what you say, but how you say it. Your deep belief that you have a God given right to hurt people puzzles me. I suppose because you have been hurt, that you are now entitled to hurt anyone else. Very strange thinking I must say.<P>LW, you are welcome to join in dicussions. As you will find out often times people do have very different views of things. You will see it here in this section of MB, but you will see it even more in the other sections. Perhaps you can speak up there, or perhaps you can help save a marriage, so that there won't be an OC to deal with, or even children of divorce. Now that would really help a few children. In fact, saving a few marriages would problem do more for children than about anything else. Are you up to it? I hope so, because there are a lot of people here who need help, both BS and WS. Heck, there are even people posting who are not either of these categories, they are just having trouble in their marriages and trying to sort it out. They could use some help.<P>Why don't you turn your considerable talents to helping people here. You might just find that you are indeed meeting your goal as an "advocate" for children, and making more than a few adults happy with their lives. A noble goal for sure.<P>Have a nice day LW. And do think about what I said. More people around here to help the better.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: OH! forgot one thing. That study that everyone was quoting. Well, when people began to challenge it, even NOW backed away from it. It was wrong.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited April 18, 2001).]

just learning and momhurting, I totally agree with your post, just learning.My anger at OC/Ow has to do with the threat to my family of it's integrity for the development of my children.They are innocent victims, as me, and I will be dammned to let anyone, including my H, make them suffer as I have. They have the right to have a good life, despite their father's mistake.He loves them tremendously, they love him, and one day I hope that love and his constant in their life will allow them to forgive his reckless behavior of the affair. I also think, if the woman chooses to keep the child, knowing she cannot afford to do so, who is selfish?She should care for child independently without forcing custody. WE are one on the ones who pay nearly 1200 a month for one child.Is that outrageous or what?that comes to over 200,000 in 18 years-is that crazy?We have no control over how that money is spent, if the money is going to child or to help the OW get a nicer car. I have a 10 year old car that may not be replaced because of these payments. Her car is newer. Is that fair? I think she was incredibly selfish to say I will raise child alone, then seek CS from H after she realized she could not do it. Does she think of how she is taking away from my kids? No-not once has she apologized for damage or what she is taking from my kids.So if I seem less than willing to offer my life, my love, my home, my H to her to be the child;'s father, than I hope you can understand. My attitude is certainly no worse than hers. AT least I have not deliberately hurt her as she has hurt me.She is lucky I haven';t done more damage to her-had I followed my fantasies I could be in jail by now.

Let me just ask this....<P>In the state I live in, a woman can have a child, decide she doesn't WANT that child and DROP THE CHILD OFF AT A HOSPITAL OR CHURCH...in a BASKET or WHATEVER...and NEVER, EVER have governmental reprocusions. So, why is it that a woman can decide her child is disposable, but a father...or in my case a sperm donor..and a STUPID ONE...has to pay for the rest of his life? This just came to mind while I was reading this post. Any ideas?

fightingirish. <P>how weird! that same thought crossed my mind today driving home from work. in my state, the bill allowing women to do that is on the governors desk as we speak. as i was listening to the news, i thought, another choice for women. when do men get a choice........ <P>it goes back to the same argument that is always there. women have all the choices. now, in some states, they have 4! men have NONE. some say, then don't have sex. what a double standard. a woman can have sex and then have up to 4 choices if she ends up pregnant. but a man has absolutely NONE if the woman ends up pregnant. his choices end up being dependent upon the decision of the woman. <P>women can <P>1. have the baby<BR>2. give the baby up for adoption<BR>3. have an abortion<BR>4. leave the baby at a locally designated "safe place", notice though, she won't have to pay child support.<P>how unfair is that??? it makes me ill.<P>happy_girl

