LSB...I am asking you this directly because I have read recently in one of your posts (anyone else with input feel free to answer) that...if your husband had it his way she (OW) wouldn't have kept the baby...how do you know this is true? because your husband told you this? A lot of times what the wives hear is not what is told to the OW. Also I read your posts and you stated he attended the birth, babtism, and 1st birthday. Seems to me he was pretty supportive of her birth. I am just curious why you think that he was so against other woman having the child. Maybe he is telling you that now so you won't be as mad at him. Please don't be mad at me for asking me this...I am just curious how a man can be that supportive as to attend the birth and yet you think he wasn't in support of the baby being born?

<B>Wow another party! Yipee! Here is a sampling of the one we are having on Tempest's thread. I'll be back later to join this one again, but for now I thought I'd give you a sampling of the fun over there.</B><P>Nerlycrzy<BR>Member posted April 19, 2001 08:36 PM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Heyyyyyyyyyyyyy Deb<BR>About those JELLO recipes,,,,,I think I'd like about 45 different ones posted for future recovery parties!! LOL Think you can provide them?<BR> <P>A blessed Samantha<BR>Member posted April 19, 2001 10:36 PM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Hi Tempest and all, oh yeah, you too Nerly!<BR>A party I hear is brewing here? Yeah! I love parties and I get to share my gazillion recipes? I am happy as can be.<P>My first entry to this party is one of my favorites...<P>Enjoy!<P>************************************************************<BR>RECIPE: GAZPACHO<BR>************************************************************<P>INGREDIENTS:<BR>2 plum tomatoes, quartered<BR>1 large cucumber, peeled and halved<BR>1 onion, peeled and halved<BR>1 cup green bell pepper, diced<BR>1 4-ounce jar diced pimento peppers, drained<BR>2 12-fluid ounce cans tomato juice<BR>1/3 cup olive oil<BR>1/3 cup red wine vinegar<BR>1/4 teaspoon Tabasco or other hot pepper sauce<BR>1 1/2 teaspoons salt<BR>1/8 teaspoon ground black pepper<BR>2 cloves garlic, minced<BR>1/2 cup croutons<BR>1/4 cup chopped fresh chives<P>DIRECTIONS:<BR>In a blender combine one tomato, half the cucumber, half the<BR>onion, a green bell pepper quarter, the pimento and 1/2 cup<BR>tomato juice. Blend at high speed, covered, for 30 seconds<BR>to puree the vegetables. In a large bowl mix the pureed<BR>vegetables with remaining tomato juice, 1/4 cup olive oil,<BR>vinegar, Tabasco, salt and ground black pepper. Cover mixture<BR>and refrigerate until it is well chilled (about 2 hours).<BR>At the same time, refrigerate 6 serving bowls. Meanwhile<BR>saute the croutons in oil and add the garlic. Chop (separately)<BR>the remaining tomato, cucumber, onion and green bell pepper. <BR>Place the croutons and each of these chopped vegetables in<BR>separate bowls to serve as accompaniments. Serve soup in<BR>chilled bowls. Just before serving time, sprinkle with chopped<BR>chives for garnish. <P>Yield: 6 Servings<BR>Category: Soups, Vegetarian<P>See you all soon.<P>Hugs to all,<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha<P>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited April 19, 2001).]<P><B>Wait until I tell the others. We all just love the parties. </B><BR> <P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited April 20, 2001).]

Hey thanks Samantha...i am too tired to think of any real good recipes right now but i will later....i just love this party thing!!!!!!!!!!

