H came home today to talk. . Can't believe this. I actually called a divorce attorney but just got the message machine. I am devastated.. HOw can this be fair to us? I am totally lost, can't work, want to hide in a corner but have to go get my kids from school. I do not know what to do.ay here waiting till he brings this up and then end marriage? I don't want to wait for this-wait till marriage starts to heal and then we end it. I am devastated. I urge him to go to individual therapy, I feel we shouldn't even go to couples, what is the point? He isn't putting my needs first, I can't stand this.Gotta go, I am really hurting.<p>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 19, 2001).]

lsb,<P>It's my opinion at this point that you're overreacting. If your marriage means so little to you---the file for the divorce.<P>Your husband said that he wants the option to bring up contact with her in months or years. OK---use the POJA to negotiate a "win-win" here. He's only asking to "bring the issue up". I'd suggest that you make this a platform for returning to couple's therapy---perhaps using the MB counseling center instead of your previous situation.<P>You make the statement concerning your kids feelings. Although I sympathize on your wanting to protect them---they may find out anyway. I really believe that it'll be in your best interest to bring this up with them together, when they're old enough. You're certainly not protecting your children by calling a divorce lawyer.<P>I also don't think his compromise of "hanging out in the marriage for a few years" until you either cave in with his demands to see the OC or he splits is very realistic either (in POJA terms, that's a brainstorming session's "lemon").<P>Bottom line---the two of you need to stick together, and you both need to be in counseling. Do it---and get there. If you antagonize the situation by throwing around demands yourself, or calling divorce lawyers---you'll make a bad situation much worse. And you may back yourself in a corner that you didn't really want to be in.<P>

Isb,<BR>I am new here, but it amazes me how much people's lives can change daily. It scares the h** out of me that my H can agree to something now (like no OC contact) and then change his mind later, when he has me back under his control.<P>That's so very sad what has happened to you, trust has fallen apart again. It make me have a dismal outlook for my future.<P>Thoughts are with you.....

I can't handle this back and forth stuff. I was starting to believe I could get over betrayal, distrust, My h's decision to involve our kids in affair a few times by introducing them to OW and OC. I thought I could get over it. Now I am thinking of suicide at times. I feel desperate, unloved, not cared about. I don't really care what he decides, he has made too many decisions for his needs, now I see that will not change. I want to work with him on this, he just wants to wait till I change my mind. I don't get it, but it makes me realize how little I really matter to him, how little the life we made for our kids matters, how little his concern for them is. If we divorce, his entire life will change as well. If we divorce, neither one of us can stay where we are due to cost of living issues. My children will probably have to move out of state, lose their friends, only home they know, school, life. So will I and husband. That is the price we all will pay, besides the obvious emotional ones. I guess that doesn't matter to him either. I am miserable.Gotta go.<p>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 22, 2001).]

K how are you?<BR>Have you read about my life recently?<P>I was like ISB EXACTLY.<P>I finally understood his need to see C but he wasn't completely honest w/me.<P>He actually wanted much more and just dumped it all when the baby came.<P>He wants me to understand him. I wanted him to understand me. H continued communication throughout ow pregnancy. If it weren't for a message I heard on his answer machine I would still be "in the dark".<P>Now I realize why ow didn't try to hide. She was laughing at me all over again knowing she talked to H.<P>H saw C at hospital day after. No dna done nothing we had agreed to. <P>What do you think in my case? H doesn't want marriage to end but hasn't been honest since d-day. What do you think about that?<P>I'm seeing a woman attorney Fri at 10. I'm scared but not as scared as finding out more lies.<P>I do not blame ISB for her feelings but I caution you ISB...if it really doesn't feel right...just like affair time...believe your intuition. <P>I agree w/K that kids will find out sooner or later...especially since it sounds like he'll never give up on C.<P>If you don't accept it sooner or later it will come back to haunt you.<P>I feel the same as you in the fact H chose C over me and my feelings at this time and our marriage. I don't think I can forgive him again.<P>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Isb, <P> Ihope you don't take this the wrong way, but here goes. I truly believe that if your H wants to be involved with the oc, he will. Behind your back or not, you won't be able to prevent this. He is giving you signals now to test the waters, how and if you can live with this is up to you.Maybe he told you he didn't want to see oc to prevent further hurt and worry for you or maybe he thought he could live without oc at the time, but he has changed his mind. Now, you have to decide if you can go along with this. You shouldn;t make this a contest between you and the oc. This will only cause resentment and tension.There are many ways that he could arrange to see oc without involving ow or your children.It can be done. Can you deal with this? There are times that I wished my husband would write off oc, but deep down I know his inability to do this also makes him better as a father. Could you not see one of your children simply because there were conceived with another man? I know I couldn't and that allows me compassion for my h's situation even though I have been hurt. Don't try to make him choose if you want this marriage to work. The time and energy you spend worrying about his feelings for oc could be channeled towards your relationship with him. Stop struggling with this. His desire to see the oc is not an assault on you and your children. This can be done.<P> Best to you,God bless