Okay, I see the debate is not over! I was hoping that when I wrote this post that it would try to open up both sides to see that it is not going to help any of us to fight over it. I hope people can understand that you can change people only your selves.<P>Just Learning- I appreciate your post and I am glad you gave me to stats on CS One thing that I don't agree with you on is the Village quote I made. I was born in East Africa, but grew up here in the States. I have had the wonderful pleasure of being raised with both culutures and I am thankful for that and I think that is the reason I am the person that I am now. Africa might not be technologically advanced as the US, but I will let you know that culturally we are more advanced. Children are the most important thing in a my culture. I visit there alot and I will let you know that the divorce rate there basically in almost nonexistant. The whole family in involved with each and every child, I am not talking about mother and fathers. I mean mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, cousins, second cousins, neighbors, neighbors neighbor, priests, strangers. The village concept works and the offspring show this. When it comes to education you cant get any smarter people, but there are not enough resources for them. Did you know that in my country the avarage high school graduate is equivilante to a sophomore in college here!! There is such a limited resource out there that they only take the best. My cousins come out here to go to college and they just fly through college. One of my cousins living with my parents now is in college getting his engineering degree. He graduated from high school two years ago and will be graduating next fall with honors. When children get all the love they need they don't act out like gangs and drug abuse, which is also almost non existant. The only reason it even exsist is because they see the movies and listen to the music from the US and are now coping it. Anyways, I think my point in this post is that I wanted to say is that I don't feel what you have material wise makes you more advanced, but where you are at culturally. In my country we don't have the problems of gangs, drugs, murders, school shootings, serial killers, rapest, molesters, child killers. We are not afraid to let our children play outside by themselves because our advanced society see the importance of children and our future. Please JL don't take it as a flame or anything just wanted to let you know why I believe in the Village philosophy .

Bravo Momhuring....exactly what i said, technically we may be more advanced but culturally Africa is a much more advanced place to be!

momhurting,<P>I am very happy that your country is doing so well. And I couldn't agree with you more, about the influence of families and friends on children. <P>As you can tell "our" villages don't do so well. Part of that is because when people here talk about "taking a village" they are talking about a government funded program with all the associated rules, "advocates", and such. They are not talking about "families or even extended families" that would mean addressing "family values", intact marriages, etc. When you have great dislocations in a family or a group of people, then the "village" seems to fail. Oh! the children are fed, play, and are happy but they aren't necessarily challenged.<P>It sounds as if your country and the "villages" are relatively stable, both from a family stand point and social one. That is good to hear.<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> There is such a limited resource out there that they only take the best. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is the key. We don't do that here. We take everyone, it seems, and the focus is lost. But the best if given a chance will prosper anywhere. The difficulty is that in the "village" mentality someone has to choose the best, and move them along or you lose some of the very best. That requires more than money doesn't it? It requires that people "know" the children.<P>Typically, parents know their children best. They are the ones that often sacrifice, prod, motivate, and encourage their children to great things. This individual approach has a greater chance of finding the very best, than the "village" unfortunately. I doubt that peer pressure is less in Africa than here.<P>But if the situation is right, and children are nutured, then they can succeed there is no doubt about that. I apologize if I offended you, for it was not my intention. However, places where the family unit has been supplanted by something else, don't see much advancement. We have plenty of evidence of that here, and it is saddly true in Africa as a whole as well. "Villages" tend to provide for the status quo, (read peer pressure), rather encouraging change.<P>Parents often provide the backing, confidence, and support for a child to grow into someone who is willing to challenge their peers and find a better way. But a lot of this depends on what one expects of their children and how willing one is to sacrifice for them. Some parents meet do these things and others do not.<P>momhurting, I will plead guilty on one thing though. Many people are happy if their children do roughly as well as they did. They live, have families, and pass on. Nothing wrong with those goals. However, my goal is that my children will live a better, healthier, more productive live than I have. I know "better" is a relative word, but perhaps I mean "better" in the sense of contributions, happiness, health, and perhaps faith. Wealth is a relative word to me.<P>So I am guilty of judging things based on what I want, hope for, and prod my children to do. Perhaps that is my problem.<P>In any event, thank you for the conversation.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>Don't worry you didn't offend me! I know what you mean though about the village not working here, because everything is such a bureaucracy here. Things that should be left to a family (extended included), is governed by the government. Things like taking care of our relatives and children of the family is taken over by the government. In my country we don't have a welfare system at all. Your family is your welfare. Everyone takes care of everyone. I don't know one household that has just the nuclear family. My father and mother not only put me and my bothers and sisters through college but also nieces and nephews and cousins. My parents are not there supporting their 7th child through college (My cousin I mentioned in last post). I believe in what you said that the parents know their child the best, but if you have people who are just involved in your life they know you also. My aunts and uncles are just as supportive sometimes more than my parents. When I graduated from college, my parents threw a great party for me and at the same time in Africa my family had a party going for me and they called and congradulated me. In my language our aunts and uncles arent called that, they are called mom and dad. So relative to where your mother or father is to there siblings (i.e. if your mother was the second born out of 5 kids), then you have little moms or dads, siblings that are younger than your mother, and you big moms and dads, siblings that are older than your mother. That is such a great concept because that means your have your primary mom, but you have a whole bunch of other ones that love you just as much.<P>Okay enough, I want to tie this in to the subject of this board some way or another. My point I think is that we have to consider all the children of this world just as important as your neighbors. My youngest aunt is an OC. My grandfather had an affair and she was produced. My mother told me about it many years ago when I asked her how is it that I have an aunt younger than me when my grandmother was in her late eighties (My grandfather is dead and my grandmother is past 100 right now, she told me about everything and to my surprise alot of my relative are OC, but that just doesn't matter. They are children of the family and they are all taken care off by everyone without a lot of fighting. I guess my point is that I think that way because I was raised that way. I can't change that just like most of you cant change how you feel. I can only imagine how hurtful that situation would be to so many of you.

