for three years we lived in a place that could only be described as doomed. hubby worked as a bartender in a 24hr town and fell into the habit of drinking after work (got off at 2am) considering most of his buddies were single, simply didn't get my wanting him to just come home after work, i was just "being controlling". he was often a 'confronation avoider' and extremely defensive. no matter how you say it, you're attacking him. <P>early in 1999 he showed me an advertisement about a school he wanted to attend to learn a new career. he would be home at night, weekends, holidays. we made plans to move in summer 2000. my prayers had been answered, i just had to hold on one more year.<P>things stayed status-quo, friends, etc coming before me, and i just did my own thing to keep my sainity and to not spoil the time we spent together. we had a wonderful 4yr anniversary aug. 1999, great holiday season, etc... still the staying out but i was counting down till that was all over.<P>spring 2000 he seemed so changed. much more open, etc. one night he had gotten home from work and i woke up and we ended up talking till i was supposed to get up at 6am (things like how he couldn't wait to get out of this town and for us to refocus on what's important, etc) I expected him to go to bed while I was showering, but he even stayed up to have breakfast with me and the kids before we had to leave. Also during that month he told me "I always knew I loved you, but i don't think i knew how much till now" i joked "what took you so long?" and he got real seroius and told me that he finially stopped being scared to really love me. later, he said "promise me that if anything happens with us we'll always be friends, you're the only one who i fell safe enough to open up to"<P>I should mention that he's not the emotional/sentimental type at all when it comes to words...<P>summer 2000 was approaching, he'd quit his job, and one night early may 2000 we were getting ready for family to be in town for our son's b-day and the phone rang. a woman asked to speak with me, <BR>"this is her," i said<BR>"can you talk?" she asked<BR>I thought is was some sales woman or something<BR>"my 19 year old is pregnant by your husband"<BR>I froze, stood there holding the phone out to my husband. I could transcribe the entire conversation, but I'll spare you...<P>We put the kids to bed and I asked him if it was true...he said yes and offered to leave the house. i told him that he had made a habit of leaving/ending the conversation instead of facing things and i'd be damned if he did it this time...we talked, w/o haven even read harley, i instinctively knew not to shout the things i had every right to...<P>that night he offered to sleep on the sofa, i said no, the kids'll think somethings wrong. we went to bed, he tried to hold me...told him to not touch me, it just hurts. <BR>(took him a about a week before he could even touch me-if we bumped in the hallway is sent waves of pain through me)<P>I prayed that night real hard, asked God to let me know what to do, If it was to stay, just let me not hate him tomorrow. I woke up the next morning and while i couldn't look at him, let alone touch him, i didn't hate him...i wanted to fight for us. I'm not much for churches, but big on turning to God for strength<P>it started late summer 1999, for a few months. it was basically a handful of one night stands. he doesn't remember how many (doesn't remember much of anything about any of it, i think he blocked it out??)but maybe 3/4. she moved away a few months but was back feb 2000, another 2/3 times happened. Supposedly she's allergic to laytex and has cervical cancer so was infertile. she's no knockout, kinda mousy, really.<P>the why? <BR>-he was lonely, i didn't seem to want him. well, i didn't feel real wanted when he just came home when ever he got around to it, so kinda shut down...he knows now to talk about things instead of ASSuming...<BR>-i was real over weight...calm down girls let me finish...i weighed 239 jan 1999, felt like sh** about it...he loved me, thought i was beautiful (though was concerned about my health)...his words "i never said anything about your weight, except that i was concerned given your family heart-health history, i always told you how beautiful i thought you were and you never believed me, i wasn't worth enough to you for my opinion to matter" (take note those of you that argue when hubbies say you look good-it makes them feel good when you believe it).<P>that covered the first few before she moved, when she came back...who knows, maybe the option of yes, i'll come over was easier then telling me what had happened. he said he was scared.<P>no real excuses, just uncovering problems that we never faced till it was too late.<P>where i am at now? i am not grateful the affair happened, an affair is NEVER a good thing. but i feel that for us, is took a tragedy to open our, especially his, eyes. if we could erase the past, we'd have the best marriage ever...<P>i found marriage builders summer 2000, had only gone to counseling once :<BR>for $70, we got: no one will ever know why it happened, i(counselor) cheated on all three of my wives and my first 2 never got past it, luckily my third did.<BR>solution: re-connect (okay, makes sense, he was trying to become my friend again already,) counselor's idea how? make out on the sofa!!!<BR>hubby was more angry than I was, ranting how he'll be damned if any one is going to excuse what he did!!<P>anyway, i was searching the net last summer and stumbled upon here. read harley's articles and was amazed. found this board and wow...my first reaction was utter amazement that this happens to other people than just Jerry Springer guests!!! i must thank so many of you for your wisdom, i'm not good with names or i'd list them all. i would've posted long ago, but the though of typing it all out hurt so much...still does, but at least i'm not bursting into tears (tiny steps of progress?)<P>the situation as a whole? baby born dec. she is his.<BR>CS? thus far we don't know OW lived in CA temporarily and after fiance beat her up, left him and had to go on aid 3 months...CA will of course want that back, i'm sure, haven't heard how much yet.<P>we had spoken at great length about what to do, what's right, etc. we live on the other side of the country mow and don't feel 1 visit a year is a father, and she'd be better off w/o the feeling of why does daddy live w/ them (our kids) instead of me? we want to wish them well and forget them. we planned out exactly what he should say, he planned it to where it sounded so good, not mean, but caring, etc...<P>he phones her and it goes to hell...i think speaking to her hurts im (disgust w/ himself) i end up talking to her, doesn't go well at first but then explain how we feel. she doesn't really understand how he doesn't want pictures (but i give her credit for asking instead of just sending them) how he doesn't see the OC as 'family'. that OC deserves to know her dad and siblings (i'll be damned!!). more of the same old.... did say that she doesn't want to get CS, but needs help temporarily if we can ($20 here and there) until she turns 21 and can get a better paying job...only wants to work out permanent CS if he wants relationship with OC. we'll see...<BR>she claims she doesn't want OC to suffer and I've told her that we don't either, and its up to her. don't tell OC that daddy didn't want you, that he made that choice...tell her that he COULDN'T be the dad she deserved and felt it was best to let them get on with their lives...<P>things i struggle with:<BR>-how do i get over the loss of my little family, that there's a kid 'out there'? hubby wants a third child someday, i can't forget that it'd be his 4th...<BR>-how to get over the fear of a knock on the door 18 years later...<P>the affair itself...the one thing i though he'd never do..his stupidity!!...that HE didn't tell me...<P>i've read dr harley's books and told him about POJA, etc...drinking is an issue, and we've POJA'd to 2 nights a week (at home), but he won't read surviving the affiar, my theory is it hurts to remember what he did? <P>good thing, no fog for him (foggy on what happened and why, but not the fog harley describes), never had to plan A/B...being basically a PA and he already left the job there was no contact, etc...<P>I honestly think i'd be 'recovered' (for the most part, i still have moments of weakness, lack of trust, etc) if it weren't for OC...<P>well, I think I've probably worn out my welcome with such a looong post, but i thank any of you who managed to read this to the end!! -I swear i don't usually ramble this much, but have to admit it is theraputic...

