Gregg,<P>If your wife is continuing the affair, and she has told you that she's in love with both you and the OM, I'd say:<P>1. You're doing a terrific job in Plan A.<P>2. You won't be able to recreate the spark until the affair is over and done with, and your wife has made it through withdrawal.<P><BR>My first line of advice is to call either Steve or Jenn and have a session or two (888-639-1639). It's unclear that you're emotionally "shot" from Plan A, so you could continue it for a while longer. You may want to start having some honest conversations about negotiating your wife away from the OM for good. I'm not sure that the "freedom" you're giving your wife right now is helping the marriage---you're not spending the quality time together needed to rebuild that spark (and while the affair is going it's pointless). You are providing a great service by being a terrific father.<P>Without knowing all the details, I'd suggest that you attempt to negotiate an end to the affair, and try to get your wife to follow the Four Rules for Recovery (same as the rules for a successful marriage). If she's unwilling to do that, wait a bit, but set yourself up to be ready for a Plan B separation. And yes, that's the hardest thing you can do. And I'm afraid that if I were you, I think it'd be best (for the marriage) if YOU left, and your wife was alone to deal with the children. That'll hit home hard---you'll withdraw that terrific family and domestic support.<P>However, if she were willing to leave you with the kids, that would set you up for physical custody of the children post-divorce. It's just a very hard decision---that's why I'd suggest that you talk to the experts.

Hey K,<P> Sorry to dredge up this old thread, but your advice is golden. I have often thought it would be best if I left also. But this is in conflict with the withdrawing of financial support part of plan B, I don't want to lose my house. How do I leave and not take some of the secure home I have provided with me. I don't wan't to just erase mayself from the comfortable(relatively) lifestyle my wife is accustomed to, that would give her even more freedom.<BR> How do I leave and not lose everything I own?<P><BR> God bless you,<BR> <P>------------------<BR>Gregg

Gregg, This is a very good point and a real tough question to answer. I wish I had a good on for you. I am bringing this back up and I am going to be looking for and hoping that K has some great thoughts for you. Prayers to you for the best answers. Peace, Gabi1116

Hey gabi,<P> Thanks, God bless you!<P>------------------<BR>Gregg

That's why you must tell her that her affair is unacceptable and you are no longer willing to financially support her while she is involved and ask her to leave. That way, you will stay in the house with the kids and she will be forced to find out what life is like without you, your home and family...and the financial security you provide.<P>Under the circumstances, she should leave if you request it, unless she is willing to negotiate to end the affair and focus on the marriage and on you.<P>Bystander has the most knowledge in the legalities of your situation but K has the MB Bible engraved on his heart and I would follow his lead on this.<P>Gregg, you've been tortured so long now. It is time for you to make a stand. I will pray for a miracle that your wife wakes up before changes have to be made.<P>Love<P>Catnip =^^=

Gregg,<P>Oh...I just don't know what to say. I see Catnip's point, but K's too. It is like maybe if she has to have all the responsibility all of a sudden, then she will see. But then again, why should YOU leave the house?? You did nothing wrong! <P>She is so used to you being there for her. She is having her cake and eating it too. She needs to feel her world shake a little bit. You have already been there, she hasn't. Give her a sample of what life would be like without you.<P>Prayers for you and your wife to come around.<P>happy_girl