momhurting,<P>I hope you don't mind if we continue this conversation. It is very thought provoking, and I am enjoying it quite abit. If it is bothering you let me know and I will stop. <P>Your last paragraph was very thought provoking to me. You are right, we are most comfortable with what we were raised with. Things seemed to work in our childhood that somehow don't when we are adults. But your statement about many of your relatives being OC struck me. And I want to run this by you. <P>I would suspect that in your family, especially in the past many people produced their own food, they traded things, and the need for money was somewhat less. They could live without much because they were somewhat self-sufficient. If they had alot it was significantly more than the average person.<P>Here that is not really possible to be self-sufficient, because of our economic culture. It was much more true 50-100 years ago when people grew their own food, didn't move around much (meaning that relatives were near by), and knew everyone in town. Today, this is no longer true, and the consequences of this are hugh. One of them is that when an OC appears, it costs someone BIG money and time that no one seems to have. There are no/few relatives around to help the single mom, and so she sues to get CS from the other family. So all children lose, here. It is because we are mobile now, the basic unit is the mother and father, not grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. If the mother and father unit is attacked, the children suffer. Solution bring in the government with all of the mess that entails.<P>You now live in the US, right? You are far from many of your relatives and family, so a betrayal by your H is a very significant thing here and emotionally was no matter where you live. If children were involved it becomes a much large attack on the well being of your child, because the support group that you grew up with doesn't exist for you here.<P>Why do people here need so much? Because we are trying to acheive so much. Is that a good thing? Yes, sort of it is, but it can be pretty destructive as well. I have yet to see in all of the places I have been in the world a people that didn't like children. Didn't view them as an asset. (Well there are some exceptions where child slavery still exists, but that is someone elses village right? Weak justification but it is used.) Even in this topic, somehow the debate has been turned in such a way, that the woman that doesn't want to be involved with OW or OC, doesn't like children. Yet, that isn't true. What is happening, is they don't like what the presence of the OC means to the well being of their marriage and their own children.<P>So I come to my last question. In your country, does the presence of an OP in a marriage damage it? Does the presence of an OC diminish the future for the children of a marriage? Perhaps it does, but not to the extent that it seems to here.<P>I appreciate talking with you. I am learning a great deal and you sound like a woman who can see that most things indeed have two sides.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL- I have been gone for 5 days visiting so I am back. I am also enjoying this conversation, so let us continue I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I think you are mistaken on your take on the economic system of MOST countries in Africa. My country we have two areas the rural and the city. Majority of my family live in the city, so basically there is no difference from here. I know a lot of people get confused about Africa, because of what they see on TV. I will let you know that is the smallest fraction of Africa. My city has all the benefits of a big city in the US. I guess the best way for me to discribe it is like in the south, they have rural areas that live like they are 50 years behind and then you have the big cities in the same states.<BR>My point is that money, class standing and all those things that come with advancement in a society are still factors, but they are governed by cultural beliefs. Cultural beliefs are more important than anything. <P>Marriages are affected by cheating and OC, but that is handled by the adults and made sure the children (all children) are not affected. Divorce is not a thing that is done regurally, with exception of abuse. The whole family will work to make it better for the children, including the wife and the OW. I am not saying it is easy and that there isn't animosity at times, but if the children are okay that is all that matters.

Dear momhurting,<P>I, too, have been enjoying this conversation. I hope you all don't mind if I jump in with some questions. I was wondering how they handle the issue of cs in africa. Is there a standard set of guidelines, or does the father just contribute to an amount agreed upon between him and ow? <BR>cd

There is no such thing as child support in my country!!! The family takes care of the child and that is not questioned by anyone, period. <P>glad you joined in