momshurting,MyCross<BR>If that is the case. I'm one that has referred to the oc as [censored] child which is a illegitimate child which is a child born out of wedlock. It really has nothing to do with the oc my anger when using that term is towards the courts and the laws that help and incourage ow to use babies to distroy families. Kids in school can be very mean and unfortantly some of these oc will end up being called that to there faces not by us but by there peers. No matter how you put it the oc in my life to me is a mistake born out of lies, deceit and betrayel and how will this person not know this when he is an adult and learns of his conseption it is sad but thats what happens when you make babies with married men and keep them to use as pawns as if your playing a game. That is how I feel and I will not say I am sorry for something I had no part in. I'm sad for the child that there are such rotten people in this world as the ow that tried to distroy my family and uses a child as a weapon.Again there is no hate in me towards oc only saddness. Hope this clears things up a bit. with love flowerseed<p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited April 30, 2001).]

Just my two cents. I do not hate the OC, but I do not embrace her either. I just learned of her existence 2-3 months ago. The only way I can deal with her is to imagine her as the OW's child, not my H"s child. NOt to do that at this point would make me crazy. I know it deep in my bones. My H did not enter into the affair for a child, but I believe the OW did-she had no children, always wanted kids, just left a marriage, was in her late 30s and biological clock was ticking. She felt strongly about wanting to keep the child and raise it as hers-so she has, even though H encouraged abortion and/or adoption.She refused both and his part in decision was taken away from him and now he and I pay huge CS payments that forever ties us to his deceit, betrayal of our marriage, and contact with OC indirectly. She originally said she would raise child alone, no expectations from him, and he tried to tell her how difficult that would be as single mother.She would not listen to him, until 6 months after birth she filed for child support and then expected him to be a father. <BR>I do not wish OC ill will, but neither do I want her in my life either. I am tired of people worrying about OC-what about the children of the marriage who are truly the innocents here? I agree with others who have posted who are standing up for their own children and protecting them. I will always protect my kids from any danger-and I see what OW and H have done as danger to my kids. I see H as good father, despite his mistakes, and losing him would be painful for my kids, so for them I am working with H on this. But OW had no regard for me, my children, or my family when she entered into a relationship with my H. She did not care that pregnancy and CS would be taking away from my family, disrupt our lives, damage it in ways we may not recover. She is doing nothing to repair our life-all I ask of her is to stay away from us, leave us alone, and hopefully move away from here and start a life afresh. I am tired that so many people defend the OC's position when she is being well taken care of by high CS payments and a loving mother.<BR>Further, the OC I think would be better served by having a truly involved father in her life-not what little my H could offer.He and OW never talked of what that would be like, how he could be involved when he could have no contact with OW when he sees the child. How does the child feel when he does not come to events because her mother is there? What would that feel for the child? Anyway, I think and pray daily the OW moves on , moves away and builds a life for her child and her that does not involve us but is still good. I think if I were in her shoes, I would be working to find a truly loving partner and father for child, not necessarily the sperm donor that was my H. I do not apologize for my views, I am protecting my loved ones and always will.

I think we are getting things confused. I respect everyones views and how the choose to deal with there lives, but I was trying to point out why you might be getting a lot of posts about hating OC. <P>Question I wanted to ask. The ladies that refuse contact, do you think that it will be easier later when the OC comes walking back in you life to explain to your children or right now? Let me know I would be very interested to know. I wish we could get some people who have gone through this years ago and had OC walk into there lives later, tell us about it! <P>Love and Peace to all the people suffering.