<B>broken_wings</B><P>Oh honey you are welcome and I am so sorry you are so tired. You just go rest up and get ready to party and post those recipes you've got in mind. We'll all still be here, I promise.<P>In the meantime here is another wonderful recipe by our "Infamous Carolina Belle." Sure sounds like a good one! Yummy for my tummy. <P>Carolina Belle<BR>Member posted April 19, 2001 11:14 PM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Okay, here's my fave:<BR>Lasagna Bolognese<P>(One note guys - the one thing that I have learned with Lasagna is that there is no such thing as too much cheese! )<P>1 pound mozzarella cheese, grated<BR>1/2 pound ricotta<BR>1 pound lasagna noodles<BR>1/2 cup freshly grated Parmesan cheese<P>Meat Sauce:<P>2 Tabs butter<BR>1 cup chopped onion<BR>2 cloves minced garlic<BR>1/2 cup chopped celery<BR>2 tabs olive oil<BR>1 lb. Sweet Italian sausage<BR>1 lb. Ground beef<BR>1/2 cup dry white wine<BR>4 tabs tomato paste<BR>2 cups beef broth<BR>1 bay leaf<BR>1/2 teas sugar<BR>1/2 teas oregano<BR>1/8 teas allspice<BR>1/2 teas basil<BR>Salt and pepper to taste<P>Italian Béchamel sauce:<P>3 tabs butter<BR>6 tabs flour<BR>2 cups milk<BR>1 cup heavy cream<BR>1 teas salt<BR>1/8 teas fresh nutmeg (or use bottled to be easy)<P>**********<P>For the meat sauce: In a heavy skillet, melt the butter and sauté the onion, garlic, and celery over low heat until golden. Transfer to a heavy 3-4 quart saucepan. To the same skillet add olive oil and sauté sausage and beef until lightly browned, breaking up any lumps. Drain excess fat. Add wine to meat and bring to a boil, stirring constantly until wine is almost evaporated. Add meat to the saucepan containing onion mixture, and then add tomato paste, beef stock, and all spices. Simmer partially covered for 30 minutes, stirring occasionally. Remove and discard bay leaf.<P>For the béchamel sauce: In a heavy 2-3 quart saucepan, melt butter over low heat. Whisk in flour and cook slowly for 2 to 3 minutes; do not let the flour brown, this will cause the sauce to be brown. Stir constantly. Gradually add the milk and cream, stirring with a whisk to prevent lumping. Heat to boiling, stirring constantly, until the sauce thickens. Remove from heat and add salt and nutmeg.<P>Mix 3/4 of the mozzarella cheese with the ricotta cheese and set aside. Grease a 9x13 baking dish. Cook lasagna noodles according to the package directions. Drain on towels. To assemble, spread 1/4 inch of meat sauce evenly in prepared dish. Layer with 1/3 of the noodles, then 1/3 of the béchamel sauce and 1/3 of the cheese mixture. Repeat twice. Top with reserved mozzarella and sprinkle with Parmesan cheese. Bake in a 350-degree oven until bubbly, about 30 minutes.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Carolina Belle (edited April 19, 2001).]<P> <P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited April 20, 2001).]

Real mature guys, I was asking a legitimate question. Not trying to incite anyone. Just curious becuase of the circumstances she described. I think you all ought to call your party "DENIAL". Because anytime anyone brings up anything that could even point in the direction that maybe your husband manipulates you and the OW you get huffy. denial denial denial.

Good job again LW. another applause for you from me.<P>LW, these recipes here are the only ones these BW's wants to believe in and nothing more. If they are only willing to see the other side of the story, they might not be hurting as they are now. Goodluck BW's!<P>once again, Congratulations LW!

Thanks...it's the truth though. These women shoot down anyone that questions or is critical of their husbands. That blind faith is why they are in this position in the first place. They need to realize that their husbands LIE. And obviously if they lied to the wife they probably lied and manipulated the OW.

<B>broken_wings</B><P>Hi again. I am guessing you may be sleeping like most smart people right now. Me, well I am still getting laundry done for our camping trip.<P>I did find another recipe for the party and thought I would post it here first to see if you liked it? It sounds pretty good to me, and it's keeping up with the Italian theme. I am still going to have to find a Jell-O recipe though. If <B>Deb</B> shows up with 45 of her best ones, via <B>NerlyCrzy</B> requests, we will probably have enough to last for days and days. My daughter will be in her glory.<P>So here is the recipe.<P><BR>***********************************************************<BR>RECIPE: SPINACH MANICOTTI<BR>***********************************************************<P>INGREDIENTS:<BR>1 carton (15 ounces) ricotta cheese<BR>1 package (10 ounces) frozen chopped spinach,<BR> thawed and squeezed dry<BR>1 1/2 cups (6 ounces) shredded mozzarella cheese,divided<BR>3/4 cup shredded Parmesan cheese, divided<BR>1 egg<BR>2 teaspoons minced fresh parsley<BR>1/2 teaspoon onion powder<BR>1/2 teaspoon pepper<BR>1/8 teaspoon garlic powder<BR>2 jars (28 ounces ea) spaghetti sauce with meat<BR>1 1/2 cups water<BR>1 package (8 ounces manicotti shells<BR> <BR>DIRECTIONS:<BR>In large bowl, combine ricotta, spinach, 1 cup mozzarella,<BR>1/4 cup Parmesan, egg, parsley, onion powder, pepper,<BR>and garlic powder. Combine spaghetti sauce and water;<BR>spread 1 cup sauce in an ungreased 9x13 baking dish.<BR>Stuff uncooked manicotti with spinach mixture; arrange<BR>over sauce. Pour remaining sauce over manicotti.<BR>Sprinkle with remaining mozzarella and Parmesan. Cover<BR>and refrigerate overnight. Remove from the refrigerator<BR>30 minutes before baking. Bake, uncovered at 350<BR>degrees for 40-50 minutes or until heated through.<P>YIELD: 6-8 servings<P><B>Okay, well I am off to slumber land and wishing you all well and that you enjoy a wonderful weekend.<P>Mega hugs</B><P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited April 20, 2001).]