Wow, I'd say you had a lot to say if you've been lurking since last summer! Jeez, I don't think I could have kept my long winded self bottled up that long.<P>Now onto more serious matters. Welcome to our very sad sad club. I feel honored to be the first to welcome you, especially since I'm up at 3:34am and the competition is so heavy at this time! <P>You sound very sane and adapting pretty well. You can probably agree to the fact that the pain dulls a little with each passing week.<P>From what I could tell you really had only two questions. One was the OC and guilt of no contact and the other wasn't really a question, but it seems like you are troubled by the fact that you have "relapses" with lack of trust, etc.<P>Well the easier one to deal with is the relapses. They are natural. And some of the old timers can tell you better than I (i'm only 5 months into recovery) that they will come less frequent and not be as intense over time. At least that's what the wise ones have told me on this forum.<P>Now the OC issue. That's a whole can of worms. One of the things I like to premise with when I talk about my family's decisions regarding OC is that its just that... our family's decision. Every singe couple and every single situation is different. What is good for my family may not be good for yours or the next person. I can only tell you my story, and hopefully some people who has chosen no contact and people who have chosen contact will come along and tell you theirs. From that you can start to analize your own situation and talk over the decisions with your H and do what's best for your family.<P>Forgive me for sake of time I will paste some stuff I wrote in another post tonight that applies.<P>My story in short. Two days after my birthday last year was my d-day. I have been married 4.5 years. We have a son 4.5 and a daughter 2. I am a workaholic and left the raising of our kids and keeping of the house to my husband. Note, he has worked two jobs all our marriage. Among other things I now accept my contribution to the breakdown of our marriage. But, I do not feel the affair was my fault. How he dealt with the breakdown was his choice and his alone. <P>How we came to include OC in our lives....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I agreed because I don't ever want the burden of knowing that I denied a child their knowing their parent. I don't want my husband resenting me when the child comes knocking on his door at 16 wanting to know "what's wrong with me why didn't you love me?" I don't want to find out one day that the OW was abusing this child and had my H been involved we could have saved that "innocent" victim. I don't want my children asking me why I denied them a blood sister. <P>I refuse to have these burdens on my shoulders. If my husband chooses to put them on his.... that's his choice. But I will have a clean conscious.<P>The result of his indiscretion is his to deal with as he chooses. As his wife (since I've chosen to stay) is to support him in decisions he makes regarding his offspring, illegitimate or not. <P>What I do ask in return for my support? I ask that he respect my feelings and wishes regarding OW. That he understand I may not love this child right away. That he understand I will have moments of anger, sadness, resentment all because I have a constant reminder of his infidelity present, and he not hold those moments against me. I ask that he love me, and nurture our relationship and always, above all else, put our family first if a choice has to be made.<P>I'm happy to report... it's been rocky, but so far so good!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Like I said there will be some women along tomorrow that have chosen no contact and can give you the reasons they chose that for their families.<P>I hope your healing continues. Thanks for coming out of your shell and finally posting. Keep coming back, there's a lot of great people here and we don't always talk about suck somber subjects!<P><P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