"I came here with a different view and was accused of not being "real" this is a very sad."<P>MC, I'm sorry that you feel mistreated. It is easy for us to be suspicious of new people when we have been so visciously attacked on this board this year by at least one person whose intentions were so deceitful and hurtful their posts had to be "locked". Since we are ALL already people who have experienced hurt and deceit from those we love most... Can you imagine that we are protecting ourselves from more pain?<P>The regulars on this board are not hateful people, myself included. Some of us do hate the XOP who literally tried to (in some cases STILL TRYING TO!) destroy our marriage/family knowing full well of the spouse's existance. Some of these XOW use the OC as a pawn, hurt our children of the marriage, and cannot be reasoned with. There is at least one case on this board where the story is happier, where the XOW and wife have reportedly been very agreeable with one another, but it is rare (and in that case the XOW did NOT know the man was married at the time of the affair).<P>Regarding the Bible, I agree that Sarah told Abram to have a child with Hagar, and that Sarah mistreated Hagar. It was not until Ishmael mocked Sarah's son Isaac that Sarah told Abraham to "cast out" Hagar and Ishmael, and in Genesis Chapter 21 verse 12 God tells Abraham to do as Sarah says, that He will make a nation of both Ishmael and Isaac "because he is thy seed". One interpretation of this is that God does value the "OC"(Ishmael), but neither does He expect Sarah to continue having Hagar and Ishmael in (or near) her home! If I and others find comfort in that, so be it!! You do not have to agree with my interpretation and I will never attack you for wanting visitation with the OC!<P>While I think children born of these circumstances are best given up for adoption, the mother rarely does, and if you can maintain a civil relationship with the XOW that allows you and your H to have "normal" visitation like a "normal" step-child, more power to you!!! I wish you all the best!! I found lots of information at Marriagebuilders to be very helpful for rebuilding mine, and I hope you do too. I especially recommend the "Emotional Needs Questionairre" and "Love Busters" quiz.

<BR>momhurting,<BR>I never refused contact my h never wanted a child with this ow he made a stupid mistake by having sex with a warped person. He made it clear right from when she told him she was pregnate (and guess what she knew she was preg right away like 2 weeks after they had sex)to either get a abortion (he gave her the money she refused) he then told her to find someone else to play daddy he wanted no part of it. I at first was thinking about trying to get custudy of this child but when reality sank in we realized then our little girl would have to know and everyone else. Then we would have ow in our lives even more EEEhhhhhh gads we said what are we thinking. I dont know when we will tell our little girl about the oc. It will be when she is grown up. Me and my h both look at oc as her child not his. I know one day we will have a very angery young man at our doorstep. I try not to think about it for it makes me sick. I also want her as far out of my life as possible to leave us alone, she gets her weekly paycheck thats all she will ever get from us. with love flowerseed <p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited May 01, 2001).]

momhurting,<P>To answer your question....I do worry about the day that oc comes knocking at my door, but I know in my heart I did the right thing. See, I nor H refused contact. She (ow) couldnt stand the thought of me being in oc's life. One of her friend's referred to me as oc's step-mother and ow flipped out. This is a story ow told directly to me. She cared not how many ways she hurt me. It actually hurt my feelings that anyone, even ow, would feel that I would bring any harm to anyone's child...even a child that is a result of my H's affair. Anyway, when she realized we were serious about visitation she dropped her own cs case and shagged.<P>Now when oc comes knowcking at our door, I pray ow has told her the truth of things, but I have a feeling ow will say that oc had no daddy bc his selfish wife wouldnt allow it. I dont even think she will put much blame on H...just me. She hated me with a passion...she never even met me, but couldnt stand the fact that H thought I was an angel. And when I proved it with my attitude towards oc she hated me more. I hope and pray she grows up. As far as how I will handle it...Ill jsut have to take it when it comes. Oc will be welcomed in with open arms. I just hope she knows the truth. I will never say anything to oc negitively about ow...so it may be hard to tell the truth to her. Pray for that day momhurting...<P>Love<P>bw

Dear momhurting,<P>Will it be easier if the OC appears in our life when she is grown? I believe it will be.<P>When she was born, my marriage was on very shaky ground, like most of us. My H wanted visitation and I allowed it in the beginning. OW turned quite vicious, like flowerseed's story. She did not want the child to fit into my family, she really wanted my H to leave.<P>I brought the child into my home, bought her gifts, held her in my arms, until she was a year old. And though I treated her with the same love and respect that I would treat any child, every single time, a piece of my heart got ripped away. Even without saying it, my H could see it. He watched until he couldn't stand it anymore, then he told me that he would not have contact with the child.<P>It turned out that he did have limited contact and did not tell me. But looking back I believe that our marriage only survived because of my lack of knowledge. I needed time ... we both needed time ... to strengthen our marriage, to decide what we are aiming for, to find each other again. <P>So, if the OC comes walking into our lives, it will be stressful and it will be pressure but on a loving marriage where the partners are working as a team, not on an already broken marriage that is hanging by a thread. If the OC had continued to be intruded into the latter situation, the thread would have broken for sure - and there would have been two broken homes instead of just the OW's. <P>I am sad for the OC. She may come back as a very bitter young woman. She may be angry with me. And like others said, who knows what lies she is being told all these years. But, it is a chance I had to take if I was going to save my marriage. <P>love,<BR>heavenly