You guys are entirely too funny! I can't wait to try some of these yummy recipies!

Hey. Let's all try to be respectful of one another here.<P>Lurking, You bring up a good question. How do betrayed spouses know that their wayward spouses are telling the truth?<P>The answer is, we don't. <P>I do not know the specifics of the situation you speak of, but it could very well be that the husband is experiencing regret on the one hand, but wanting to be responsible and supportive of the tiny new life that has come into the world because of his actions. Perhaps he did not want the baby to be born, but now that it is here, he realizes that it is A Child--his child, one that deserves better than shunning.<P>But, Lurking, please know that this is a very painful subject to discuss. Perhaps if you asked questions more generally instead of directed at one person you might get a few more supportive answers.<P>All the best to All of you.<BR>--HBC

I am also going to respond, since this question could have been directed at me. My H wanted OW to abort. He did not want child. But he did go to hospital when OC was born. Mixed messages aren't they?<P>In my case (and I can only address my case), my H is a very self-centered person. World revolves around him & his needs. Prior to our marriage I was pregnant. He was adament that he did not want a child. I aborted. Later, after marriage and while I was on birth control, I got pregnant again. My H wanted me to abort again. I refused. He eventually got over it and adores our son. By the time the first one was 10 mths old I was pregnant again (was not using BC at the time). So my boys are 14 mths apart. I feared telling my H about second pregnancy and just knew he would demand an abortion. He didn't and I was surprized.<P>Now this man should be seeking a vasectomy since he really dones NOT want to raise children. But again, he is too self centered. His only involvement in OC life is due to fact that he gets pumped up by the thought of being so important that everyone needs him. He really doesn't get into what others need, just how the thought of it feeds his ego. <P>I may be fooled here as to what he really feels about this child, but I doubt it. I have lived with him for over a decade. He is very selfish. The OW was the one seeing only the outer image that he gave off. She actually thought he was a good father to his sons. Now I ask you, how could she think that when I was the one taking them by myself to ballgames, church, grandparents, etc. while he was out doing as he pleased and not involved in their lives except when convenient? Remember, I am only speaking for my situation. And in my case, I admit that this man has personality flaws. He just doesn't have what it takes to be supportive of anyone. His parents, his children by me, his daughter by first marriage included. But maybe somehow OW has finally brought out a "better side" of him. <P>Carolyn

HurtButCoping - Thanks for responding, I was legitimately asking. The reason I aimed the question directly at LSB...was just because I was suprised at the extent of the contact between her husband and the OC, before the she found out. Also because when I have asked general questions, some of the people on here have come down on me for it. But thank you for answering.<P>TakingCare - Thanks for answering. That was informative.

Samantha<P>Now this is a good one!!<P>Avocado Dip with Tortilla Crisps<BR>For a spicy version, substitute 1 tablespoon finely chopped, seeded jalapeño chili pepper for the mild pepper. This recipe is featured in the book Better Homes and Gardens Healthy Family Cookbook. <BR> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR> <BR> <BR>Ingredients<BR>2 ripe avocados <BR>1/3 cup fat-free mayonnaise or salad dressing<BR>3 tablespoons lime juice <BR>1/2 cup diced tomato <BR>1 tablespoon finely chopped mild green chili pepper <BR>2 tablespoons snipped cilantro <BR>1/2 teaspoon dried thyme, crushed<BR>1/4 teaspoon garlic powder <BR>1/4 teaspoon pepper <BR>8 6-inch corn or flour tortillas <BR>Nonstick spray coating <BR>3 tablespoons chopped green onion <P><BR>Directions<BR>Prep Time: 15 minutes <BR>Cooking Time: 8 minutes <P><BR>Peel and pit avocados. In a medium bowl mash avocado pulp with a fork. Add mayonnaise dressing or salad dressing, lime juice, tomato, green onion, chili pepper, cilantro, thyme, garlic powder, and pepper; stir till well combined. Cover and chill till serving time.<P><BR>For tortilla crisps, spray tortillas with nonstick coating. Stack tortillas. With a sharp knife cut stack into 8 triangles; separate triangles and place on baking sheets. Bake in 425° F oven about 8 minutes or till brown and crisp.<P><BR>Serve chilled dip with cooled crisps.<P> <P><BR>