Gregg:<P>Here's the deal. If your wife would leave the house, and leave the kids behind (just as Catnip suggests)---I'm guessing that would be the best overall scenario for you. It would:<P>1. Put financial burden on her (at least somewhat---you could contribute an allowance, if she's not working).<BR>2. Set you up for physical custody in case of a divorce (abandonment of the children).<BR>3. Throw her directly into the OM's arms---probably a good thing at this point in that the fantasy would become reality, and reality never looks as good.<P>If you could negotiate that---it'd be great. But the problem with this (Catnip) is it's a selfish demand on Gregg's part---and there's no real way he can "enforce" it without lovebusting. Gregg, if your wife is anything like mine, I wouldn't have been able to get her to separate from the children. No way. So, if the kids are involved and going to stay with Mom, I think it's then "cruel" to try to get them all to move while you stay put.<P>So for me, Plan B meant moving out. I really had only one close friend around this area (we had just moved)---luckily he was taking his family down to Florida for a vacation, so I crashed there for a week. I then rented a suite in an "extended stay" hotel chain. It's expensive. My plan was to do this for at least 3 months---and then find an apartment (most leases are a year). <P>In my Plan B, I wasn't withdrawing financial support from my wife. She wasn't working so it would have been very harsh, and Steve didn't suggest it (he was OK with the way I was doing this). It's obvious the farther we would have gotten into Plan B, the more the finances would have needed to change. We would have needed for my wife to get a job. Perhaps sell the house. But this would have occurred around the 12 month mark.<P>You ask how you can do this and not lose everything you own. I'm not sure that you can (depends on how much you have). Estimate how much you stand to lose in a divorce. You'll lose less in Plan B, at least for a while. And if you do go to divorce, there will be less to lose as well. In my case, my wife's affair probably cost about $10K, when all is said and done. While that's nothing to sneeze at, it's only money---and I have the potential to make it back pretty quickly. Plan B is feels like stepping off a cliff, and that's why I recommend that you only get to it when you NEED to be there.<P>You also talk about giving your wife more freedom---to be irresponsible and engage in the affair full force. That's part of the Plan, frankly. You should be as isolated as possible---you'll know in your gut that it's happening, but you won't deal with the daily signs. Affairs are fantasy relationships, and they frequently blow up when the partners have free access to each other, and they begin to deal with the stresses of REAL daily life. I'm not sure how old your kids are, but mine were 7 and 3 when I left. My 7 year old apparently was constantly ripping on my wife for making me leave. That'll wear on her too---it's part of the reality (and remember to not be involved in attempting to "set it up").<P>I hope this helps. God bless---and give Steve or Jenn a call to handle specifics.

I think the thrill of an affair is simply "NEWNESS"!! Learning about a person...it's exciting....but like anything else...it get's old...especially once u start to include the drama of kids & everyday functioning life. Greg sounds like u r just really a good man...one that your wife will really eventually end up regretting that she's lost...if it comes to that!! Keep your head up!!<P>Much love......<P>Broke-Down

<BR>I'm reminded of the Monty Python line, "And now for something completely different..."<P>In my view, the custody of the children IS the battle here. Does it seem harsh to ask the wife to move out? Perhaps, but "child support" guidelines are so exhorbitant that once Gregg starts paying CS he will essentially be unable to withdraw financial support. Lets see here, the wife knifes Gregg in the back and has an affair, the wife keeps the house, the wife keeps custody of the children, and Gregg gives her a boatload of tax-free income every month, some of which she uses to subsidize the OM's cocaine habit. Not exactly a legitimate outcome.<P>How about this instead? The wife leaves the house, sets up shop in some dumpy apartment with the OM, pays Gregg through the nose for CS, gets into some ugly LB'ing fights with the OM, decides married life ain't so bad afterall, and moves back home.<P>I'd choose the latter course, for moral reasons (treachery shouldn't be rewarded, Gregg's the stable force in the children's lives right now) if nothing else.<P>Bystander

Bystander (and Gregg):<P>I'm in agreement, in that Gregg should certainly ask his wife to move out. Your scenario is great (it's ideal)---but it is dependant on Gregg's wife agreeing to move out.<P>What if she says no? Then what's the next course of action:<P>1. Physically throwing her out<BR>2. Immediately filing for divorce<BR>3. Moving out himself<BR>4. Staying in Plan A<BR>5. Something else???<P><BR>Most women won't leave their kids behind. I agree that moving out can be a risk (with the punishment of unfair CS), but if Gregg's wife won't move out, what would be the next move?<P>Waiting patiently...<BR>