My Cross, I admire your stand about OC's. There's very few women in this board who feels the same. In fact, you're right about the "hate" that this group of women mostly feels towards OC's and OW's. There's someone on this board who is so full of it, LSB. If you read her postings , she's just full of it. what she doesnt know, it reflects too much to her personality. What a shame though, she claims to be a active Christian but thinks, her OW shld have aborted.<P>To me, its a shame to Christianity.<P>I support you MyCross for your pain. I know things will get better for you as long you have faith in God. <P>You are in my prayers.<P>LW

lesw, I am tired of your direct attacks on me. I am angry at the situation given to me. Yes, and I hate it. I owe no apologies to it. I do not hate the OC, but I do hate the OW. I believe Christians also have hated in their past, people who deliberately hurt others with no regard of what their actions will do to the truly innocents. I am one of the truly innocents, my children are definately one of the truly innocents, and by the way, the OW had no regard for me or my kids when she made decisions about her child. I likewise make decisions for my life based on what I need, not what she needs. YOu take some umbrage at what I post- I am truly hurting, pained, saddened by all that has happened to me and my life in last few months. YOu are totally insensitive to my pain and the pain of others on this site. The hate you see is part of the pain of the lousy infidelity my H and OW perpetrated against me and my family. Right now that is what I feel. I hope it gets better, but it will take lots of time and lots of work on my H's part to heal the damage he and OW have wrought. As I recall, you are or were an OW-perhaps the thought someone could hate you for your actions is much too much for you, but at some point you need to take responsibility and own up to your part of the hurt you probably caused to your betrayed spouse. No matter what state my marriage was in-and by the way, it was a good marriage, not awful or lousy, etc--my H and OW had no right to do what they did.Even my H admits I did not deserve this, he did wrong, he wishes he could turn back the clock and stop all he did. Unfortunately, some OW do not seem to feel the same responsiblity of accepting blame. I hope the OW goes on and has a good life with OC-but not with me or my family in it.<BR>By the way, I think if I have to tell my children of this sordid mess in future, it will be better when they are adults. OUr own therapist recommends waiting till then, says they can understand how their father made a mistake and will have more time under their belt within our family to accept father's mistake. I hope with years of love by father they will then be able to forgive him, and also,I think it is important for children not to be told about A/OC until wife/BS is able to truly state they have forgiven mistake as well. I am not there yet-remember, Affairs without a child involved can take 2-3 years to heal, with the child involved it is doubly hard,and I think it can take longer. So now I work on repairing my marriage, not on including OC in our life. It is much too much to contemplate, to do when I have so much else to manage.

Mycross,<P>I do understand why you are horrified at the thought of aborting the oc. I, too, am pro-life. However, when people are in great pain and fear, they will often react in ways that are inconsistant with their beliefs and morals. That doesnt make them bad people, it makes them human. Having been in this situation for over four years, I have had so many ups and downs that I could never judge anybody else for their reactions to what is probably the most devestating event in their lives.<P>I look at it like this: For a while I was an EMT. Among other things, I know CPR very well. But if one of my children was seriously injured to the point of needing it, I am so afraid that I panic and forget how to do it properly. In moments of sheer terror, we are likely to forget our "training". Do you see where I'm getting at?<P>When I found out that ow was pregnant, in that brief moment of horrifying devestation, I offered to pay for her to get an abortion. That was inconsistant with everything I had ever said or believed. But do you think God holds it against me for "slipping" during that one awful moment? Of course not. Even Job cursed his misfortune - he never stopped praising God, but he did curse his misfortune. That, in essance is what I was doing, what we all are doing.<BR>It is a primal reaction to suffering.<P>Not one of these women want the oc to die, or even to be hurt in any way. We all just wish desperately that the oc hadn't been conceived to begin with. In expressing that desperate, hopeless wish, we sometimes sound cruel and vindictive. What you hear, however, is not cruelty. It is simply deep, searing pain. Please try to take everything in that context.<P>cd