Samantha,<P>You are right I finally sucked it down and decided I was going to sleep...haha. My H got home from work and all kinds of crazy stuff was going on there. I got to see him in action though, which was something I dont get privelege of often, an di got to say...Hes pretty darn sexy. <P>OOOOOOO and I and my H just LOVE italian!!! Thanks!<P>nerlycrzy..(did i spell that right?) I just gotta tell ya I love your screen name! hehe Thank you also for the recipe! I love mexican food of any kind. Unfortunaltel my H is now a restaraunt manager and of course it is mexican and now he is not too gung ho about it. I guess it comes with the territory. oh well...Ill make it and eat it when hes at work!<P>Love and Prayers<P>bw

Okay, you guys. The cooking tips were funny, but I believe they've outlived their usefulness.<P>Lurking Woman, I have been reading some of the other topics here, and I'm beginning to see a pattern.... Please allow me to say what I think I see happening. I may be off base, but I want to try to start opening up some <B>helpful</B> dialogs.... Of course, if that doesn't work, maybe you and I can share some hot fudge recipes? <P>Lurking Woman, What I see happening here is that someone makes a post, you make a response saying definitively in black and white "You are doing this..." or "This is always what happens...", and then you get lambasted for making generalities. <P>Then you called out a specific person and made a specific comment that the situation was black and white and someone else (that would be me) lambasted you for being too specific. Sorry for leaping before looking.<P>I think the real problem here is the delivery of a black and white pronouncement in the form of a "you statement". I can never know everything that is going on in your world and it would be presumptuous of me to pretend to. <P>I could sense you were asking a genuine question, but I can see how it got lost to so many people. Instead of asking it as a "you question", as in "...how [can] a man...be that supportive as to attend the birth and yet you think he wasn't in support of the baby being born?", and replace it with an "I question", an example for me would be, "My husband has had many affairs; how can I trust him again?"<P>You ask a lot of good questions. Just stop for a moment and re-read what you write and ask yourself how you would react to me asking you the same question.<P>All the best to you.<BR>--HBC

HBC,<BR>Thanks. That is kind of how I felt. I felt like if I asked something to general I was getting yelled at and if I got specific I was getting blasted. I guess I am just not sure how to ask and not get people mad here. I know part of that is my fault because I am a very blunt and black and white kind of person. I have been like that my whole life. But I will try, sincerely, to be more understanding of the differences in the situations. Hopefully that will help. Thank you for taking the time to look at the posts and to talk to me about it.<BR>Lurking Woman

Well I completely missed it folks... I didnt realize that the recipies thingie was difuse the tension? at least that is what I hope... since getting defensive does not work and trying compassion... it does not matter how LW posts her questions... she is hurting and she might be blunt ...but does it help to retaliate... or should we turn the other cheek and show her some compassion...<BR>think about it..<BR>C1

lurking woman, just for the heck of it I will reply. My H has felt incredibly bad about circumstances of child's birth. I know he did not enter affair to have child,but to have sex. He admits he and OW used each other for sexual needs, that was clear between both of them from the start.The OW knew this at outset. When she became pregnant, he tried to convince her to abort, but she would not even talk about it. He has told me all his decision about what to do about pregnancy went out the window, and he had no say in the manner. I do not find that implausible.Further, once child was born, despite his attendance at these signficicant events, he did not do much with child-remember, he spent only 1-2 hours a week with OC/Ow even prior to child;s birth.That is not much time. He felt caught being responsible for child , given OW was pretty poor and overwhelmed with her choice, a choice he tried to tell her that raising child by self would be difficult at best. She had no children, always wanted kids, decided to keep child. My H also was living a kind of bizarre double life, in a fantasy life, which believe it or not is totally unlike him, and he really is not a selfish man, although obviously his decisions with affair was very selfish and he is trying to understand what happened to him that changed him.He does not have a history of this, unlike the other woman who posted stating husband was totally selfish. He did not want child, felt obligated to be with child after birth.Admits he would have felt obligated to marry her had he not been married, very old fashioned in that regard.But in actuality, he never wanted to marry her. Never had the thought to have a permanent relationship with her, and in fact he says she did not want him toward the end either. So that is that. Why do you always put such a negative spin on things?