Gregg, reading this entire thread, I am not sure you are ready for Plan B. And put in your situation it would be very hard for me to up & leave my house & kids, for all the reasons Bystander states.<P>I am adding my 2 cents worth here because I am a living, breathing example of failure to implement a GOOD Plan B. My Plan A was pretty good. But there came a time when I <I>should</I> have acknowledged that my H was: 1) not honest 2) no POJA between us 3) was still seeing OW, even if it was just at work each day... they were in contact & in reality affair was still going on. <P>By the time I finally went into Plan B it was not really due to the fact I wanted to save my marriage, I think it was more from the fact I was just too tired to keep messing with all the stuff. I look back now and see that I had reached that point that the last remnants of love were being killed by my H and his actions. That is what Plan B is supposed to <I>prevent</I>. I think I was just ready to see things die, since all that was left in my heart was emptiness. <P>Please don't let yourself get where I did. I think a Plan B a few months ago would have worked and perhaps my H and I would have stood a chance. It is just such a fine line on when to deploy this plan. Sort of like pulling out Agent Orange to kill a few weeds. Very tricky and harmful if not properly done. <P>But I am with Bystander on you staying in house with kids and her moving out. Or is it possible to have an agreement that you leave for one week & her the next? The main point being that you are not trying to seperate her from children, but her from YOU. You may have to get very creative here. There is no "traditional" way of doing this. So if you feel the way to Plan B is to put her up into an apartment (this is radical huh???) then you do it. Also, set up a specific time period for Plan B and expect something to come about at end of that time period. Again, I am telling you all this <I>not</I> because I did a good Plan B but because I did a <I>terrible</I> Plan B. I <BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI> waited too long to start<BR><LI> allowed too much access to me<BR><LI> never told kids about what was going on (they just thought dad was traveling a lot)<BR><LI> never allowed my h to feel any real consequences from his actions with me & kids<BR><LI> let him drain ALL my love for him<BR></UL><P>So.... if you intend to end up like me (in a divorce) then by all means just do as I did. I allowed him to kill all my love for him. <P>Take care Gregg. Keep loving them kids & your wife. Just also keep in mind what the real goal is. Carolyn <P>

<BR>K legitimately asks:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What if she says no? Then what's the next course of action:<P>1. Physically throwing her out<BR>2. Immediately filing for divorce<BR>3. Moving out himself<BR>4. Staying in Plan A<BR>5. Something else???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Gregg's predicament is yet another in a long litany of reasons why I think custody laws should be written so that each parent has a presumption of 50% joint physical custody. Because women win most contested custody cases, Gregg has very little real leverage here, when because of his wife's affair he should have all the leverage in the world.<P>Alright, here's my answer. Gregg should see a lawyer on the sly and find out exactly how much power he really has. His decision will depend on what he hears, but its going to boil down to one of three outcomes, more or less:<P>(1) Gregg will become a noncustodial parent and pay extortionary CS,<P>(2) Gregg will get roughly 50% joint custody and assuming his wife works, he won't pay too much in CS,<P>(3) Gregg will become the custodial parent and his wife will pay CS through the nose.<P>Here's the reality: If Gregg moves out, #1 is automatic. That means his wife will be using "child support" to subsidize the OM's cocaine habit. Not a good outcome at all. Gregg CANNOT let #1 happen, and thus he CANNOT move out. Gregg, trust me on this - do NOT move out. You WILL lose a custody fight, you WILL pay extortionary CS, and your wife WILL use the money to go on dates with the OM.<P>Gregg's got to think strategically, and that means maximizing his probability of winning a custody fight. To do that, he needs to establish himself as the "primary caregiver" in the eyes of the court. He should specifically ask his lawyer how he can accomplish that goal. Frankly, in my view, he can't save his marriage unless he gets at least 50% custody. He's GOT to crack a financial whip across his wife's back and make it sting. I'm not a fan of deception, but I don't even think Gregg should tell his wife that he's moving to establish himself as the "primary caregiver."<P>Bystander

Bystander:<P>We're pretty much (as usual) in agreement. Seeing a lawyer is a good thing. And I completely agree that this ought to be done behind his wife's back (in fact, Steve H said that in this Plan B setup, the Rule of Complete Honesty gets suspended---you're in self-preservation mode). In my case, I had one of the best lawyers in the state---he felt that me leaving was only "slightly" risky, but agreed that the chance of recovering the marriage was probably higher (I love having a legal pitbull who SUPPORTS marriage, BTW).<P>Well Gregg---we're hoping that should you decide to do Plan B, that she'll move out.

