Hello everyone. I'm sorta new here. I came here just over a year ago, looked around the site, read a lot, printed out the questionnaires to do them with my wife, but it never happened.

To make a LONG story short, I have been married for almost 4 years, monogomous with my wife for about 7 years. Things used to be great for us.

I noticed a big down-turn in her about 1.5 years ago. In Jan of '01 we bought a house and moved out of the city and into the country. She was exstatic as she couldn't stand the neighborhood we were in, nor living in an appt. For the next 6 mos. everything seemed great. She was no longer depressed a lot and lost a ton of weight. I could tell she was happy. Then something fell apart. She started closing herself off to me, slowly but surely. Now, our marriage is in shambles.

Do I know what happened? Sorta. I know that when she first moved in, I was living with my twice divorced bro, and we were developing quite the alcohol problem. When she moved in, I curtailed drinking to only on the weekends, which was cool (she doesn't drink). I hadn't noticed in the past 1-2 years that I was back to drinking daily. WHen I drink that much, I lash out at her and say mean and hurtful things that I don't really mean. These things she's been harbouring inside her, causing her pain all this time, and she can't let go. After a 5 day emotional blowout, let me share that I have not had a drop, and I don't plan to for quite some time. I can't say NEVER will I have another beer, but I need to clean myself up to repair my marriage.

We have talked about going to counseling, but there's a problem there. She's been divorced before and been thru counseling before. She felt she had a hard time openning up to the counselor because she was afraid of what would happen when she and her ex got home and the counselor wasn't there. She's now convinced herself that if we aren't living apart, counseling will never work. From an economic standpoint, we're overextended as it is. We only have 1 car (that we can barely afford) and it takes both our checks to cover the mortgage and the bills. It's impossible to think about getting a 2nd car and an appt as well.

I don;t know what to do. Once again I have printed out the questionnaires and this time I intend to work on them together. She still hasn't told me everything. She knew I had no idea of what I had done, and could see I was emotionally shattered over the weekend, and didn't want to hurt me more. So I guess Round 4 is tonight, but she wants to include talking about counseling. She has affirmed to me that she still loves me and never wants to leave me, but she can't let go of what I've done to her to hurt her.

The whole can of worms was openned by yours truely because I noticed being neglected and brought it (and some other concerns) up to her. Now I'm in a position where my concerns mean nothing compared to what I've done to her, and after dealing with all that, she still has trouble looking me in the eye, won't take any initiative to be physical (not hold my hand, not kiss me, nothing!) and don't even mention sex, because that's just non-existant right now.

Oh, one last point...we both travel for our jobs and are on the road a lot. We hardly see each other as it is.

sorry for the long post.

HM,

I'm so sorry to hear about your pain. There are many vets on this message boards who can offer you greater wisdom and more sound advice, with regards to Marriage Builders, than I but I wanted to respond if for no other reason, than to let you know you're not alone. I don't make it into this section of the message board too often, so I don't know how much traffic there is in this part and I'm not familiar with which posters are most available here, but I'd like to suggest you put a copy of your post in the EN section. That's where I usually post and I know there are some very wise posters there!

There is one thing I'd like to suggest. Do you have an extra bedroom in your home? Maybe you could commit to your wife that you will move into the extra bedroom and you will not attempt to discuss your issues with her outside of counseling until she feels safe doing so. That might give her the physical distance and emotional safety she needs. My H(husband) and I are also separated and I can understand the financial strain involved in maintaining separate households. My best advice is to act to meet her emotional needs (there is a lot of info on this site, if you haven't already seen it, about meeting emotional needs) and show that you want to protect her from being hurt by you.

Kudos on stopping the drinking! That's the first step in getting things straightened out. I would also like to recommend you get some kind of counseling for your drinking so that you don't relapse. I say this because of your comment about not promising to ever have a drink again. Just one might lead you down a slippery slope! If you don't feel strong enough to stop forever on your own, please reach out for help! It's obvious you love your W(wife) and you've certainly come to the right place!

God Bless,

jen

Don't move out of the bedroom! Don't pressure her but maintain presence. Advice comes from some counselors who did a seminar a couple of weeks ago where I go to church.

Don't drink.

Work on meeting her emotional needs.