Lsb,<P>I'm not attacking you personally. I know you are in pain and like i said repeatedly, I feel for your pain. I just used you as a good example of one the women who's full of hate in this board. And its pretty obvious you are. Just re-read your postings and you will notice it. <P>What you women dont know or not very sure of, the OW's can be victims too. That the MM who entered in their lives could have deceived them too in other ways. And those OW's who chose not to abort should not be condemned . And you guys are so judgemental in that aspect. Maybe the reason why your OW didnt abort because of her belief in God and not because of her wanting to have a child. and you keep insisting that in your story. That's very unfair. That's why you women shld not only listen to just one side of the story, and not being one track minded, make sure you get the other side of it and maybe, you will learn more and you'll have the ability to understand more of why things happened the way it happened. If you will not open your mind or belief to anything, then i'd say, you will always live in a limbo. Remember, I keep saying this, most of H's are good players. They are malipulative people, they can do it in a saintly way that you wont even notice it. You think your H is a saint (maybe he's a good person), but you never know........they could be very deceiving.....they could be very solicitous..but you never know....<BR>

My Cross,<BR>This is why you see the hate you have seen here you just got a perfect example from miss full of it that is so full of it that she cant get a life and leave lsb alone. This is the kind of ow that breed hate and make us feel the way we do. Everytime she gets going it makes me that much more aware of why the oc will not be involved in this family and its because with the oc comes fruit fly mother. with love flowerseed

ISB<P>I am sorry for your situation...I know the range of emotions you are feeling...Hate is a horrible emotion...it is a destructive and makes the person feeling it...ill..mentally and physically...I know I have had brief feelings of hate for my H and OW...but I pitty her even more...she will NEVER have what I have...her child will NEVER have what my children have...For this I feel she will eventually hate me...but that is her problem...I pretty much feel nothing for her...with the bouts of pitty and anger...the situation is not a good one...and we now are in a place were we have nothing to do except except the situation and work with our H or hate it fight it and create new problems in our marriage...if saving your marriage is truly what you want....are these "feelings of HATE" helping you do that???...the emotion of HATE is one that takes the most out of us...do you really have enough left for the rest such as anger , love, happiness???...I am not judging you please dont think I am....this was something my father taught me...years ago...he was so right...HATE CAN EAT YOU UP...it can take over and run your life...if you allow that OW will win...My H would be gone if I spewed such hate ( I know you said for OW not OC)...everyone deals with things differently...and if is hate you need to hold onto...to survive do it...make sure you dont teach your children to...as you know it can distroy...and take over like a disease(like OW)....I pray that you can be touched with Love and understanding...I will pray that the Hate in you life softens(you can dislike...or not deal with..pitty etc...)hate is just the devil...I used this term in my orginal post...I have been ask why I felt this...I guess it has been "THE OVER TONE" of the posts...I can understand anger and dislike for OW...heck MY H OW is not on my good list either...but it was how the tones went on with regards to OC...the venom just poured into the post patterns....I can see alot of you really dont hate the OC..(the situstion yes) the child NO...But if you all read back a few pages you can see how I came to that conclusion...I used the refernce to "club"...I did so because when I person disagreed (like me) they were chastised...and heck I was made out to be a phoney...ask your moderator...this is my only times to this site they have ISP numbers...they can trace that stuff...I have not been here before...BUT I was judged and tossed like yesterdays trash...I am trying to get through this the best I can...I have now insisted on a blood test..one was never done...the girl does look like my oldest...but babies can do that...I think my H was a big chicken to "know the truth"...so one will be done asap...anyway...I wish you all the best..I dont want to pit one person against the other here....that was something I was also accused of...I just cant imagine any father NOT wanting to see or know their child...if my H took that approach...he would not have been the man I married...and if he could do that to OC....he could do it to our children...so it os just my ignorance and being new at this...maybe my tone will be different...I pray not...but betrayal does quite a number on us...and we can become species we never knew were there...God Bless you Isb..and everyone...<BR>MyCross