DumbStruck, Hey dont worry about the long post. In a way yours and mine sound alot alike. We have no contact with oc as far as guilt I dont have any that all belongs to ow. I decided to give that to her since thats were it belongs. I really dont know what we will do when oc shows up I guess thats going to depend on what the ow does to the kids head in between now and then. Sorry you have to be dealing with this, good you decided to post we need all the different input we can get. When catnip gets back she has a wonderful way of making everyone feel better hopefully that will be soon. with love flowerseed

Dear Dumbstruck,]<P>Unfortunatley I have no time to write and probabably wont until Monday but I wanted to cry when I read your post. Our circumstances were a little different, but the way it was handled sounds a lot alike. Enough alike where it really got me where it hurt. Will write later..just wanted to say I am sorry to have to welcome you to our family.<P>Love and Prayers,<P>broken_wings

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zebrababy:<BR><B><BR>....You sound very sane and adapting pretty well. You can probably agree to the fact that the pain dulls a little with each passing week.....<P>From what I could tell you really had only two questions. One was the OC and guilt of no contact and the other wasn't really a question, but it seems like you are troubled by the fact that you have "relapses" with lack of trust, etc.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Sane...well, that's this week <BR>The pain does dull, but then at times I wonder if I am a fool, maybe he just learned to cover his tracks better?? if she hadn't gotten preg. would I have ever known? to be honest, I still can't believe what he did!-hence the name-(all thoughts bombing through my head last week) I suppose we should revisit that sanity theory, then again these relapses always occur during PMS time... <P><BR>No guilt really, she made the choice to keep. there was guilt at first, but i'd feel more guilty at allowing something to threaten our family. I really just mourn the loss of our 'little family' I never wanted our children to grow up in these 'modern' families that exist today (mom, dad, steps, etc). I strongly believe that a two parent home is the best enviornment, and my kids have become a true testament to the saying "the best thing a father can do for his kids is love their mother (and show it)". its for them that I endured so much crap not even having to do w/ PA..and tried after D-day to repair...and I'm glad I did.<P>I love the man I'm married to now, and just want to forget it all...but there's the fear that one day it'll be at the frount door...<P><BR>I've told hubby that if he wants to be a part of OC's life, than we can do that (from now on, no more 'independent lives' everything is 'united frount')..that I don't want him not to b/c of me, to have regrets later...he doesn't want any contact. at first yes, but only out of obligation, not real desire to. after we went thru pros/cons we don't feel a fraction of a father is any benefit, possibly harm (OC seeing him go home to our kids, etc)..so it was up to how he felt. I went into this a little more in the "OC is affecting me more than I admitted " thread.<P><BR>I'm glad I finially did post, it really helps to sort out thoughts when you're trying to make them understandable to read!!<P>Flowerseed, I was wondering where the ever-wise Catnip went off too, maybe she got real lucky and got amnesia!!!<p>[This message has been edited by DumbStruck (edited April 21, 2001).]