Have you read Financial Peace by Dave Ramsey? It might help with the financial situation. Won't be a fast fix but might help you get a grip on that part of your life. One of his basic theories is that you must have a budget and you should pay CASH - not charge or checks - for as much as you can.

Well, it's been 3 days off the sauce so far. I know at least for myself that this is an acheivement. Honestly abstaining isn't the hard part. The hard part would be having just one. It's easier to go without then to try to moderate for me, and that's why I am going without.

Last night went horrible. I printed out the questionnaires and hoped that it would help us. We only got as far as doing the EN and LB ones. She read my EN first and that was about the end of that. I read her EN and LB, and I found it a learning experiance. I thought it was very positive to learn these things about her, but she only felt hurt by my ENs. She apparently had a wicked nightmare about me last night that she doesn't want to share, but got very little sleep. Rec. Needs was something that ranked high for her, and she listed specific ones. I thought it would help to plan one of these for the upcomming weekend. I wrote her about it (email, since we're working) and she declined. Canoeing is teamwork, and she doesn't think we make a good team. She was too hurt by my EN and my comments about personal appearance (frequency of showering was an issue of mine). She says she doesn't even want to look at me. Regardless of your advice Cinderella, I have offered to move into the spare room. She really feels the need to seperate (even though she says she doesn't want to) and I think at least if we're in the same house there's more hope then if we seperate. Besides, if the sight of me hurts her, then at least she'll get a good night's sleep.

Everything I seem to do or try seems to hurt her. I am at my wits end. I think we need some serious counseling help, both as a couple, and her as an individual (althought I wouldn't suggest this to her) She harbours issues from her past and can't get over them. She needs help in learning how to do that. We need help in communication and relationship repair. Does anyone know a good counselor they can recommend?

Hi HM,

I'm so proud of your 3-day sobriety! Keep up the good work. I know it can't be easy, but you gotta stick with this - that's another area where counseling can really come in handy.

Next, take a deep breath and relax a little. Don't be discouraged by your W's disinterest in your offer for RC. She's going to need some time to come around. She's going to need consistency from you for a while before she can begin to believe that your change of heart is sincere and here to stay. Don't give up! Don't be discouraged! Just try to be patient and let her take the time she needs to calm her own emotional storms.

I think counseling is a wonderful idea, as I mentioned in my previous post. I think you can get counseling sessions with the Harleys, although I don't know any specifics about that. I'll let others make counseling recommendations because my H won't even consider it, so I don't happen to know any.

A word of caution, make sure you try to keep an eye on the fine line between meeting her ENs and smothering her. If she doesn't feel free to say no, she can't whole-heartedly say yes. When she says no, take it gracefully and not personally. I'm sure that right now, she's as confused as you are and she needs time to sort out her own feelings.

The idea is, take this time to work on you. Make yourself more attractive to her as best you know how and avoid putting undue pressure on her or LBing. It may take a few weeks, but I think you'll see progress.

In the meantime, we're all here for you. Good luck and God Bless,

Jen

I'm just a Hurt Machine
And I won't hurt for nobody but you

hoo hoo

I'm just a Hurt Machine
And I won't hurt for nobody but you

hoo hoo

sorry, immature I know but I just had to do that.

Jen, you are a saint! Thank you so much for the words of encouragement. You've hit the nail on the head on more then one thing. She mentionned in her EN q's that for Affection, it's not very important to her, and she's not a "huggy kissy" person. Although she says she hasn't changed, she used to kiss me every morning in bed before she left for work (when she used to have to get up before me). She also mentionned feeling smothered. It's hard to "back down" when affection is something VERY important to me, but I will do my best to give her space.

I think it best that SHE pick the counserlor, and she's made it apparent (her comment about MB was that 'it was DEFINATELY written by a MAN') she needs a female counselor. Both our work's offer referral services, so if I don't hear from someone I'm not totally in the dark.

As for working on myself, this is the same advice our neighbor (her closest friend, and a close friend of mine) mentionned to me. With the quitting of drinking I know my weight is going to start dropping quick. Also, my appetite (food is my 2nd love along with cooking) hasn't been there because of all thats going on. When we met I was 270, and now I am 310 (I'm 6'4"), so I know that I will start to drop the pounds which will help me. She HAS expressed serious concerns about my health (I'm a smoker with Asthma, Sleep Apnea, and High Blood Pressure), so I want to get these things looked into too, and maybe now is the time to focus on that. I sure as hell need to focus on something because apparently I just make our situation worse. I really don't want to seperate from her, and she tells me she doesn't either. But her past experiances w/ Counseling has jaded her into believing it won't work if we're still living together.