MyCross,<P>Very well said.<P>QUOTE:<P>(...I just cant imagine any father NOT wanting to see or know their child...if my H took that approach...he would not have been the man I married...and if he could do that to OC....he could do it to our children.. )<P><BR>I really admire you for having this kind of belief and If I were in your shoes, I may very well have the same stand on this issue. <P>There are BW’s on this board who claims their H’s are great Dads but they insist on the NO CONTACT issues for their own selfish desires – healing! To me, this is contradictory to what they claim to be of their husbands esp. if husbands wants to have contact with Oc’s. How can a wife claim that her husband is a great father if she wont even give him his desire to father OC as well? I know, there are husbands who wants NO CONTACT but there are husbands who wants contact but spouses restricts them from doing it. Isnt that selfish of these wives to insist on these kind of issues, esp. if they claim their h’s are GREAT DADDY’S?<P>So what happens, husbands lies to BW’s and continue contact to OC even if they told BW’s they have given up contact. and these BW’s believes in their deepest soul their husbands are telling them the truth… GO FIGURE!!!! <P>MyCross,with your support to OC’s issues, it shows that your love is so unselfish and unconditional . You should be admired and acknowledged for that, esp. by your husband. I wish you well and will be praying for your quick healing.<BR>

LesW,<P>Do you have any thoughts of your own, or are you capable solely of congratulating other people on theirs?<P>My advice for you: Don't give up your spot on the cheerleading squad in order to join the debate team.<BR>

my cross and lesw, My H is a wonderful father to our kids.That has been true the entire time of the affair, but I do not believe he would be the same kind of father to OC given our circumstances. He would not be there to hold her at night, make her breakfast, go to her school events, sit in on parent'teacher conferences, etc.-you all get the idea-because unlike a divorce, he could not be at events her mother would be at in order to end the infidelity and relationshp between the OW and my H> Hartleys' recommend total separation from the lover, and I believe that means forever. That means one cannot be in the same place as the other. I care about the OC, but do not believe the OC is better served to have sperm donor father in her life, but rather would be better to have a full time father. The OW was grateful for 1-2 hours a week with my H-yes, I believe his time frame because I know his life--but a child does not benefit from 1-2 hours a week. HOw will child feel if she can't come to daddys'; home, meets him only at a restaurant, goes to a park,e tc. I think that is odd and unfufilling to the child. LesW, you think it is wrong of me to ask H to not have contact, but I did not make him do it. I actually understood his concern for OC, but he also was concerned for our kids and his life with us. He was facing losing all he had known too, and he made the choice to stay with us and be a parent in total body/spirit to our kids. He did not have to stay and do this, no one is making him. I know he will not be less of a father to our two children, I see evidence of that daily. OUr children were conceived in a very planned, deliberate, long sought out and hard fought way. He has always been there for them, and abandoning them is not in his nature. If it seems as if he is abandoning OC, so be it-but I see it as him given child up for adoption to the mother to give it a decent, fair, life, possibly without ugliness in its life due to the circumstances of its conception-=not planned, conceived of ill conceived affair, etc. Also, I think this is no different than when a mother, or couple, decide to give child up for adoption-would you criticize those who choose to give up child in this case? No, I think you ask too much of others. I am working on my hate, it can eat you alive, but as Jenny said recently, getting through the hate and ugliness must happen before you get to the other side. I pray daily to heal, for all of us, but I also know denying the negative feelings only stuffs the feelings and turns up later more ugly than ever. I will get through this, the hate will get less, but not be espousing Christian values and professing what God would do.God knows when one is hurt by another one needs time to heal and live through it. I trust he understands my hate and will help me with it. I also do not think he expects me to automatically accept OC into my life. That is how I feel.

LSB,<P>You put it very well...thank you for explaining it to me in such a manner...I wish you nothing but peace..<BR>MyCross

Part of one of the negative things that we all have to deal with is the emotion of hate. The problem is finding a safe, nondestructive way to deal with that negative emotion.<BR>We are all only human and unfortuantely do not feel feelings of love all the time.<BR>This forum is a place to come to rid ourselves of some of those negative feelings simply because the people here have felt those feelings and understand that some times, under certain conditions hatred is normal and expected. As well as anger, mistrust and a variety of other little demons.<BR>Is it better to have a place to vent those negative things and release that from our souls or to leave it buried inside where it will sooner or later destroy us.<BR>I am new here.<BR>Yes, I have read, felt the hatred, but I have also seen a whole lot of love, forgiveness, hope ect. <BR>I believe that if I have a safe place to let go of the hatred and anger and pain that are in my heart then I make more room for love. That is one of the benefits of this forum. <BR>I don't think that there is anyone here that will judge anyone else for negative feelings. THAT IS GOOD BECAUSE THOSE NEGATIVE FEELINS HAVE TO GO SOMEWHERE...BETTER HERE THAN DIRECTED AT THE PERSON THAT WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE THINGS WORK WITH.