Most women would also not allow their children to come to harm like this by layering on multiple fathers, etc. Never assume you know what the other person will or will not do. Gregg, get yourself the very best FEMALE family law attorney in town. Before doing Plan B, make sure you have as much knowledge as possible about what your alternatives are and your wife's alternatives. That is in the best interest of your children. Remember that. Carolyn

Dear Gregg,<P>I don't usually comment on legal advice, but I have a great deal of feeling for what you have been through and I think you need the support.<P>K, Bystander and Takingcare have given you excellent advice on a number of counts. Establishing yourself as the custodial parent is definitely the way to go, but be sure that you make your inquiries discreetly and do not let on to your W at all. You would be surprised how quickly women in this situation, upon realizing that they are about to lose their meal ticket, turn legally savvy and pull the trap before you can do it.<P>A female family lawyer is an excellent strategy in a case of this type. Although it should not happen, court decisions are still heavily influenced by stereotypes. The image of a high powered male attorney trying to pry innocent children from their mother is not a particularly good one. On the other hand, if a woman believes in your case, the court will assume that there is some credence to your claim.<P>You've fought a good fight, now you must start your contingency plan for your own protection and that of the children you love.<P>love,<BR>heavenly

Gregg,<P>I always have a hard time responding to the posts like this for you and Floored. I almost feel guilty that I have moved past the point at which your wives are at, and I honestly can't understand why they have chosen the road they are on. I wish that I could offer you some advice, but I have none at this time. I do feel that you should follow the advice you have received so far, as it seems to be the best for you and the children. All I can offer at this time is my support and prayers in your decision. I really wish that I could offer you some insight to what your wife is thinking and feeling, but I never chose that road to travel. Again, I will continue to pray that the decision you make is the right one, and that your wife will open her eyes, without those blinders on.<P>Tigger

Hey Guys,<P> My God , I was unprepaired for this response!! I would respond individualy, but I don't think I can. Heree are some points of clarification, though.<BR> My wife would move out if I asked her to, in fact, she has tentetative plans to live with her grandma already. Hell, she's almost there anyway, she's gone 3-4 nights a week.<BR> One snag is my oldest daughter, Linzi. I would like for her to finish the school year without being uprooted, grandma is 30 minutes north.<BR> My wife insists she will not deny OM visitation. My take on this is that she has put his needs above mine and Linzis'! She says SHE is the the one who will have to live with the fact that she didn't let Angel see her father. ( More dysfunctional, childhood trauma, psychobabble!)<BR> Should I ask her to leave now, or wait until Linzi is out of school?<P><BR> Again, I was unprepaired for this response!! Thank you all so much. You are friends in the truest sence!!<BR> I also know you guys know how hard it is to get tough with the person you love most in the world. I am feeling this big-time!<P> God bless you all, your the best!! <P>------------------<BR>Gregg

Dear gregg,<BR>This may seem like a silly question, but it is the obvious one: Cant you insist that Linzi stays with you? If nothing else, you could say that you want her to be able to finish the school year in the same school.<BR>-cd

Hey cd, <BR> <BR> Yes I could , and W would probably agree, to allow Linzi to finish school. But permanently, W says no way.<BR> A few other things; Wife has allready comented that she's not sure she could live with OM, as they are in disagreement on too many basic issues, primarily parenting techniques. She also aknowledges that we had all these things worked out before we got married.<BR>I don't know if reality is starting to set in, or if she's just telling me what she thinks I want to hear.<BR> When she's gone for a few days, she always tells me that she missed me, like she's testing herself.<BR> She also says one reason she is gone overnight is that she doesn't want to explain to Linzi why she keeps coming home without Angel.<P> It's like being on a rollercoaster!!( I hate rollercoasters!)<P> God bless you,<P>------------------<BR>Gregg

<BR>Gregg,<P>In addition to CD's question, is your wife planning on moving out and leaving the children with you? If so, that is ideal IMO. Go talk to a lawyer and find out when you should formally file for temporary custody (it will probably be sooner than later). Arrangements in which the children are split up should be avoided. They aren't good for the children, and the court will have a huge bias to put the children back together under the mother's custody. I hate to put it this way, but if you can talk your wife into leaving the children with you, DO IT. Then get a temporary custody order in place, then file for CS on her. Once the financial strain settles in, her fantasy won't be maintained.<P>Bystander