Its also hard not to have your ENs recognized as valid. She thinks she can't live up to my image of her, and doesn't see that she already has, things have just changed.

Once again, thanks for the advice. I will do my best to follow it and give her the space she needs. Hopefully it won't mean a seperation.

Thanks for being here.

Hey HM,

Glad I could help, you sound much better now than you did before, but I would just like to point out one thing.

I'm not a saint! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Seriously, I'm just like everyone else here, stumbling through my own marriage, making mistakes and trying to learn something useful from them and trying to apply MB principles to a marriage that's failing -or that was failing, we'll see. Anyway, what I have to offer is simply my own humble and somewhat subjective opinion. I may not always be right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I just want you to remember as you make your way through this discussion forum, that most here are not experts, but just people who have life (and MB) experience to offer. Sometimes it makes good sense and you get excellent advice, and sometimes it's a little flawed. Just want you to be careful. Take care and God Bless,

Jen

PS - When I said to make yourself more attractive to her, I meant emotionally - you know behavior, attitude, etc. I certainly wasn't suggesting she thinks you're not physically attractive! Just wanted to throw that in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen

Doniker....funny? YES! And right up my sense of Humour's alley! I didn't tink of that when I picked the name, and (like it or not) I will not be able to forget it now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And Jen, thanks again. I appreciate the word of caution, and although I may be newto this site, W and I run a forum about nothing (Sienfeld-esque?) and I'm well aware that some people have good advice and some don't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I still meant what I said.

Last night went OK. As I mentionned I had offered to sleep in the spare room, and we had agreed not to have any emotionally draining conversation. We spent most of the night talking and laughing about other things, and having a good time. I know she is ultra sensitive about things right now, and so we just talked about other stuff. I almost deluded myself into thinking that things were back to normal, it went so well. Unfortunately, she never asked me to come back to bed, which I was kinda hopeing for. It's the first time we ever slept together/apart except for one or 2 nights of our honeymoon in Jamaica after forgetting to use sunscreen because we were both badly burnt. I was a restless night for me. I don't know if I can do it again tonight.

Jen,
When you say "more emotionally attractive" can you expand on that a bit. I'm male, so I'm not sure what you mean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I know it's emotions that have made me unattractive to her ( and since ended our sex life), but I'm not sure I understand the whole concept.

Thanks.

Well, first of all let me just say something about how your evening went last night.

AWESOME PLAN A!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If I'm not mistaken, that's what a good plan A is supposed to do! You're supposed to be meeting her ENs without LBing and without expectations that she will necessarily do the same for you. The result should be that you can enjoy each other and feel good about things despite the fact that there are issues. It sounds like that's exactly what happened last night.

Go HurtMachine! Go Hurtmachine! Go Hurtmachine!

Anyway, as far as being emotionally attractive, I just mean knowing her ENs and striving to meet them in ways that she can appreciate. Basically, just showing her that you care about her needs more than your own right now. To be emotionally attractive, you have to show her that her needs matter and that you love her enough to set self aside. It sounds like you're doing that so far, so just keep it up. Does that explain it? I seem to be stumbling on this one.

As far as her not asking you to come to bed, I know that hurts. It's hard to release her from your hopes and expectations and it hurts when she doesn't come through. But just remember, a good plan A should help her to come around eventually. So just keep trying to be patient and give her some time trust that this new and improved you is the real thing. It may be a while before she trusts you enough to believe that you won't just revert right back to your old ways the minute she gives you what you need to feel comfortable again.

God Bless,

jen

Thanks for the additional explanation Jen. Perhaps I should stay in the spare room again, and wait for her to tell me I don't have to? I agree that providing a safe home space free from stress and emotional conflict is going to help more then anything else I have been trying. I hope it's enough of a plan A. MY problems with trying to get a good plan A going is that most of her ENs that I was deficient in were "all the X I need, but it's not the way I like it" and she was in NO WAY constructive in her comments about how I could improve. She used that section of the questionnaire to bring up LBs.