{{{DumbStruck}}}:<P>After reading your post, I, too, was dumbstruck. Not because of its length , but because you have managed to stay by your husband through it all.<P>I am so sorry to hear your pain, but I'm glad you found this place and these people. <P>I'm just a visitor to this board (I usually post on GQII), and I'm afraid I don't have any great insight on how to handle the Fact Of another child out there, but I think that some of the same things that go into recovering from any affair do apply.<P>It is incredibly hard to recover the trust after an affair. I'm sorry your counseling experience was so sour. Sometimes counseling can help--but not from a guy like the one you're describing.<P>Try to take each day just one at a time. Try to work your way through trusting your H for just one day and then moving on from there.<P>I am glad to hear that you have uncovered problems in your marriage--and you didn't uncover them "too late"! Yes, you didn't uncover them before your husband had an affair, but you did it before your marriage was over. I think that addressing those problems goes a long way to making sure your husband has no more affairs.<P>You really sound as though you're doing great under the circumstances. It sounds as though you are well on your way to recovering. It does take time. Lots and Lots of time.<P>I hope some of the other great women on this board can help you work through some of the issues you describe with regard to the OC. <P>All the best to you and to your family.<BR>--HBC

dear dumbstruck,<P>so glad that you have come out of lurking and into posting. you are safe here (except for the occasional intrusion of OW's trying to convince us our H's are still with them, etc etc etc). you can keep details of where you live etc private. sorry you have to be here, but welcome. i remember the relief i felt when i knew i wasn't the ONLY one. keep your faith. you can and will make it through this.<P>happy_girl

Dear Dumbstruck,<P>Like Zebra, I cannot believe that you have lurked so long without posting your story. Still I am glad that you found some comfort in reading the posts here. <P>I also had a terrible counselling experience in the beginning. One really must shop around for counsellors because there are a lot out there who are less than capable. <P>Despite all the pain you sound like you are well on your way to recovery. You are so right -- recovering from the affair is easy compared to adjusting to an OC. Like you, I never wanted what you nicely called a "modern" family. I was brought up in a traditional Catholic home and I expected that marriage meant one husband and children between us only. <P>Sometimes you feel so out of control because there is no way to make this thing right. But, with time, there are ways to make things better. <P>My H and I now have no-contact with the OC. He was having contact in the beginning but I simply could not cope with that. Very long story which I will not tell now. <P>One thing I will tell you is that your feelings will change constantly. Most recently I have told my H that if he chooses to have contact with OC, it is okay with me but I cannot be involved. Still he has opted on his own for no contact. <P>I have struggled with guilt over the OC because she is a child and she should not suffer for the stupidity of the people who created her. But, ultimately, I also feel that I must do what is best for my own family. I have not told my children and I do not intend to. My H also insists that he does not want them to know and to feel any insecurity about the OC's existence.<P>As Zebra also said, we all have moments of weakness and lack of trust. I feel that my H and I are doing great but every once in a while the OC comes into mind or you think of your H with the OW and it all comes back into focus as clear as the day you heard. You will find though that, with time, the pain will not be so intense and the memories will not be so frequent. <P>I am glad that you decided to post because there is a wonderful group of men and women on this site who are always ready to offer comfort and support.<P>Sending prayers your way,<BR>love,<BR>heavenly

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heavenlybody26:<BR><B><BR>Sometimes you feel so out of control because there is no way to make this thing right.....<P>One thing I will tell you is that your feelings will change constantly. Most recently I have told my H that if he chooses to have contact with OC, it is okay with me but I cannot be involved. Still he has opted on his own for no contact. <P>I have struggled with guilt over the OC because she is a child and she should not suffer for the stupidity of the people who created her. But, ultimately, I also feel that I must do what is best for my own family. I have not told my children and I do not intend to. My H also insists that he does not want them to know and to feel any insecurity about the OC's existence.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You hit the nail on the head, all I want to do is "fix" it.<P>I also told H it was up to him about contact w/ OC, but my stipulation is that it would be WITH me (I'd find a way to deal-I refuse to let us fall back into living seperate lives). After discussing pro/cons for our family and OC, we decided against it. Don't feel guilty -There is no real answer, where we're at, we just think OC'd be better off w/o H, not seeing him but once a year at best only to go home to our kids...how can that be good?<P>One thing I tend to struggle with lately is that while I devour Dr. Harley's books, H isn't that interested in the "rules," etc... he's not much for reading anyway, but I want him to read the books...but then it would be unfair of me to demand....<P>right now he's real busy between work/trade school but i'm hoping this fall(school'll be done) he'll pick up a book...but what if not? <P>on the good side, I mentioned the 15 hours and he said he'd love 15 hours of fun with me a week(once we have the time this fall)<P><p>[This message has been edited by DumbStruck (edited April 21, 2001).]

Hi Dumbstruck,<P>Your story struck a chord in me...<BR>I can put myself on the phone when you got that<BR>call. I know that it helps to post and not just read.<BR>Having people respond back to you validates what you<BR>are going through. You sound amazing to me. <BR>Keep up the good work, I know every day is different.<BR>Thanks for writing out your story. Take care, fluke