Dear Lurking Woman,<P>My H was at the hospital when the OC was born even though he begged OW to abort. Why? For two very good reasons. First, he was afraid that if he did not show interest in her well-being she would make it a lot worse for us financially and emotionally. OW could not get anyone to take her to hospital. My H went to her home (she lives with her parents) and they were there in the house and refused to go with her. They are very religious and did not want any part of bringing a child into the world "in sin" as they believe. So, showing simple compassion, he took the woman to the hospital.<P>He also readily admitted to me that he lied to the OW when he told her he loved her. He told her that so that she would have sex with him. Sex was the objective, not marriage, not parenthood -- simple sex. That is obvious because when the pregnancy was announced, my H told me and ran like a scared rabbit because the OW was making demands that he knew he was not interested in keeping.<P>My H feels terribly guilty that he brought an unwanted child into this world and even guiltier that he ruined this woman's life by telling her lies. But, he knew that she might be vindictive if he tried to break it off completely with her. So, he maintained minimal contact. He saw the OC twice a month for about 2 hours each time -- no holidays, no family gatherings. But at least the OW could not complain that he had dumped the child.<P>LW, like some of the others said, no one can say with 100% surety that "all men" or "all women" do anything. I deal with people who have committed crimes every single day. Some of them are repeat offenders, they show absolutely no remorse for what they have done, and even after being punished they will go back and do the same thing again. Certainly some men (and women) are career liars and will have affairs again. But not all.<P>The saddest thing that I see are the basically "good" people who fell in with a bad crowd, got caught up in the heat of a moment and made a mistake. These people ARE remorseful and they are so disturbed at what they did and being punished for it that they will NEVER repeat the offense. <P>Since this is MarriageBuilders, I think that you find on this site a very high percentage of people whose wayward spouses fall into the latter category. Do we know that our spouses will never cheat again? Of course not. No one knows that. <P>But our spouses have been tested by, what I consider, the biggest motivator there is -- they could leave us and build a new family -- new baby and new spouse. But they have not. No one can stop a person from leaving their spouse who wants to go. The fact that our husbands and wives are still with us is the proof that they want to be with us.<P>How each couple then deals with the OC is a very private matter between the two of them based on the type of people they are. Again, you cannot generalize that all people who refuse to have contact are no good. Some H's want to have contact with the OC but it is too painful for their spouse. If the H gives up the OC for the good of the marriage, that does not mean in all cases that the H will end up hating the spouse nor does it mean that the H will sneak around to see the OC.<P>As adults who understand consequences, each of us makes choices -- like giving up children for adoption -- the choice may be painful and we may think of it from time to time, but we know that it was done for the right reason.<P>To most people, Marriage IS a sacred bond -- those vows are serious. And, it takes the consequences of an A to make us realize just how sacred those vows are.<P>I am sorry for your pain but sincerely hope that you will allow others to help you, if that is what you need, rather than inflicting pain on others. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should try to present your views as your own and not as if they are established facts and guidelines for everyone on the site. That may help others to relate to you better.<P>Sorry to be so long. Good luck, my prayers are with you.<BR>heavenly<P>

Lurking:<P>I hope I helped a little. Try the "I statements". I find them to be helpful when I have tough questions to ask. Not that I don't tick people off in my own way. <P>{{{lsb}}}<BR>It sounds as though you have had an incredibly tough time. And I'm sure it was hard for you to come and post to this topic given all the craziness that has been going on on this board. Thank you for sharing your story. <P>heavenly,<BR>I thank you, too, for sharing your story. You are abolutely correct when you say that generalities don't fit when discussing situations such as these. The Marriage Builder concepts are generalities that do seem to explain many, but not all, affairs, but when a child is thrown into the mix things change a lot. Quickly. I am so sorry to hear of your pain, but I am glad you are posting on this board.<P>Everyone, I appreciate the opportunity to come here and listen to your stories. Thank you for sharing them and letting us all learn.<P>All the best.<BR>--HBC<P>