Thanks for the advice Jen! It's nice to have you there to listen and give me an opinion from a W's perspective, even though our situations may be completely different.

Hey HM,

Just one more thought. What she's saying to you about the ENs is that she acknowledges your effort, but that the effort is misdirected. This is where negotiating comes in. Read about that on MB under Basic Concepts. You just need to find out how you can redirect your effort to better satisfy her needs. She may not be ready for this yet, but I would just let her know that in looking over her EN, that's what you noticed and you'd like to set aside some time, when she's ready, to have a discussion about this. Let her know you're willing to try new approaches to meeting her ENs, you just need her help in figuring out how to do that. Most women (self-included) have the attitude that if they have to tell you want they want, it just isn't the same when you do it. Foolishness!! If she tells you want she wants and you do it (or at least try), that means you're listening and you care! What more can a girl ask for?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes, I would continue to sleep in the spare room until she invites you back in. But be sure that you let her know that you will stay there unless she extends the invitation. Otherwise, she could be waiting for you to ask and you'll be waiting for her to ask and well, it's plain to see where I'm going with that.

Good job so far! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Stay sober, stay strong, God Bless,

jen

Thanks again Jen! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I will definately make it clear that I will give her the space she feels she needs until she's ready to invite me back. I will also try to do this without implying guilt. She's well aware (since I travel for work) that I can't stand not being in bed with HER, and I'm sure she understands this is a sacrafice for me. I also know what guests at my house have had to put up with bed-wise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

As for approaching her about her ENs, I think she's just not ready to go there yet. For the comments she made that were constructive, I need to follow those leads, so that she understands that I'm listening to her needs and trying to satisfy them. When we get there, then I think I can approach the "how can I better satisfy your ENs?" discussion. Agreed?

We've had some good convo today from work, and both of us are being very polite with lots of "thank you's" and whatnot. She's even admitted that she's been "ultra-sensitive" lately. I hope this isn't just her burying her feelings until she can get out and we can get in counseling. I'm hopeing that it's more like she's seeing the return of who she fell in love with, no matter how skeptical she may be.

We'll see what happens tonight.

Good Luck! I'll be on pins and needles! LOL

The counselors did suggest that, if sleeping in the same bed was not an option, that you go to twin beds. A mat on the floor. Whatever will keep you in the room. Leaving creates a wall between you.

But I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what these two counselors recommended.

I would also recommend counseling. Individual for you both and, when you are in better places, couples counseling. Remember that you can not fix a damaged marriage unless you fix the people first.

And, if drinking is a problem in the marriaged, you might consider AA as a wonderful tool. Many people, through the strength found there, are able to maintain their sobriety for years.

I have been in a co-addict group and it was extremely helpful. Extremely. I highly recommed 12-step groups.

<small>[ July 30, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]</small>

Don't you just hate it when you double post?

<small>[ July 30, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: cinderella ]</small>

Last night went without a hitch. She knew I'd be working late and made dinner (since she was going to be home early. I always do all the cooking so I really appreciated this, and was certain to let her know. We had another night without discussing anything about our relationship.

I can't say it was a good night for me. We have been talking about going to a certain movie (that's about to leave the theaters) and I brought it up as a possible weekend plan. She told me that she was planning on getting together with a girlfriend from work on Sunday for dinner. She's never done this before, nor made plans that would involve using our only car without telling me, but I tried to not let me being hurt show, and thanked her for letting me know her plans. Then when I suggested Sat. she told me that a member of our website that she's chatted with for over a year (OM?) was moving to the area (about 1.5 hrs away, instead of in S Carolina) and they had tentative plans to get together. She knows I can be a jealous guy, but I just said that if the plans workout, then I would take her to the train so she could go see him, so that I could have the car. I also asked (before I said anything to either plan) if these were plans she was planning to invite me on, or do without me. She answered "Without you". I did calmly tell her later that I was sorry if I seemed a little taken aback by her w/e plans, but it's a sensitive time for me, and this is a new thing, and it's hard for me to "get used to it". I felt it was only fair to let her know without LBs that I may not be enthusiastic about her plans. It's possible that she made plans for the w/e thinking that I would be drinking, and now wanting to be around. When she brought up the drinking as a problem, my initial response was that I would restrict it to the w/e. I did not tell her that I would give it up completely. I think she feels it's something I like, and she doesn't want to "change" me or give me reason to resent her.