<B>LesW</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LesW:<BR><B>Lsb,<P>I'm not attacking you personally. I know you are in pain and like i said repeatedly, I feel for your pain. I just used you as a good example of one the women who's full of hate in this board. And its pretty obvious you are. Just re-read your postings and you will notice it. <P>What you women dont know or not very sure of, the OW's can be victims too. That the MM who entered in their lives could have deceived them too in other ways. And those OW's who chose not to abort should not be condemned . And you guys are so judgemental in that aspect. Maybe the reason why your OW didnt abort because of her belief in God and not because of her wanting to have a child. and you keep insisting that in your story. That's very unfair. That's why you women shld not only listen to just one side of the story, and not being one track minded, make sure you get the other side of it and maybe, you will learn more and you'll have the ability to understand more of why things happened the way it happened. If you will not open your mind or belief to anything, then i'd say, you will always live in a limbo. Remember, I keep saying this, most of H's are good players. They are malipulative people, they can do it in a saintly way that you wont even notice it. You think your H is a saint (maybe he's a good person), but you never know........they could be very deceiving.....they could be very solicitous..but you never know....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have attacked <B>Isb</B> on several occasions. I don't quite understand why you are always singling her out?<P>You want to know about hate? Let me tell you that I hate the OW and your posts do nothing to help me not feel that way. I struggle with hate and forgiveness just like everyone else on this board. Not just this particular forum. You have an agenda here, yet you won't honestly say that is what you are doing. <P>This site is about giving people ways to heal their marriages and the women of this forum do have it doubly hard. I am only praising the Lord that I am not dealing with this situation. I admire these women greatly on this forum.<P>You say how can someone <B><I>claim</I></B> to be a Christian and hate? The reason they can is they are human and have their own journeys and lessons to learn. How can a woman be a Christian and not want their husbands to have contact with OW & OC? You can't possibly really believe you have no idea as to why not? If you'd bother to read the principles of this site then you might have a clue. This is about healing marriages! Plain and simple! If a BS can't handle a WS being in contact with the OW & OC or even just the OC then how on earth are they going to heal?<P>You say <B><I>most</I></B> husbands are players. I beg to differ with you. The ones you are talking about are "Cake Men", not the majority. The majority of the WS's that are involved in the stories on this board are not "Cake Men" but men whom for one reason or another made a bad choice. My husband lied to me plenty, but he never ever lied to the OW. Her eyes were wide open.<P>I think before you go sharing your pearls of wisdom with everyone maybe you should first tell us really what your agenda is here? I am sure you are going to tell me it is to help. You'll pardon me if I don't believe you for right now won't you? <P>Secondly, if you are going to continue to post, read this entire site and be sure this is really the site you belong on.<P>I have spent the last couple of weeks not addressing you or your other friends who seemed to get pleasure from trying to hurt people here on this site. This site is my family and when you continually try to hurt or pick on my family I get angry. <P><B>LesW</B> I don't believe I have ever posted an angry or mean word to anyone on this site, but you have pushed my patience about as far as anyone has ever has. Please go away if you can't be nice.<P><B>Isb</B><P>I didn't post this because I felt that you could not take care of yourself. You have done a great job of that. I am just angry and feel that everyone here on this site has been through enough without someone making attempts at specifically hurting others.<P><B>To all</B> Naturally this is just my opinion. Forgive me for loosing my cool.<P>Prayers and hugs to all,<P><BR>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited May 01, 2001).]

samantha, I feel your support and thank you.I have no idea why I am singled out-perhaps the freshness of my rage and anger which seems to bother Lesw in particular. But I am strong, intend to still come her for support and venting rights. I deserve it!