I told her last night that I would continue to sleep in the spare room until she was ready for me to come back to the bedroom, so my intentions of givingher the space she feels she needs were clear. When I went to bed last night I hugged her, and after the hug, I looked her in the eye and said "I miss you". She turned away and went to the main bedroom. I have never felt so alone and unwanted. I know she cares about me, and if she didn't still love me, she would have left already. She even searched the whole house with me looking for extra blankets before bed last night (because it was a cold night and I'm used to the heated waterbed we used to share).

I don't know how much longer I can keep up with Plan A. My taker keeps wanting to be heard, and it takes so much to supress that. Its so hard to not know your future or plans together.

I sent her an email at work this morning, to ask if she wanted to talk about the future together tonight. I mentionned that if she was ready, I wanted to her her opinions and her desires. That I had not listened to her for too long, and knew now how she felt "a drift". I mentionned that I have noticed how she has started to change to, and clean up after herself (which was an issue of mine) and that I wanted her to know I was ready to listen and as long as we talked about the future and not the past that I think we can talk about the future without having emotionally draining conversation.

I'm waiting for a response, but the hurting for me is just growing daily. I'm so afraid of the big D. A close mutual friend told me the ol "if you love someone set them free, and if they don't come back then it wasn't meant to be". It's just so hard to consider that, because it may give the wrong impression that I don't want her anymore.

I continue to need some serious help

EDIT: I called her (after talking with our mutual friend who she has been talking to daily) and appologized for the email. I was made to understand that it's still being controlling and smothering to try and discuss things when she isn't ready. I suppose I was fortunate enough that she hadn't read it yet, and got the appology for it first. I may bein pain, but if she needs space, I have to deal with that pain so that she gets what she thinks she needs. IF she comes to the conclusion that I'm what she wants, she'll come to me. IF she decides that I'm not what she wants, I'll have to deal with the D. I need to STICK with my plan A no matter how hard it is.

<small>[ July 31, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Hurt Machine ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She knows I can be a jealous guy, but I just said that if the plans workout, then I would take her to the train so she could go see him, so that I could have the car. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly, this bothers me a little HM. I can understand that you're trying not to LB. But I think you're in doormat territory here. If you really think this might be an EA-type thing, you shouldn't be supporting or condoning it. What should you do? I don't know if I have a good answer for that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did calmly tell her later that I was sorry if I seemed a little taken aback by her w/e plans, but it's a sensitive time for me, and this is a new thing, and it's hard for me to "get used to it". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pretty good, I think. You stayed calm with no obvious LBs. One word of caution, this might be perceived as a guilt trip by her. It might be better if you could say, "I feel hurt when you make weekend plans without me because..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I went to bed last night I hugged her, and after the hug, I looked her in the eye and said "I miss you". She turned away and went to the main bedroom. I have never felt so alone and unwanted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTDT at least 20 times. I guess this is a sign of withdrawal, not sure. But my H does this kind of stuff all of time since we separated. I finally have quit telling him things like this that almost "require" a similar response because it definitely hurts when he doesn't say it back. That might not be a good thing, though because then I'm retreating into my own version of withdrawal by not offering him those sentiments. Kind of confusing, I know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My taker keeps wanting to be heard, and it takes so much to supress that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure about this, hopefully we'll get some vets in here to help, but I don't think you're necessarily supposed to fully supress your taker. I think it's more a question of diverting your taker's needs in a different direction. See any post or reply written by Zorweb. In her signature line is a link to a thread about Plan A and Doormathood. Very good information, sheds a lot of light on Plan A and how to execute. Might be very helpful to you.

I know how hard this is. Just hang in there. I'm going to get you some vets to help you out with this. I'm pretty good at being supportive, but I just don't have the MB expertise that you need right now.

Take care and God Bless,

Jen

I don't have a lot of help to offer (sorry) but I do have a husband that I feel drinks too much. You seem to be doing realy well in a lot of ways, but you're rushing quite a bit!! Three days is brilliant, but how long have you been drinking for? Years? At this stage it would take my H not drinking for as long as he has been drinking for me to trust that the change is permanent.

I think it's realy important to be honest too. That can be hard when something is realy upsetting and you are trying to deal with it calmly, but you need to communicate that you're not happy with something!