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blue00:<BR>[B]Isb, <BR> I am so sorry you are in so much pain. I am one of the BS who truely believe if you give the BH an ultimatum, either me or no contact with the OC someday doen the road you will lose. This does not apply to the fathers who don't want any contact with the Oc only to the fathers who were forced to choice betewwenwife and OC. I think the hubby will either start sneaking visiation or will eventually come to resent the person who mage him agree to no contact. I think i will come to love the OC and it will be to damn bad for the Ow who i know does not want me involved.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>lsb,<P>It's my opinion at this point that you're overreacting. If your marriage means so little to you---the file for the divorce.<P>K K K K K K! As the MB Guru on high and the voice of reason in a sea of estrogen, I am shocked by this response. This is a disrespectful judgment, IMO. lsb is battling despair and disappointment that her husband has violated their POJA and has once again changed horses in the middle of the road. Her D-day wasn't long ago and she is still raw and in a great deal of emotional turmoil. If anyone is displaying that the "marriage means so little" to them, it isn't lsb...it is her husband, IMO. <P>You're certainly not protecting your children by calling a divorce lawyer.<P>Correct. However, for their children to see their mother upset and grief-stricken because more surprises have surfaced causing her to become more distraught and upset, then this is not protecting the children either. It is up to the husband to focus on her, their marriage and their children and put the OC on the back burner until they have had sufficient time to heal and reach compromises. When one spouse runs roughshod over the other, nothing but resentment will come of it. Who really is making the demands here?<P>Bottom line---the two of you need to stick together, and you both need to be in counseling. Do it---and get there. If you antagonize the situation by throwing around demands yourself, or calling divorce lawyers---you'll make a bad situation much worse. And you may back yourself in a corner that you didn't really want to be in.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is true but lsb cannot do this alone. Her husband absolutely MUST incorporate Harley's principles into their lives and follow them religiously for the marriage to survive and flourish. He must honor the POJA, practice the Rules of Honesty and Protection and focus on her, the marriage and their children together.<P>K, you no longer have to battle your demons because the demon (OM) is out of the picture and you and your wife are able to raise your child without outside interference. This is not the case for women in this situation...the OW is always part of the scenario. Your W no longer deceives you or breaks the POJA or violates the Rules of Honesty and Protection. You have built a solid firm foundaiton and the two of you have attained what the rest of us aspire to. lsb and her husband MUST get counseling and adhere to the Harley Principles and Rules if they want their marraige and family to survive. <P>lsb, now is not the time to react and do something you may regret. You absolutely must get counseling and your husband must completely commit himself to getting help and to work on healing you and the marriage. You sound so desperate and disappointed right now and you talk of suicide. You need to remember that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem...things will get better, one way or the other. They always do. Do not give in...you have children to consider.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>

lsb,<P>I tend to agree with blue and whatif. I am not saying that it would be easy on you, but if it didn't involve contact with the OW could you tolerate it? I don't believe that we have a limit to the love we can feel. Parents can love more than one child (obviously because you and H have more than one and you both love each and everyone of your children). Children can love more than one parent or one set of parents. This is one thing that they tried to drum into our heads during adoption education--not to be threatened by feelings that our kids might have toward their birth parents. <P>I don't believe that we can protect kids from the difficult and painful facts of their lives. It is a painful and difficult fact that their father made a huge mistake in his life that led to this OC. I think that they would get over this. Children are much more resilient than we believe them to be. I know, I know. I don't have kids yet since our adoption fell through, so what do I know? However, I grew up a child of secrets (intersex condition <A HREF="http://www.medhelp.org/www/ais" TARGET=_blank>http://www.medhelp.org/www/ais</A> and false paternity) I believe that all children sense dark secrets in a family and that what doesn't get talked out gets acted out. You might want to read Bradshaw on the corrosive effects of family secrets. The mother of a child dying of cancer said something to the effect of "You can't protect your children from their pain, and you can't take it away or take it over for them. The only thing you can do is teach them how to handle their pain." I assume she meant emotional as well as physical. The truth is that this is only the first of hard lessons your children will have to learn in life. No sense launching them into the world with no skills in dealing with the major traumas that life can hand us. Think of all the important lessons you might be able to teach them through this horribly painful situation--forgiveness, love for innocents, resilency, that everyone makes mistakes--big ones and small ones, that no one is perfect--even Daddy and that living up to your obligations and making the best restitution that you can for your errors (sins?) is important. Maybe your husband can make this up to you and still do what he thinks is important by this child.<P>It may be that your husband loves this child already and is warning you that this is going to be an issue for him, or it may be just be that he is trying to complete what he perceives to be his obligation to this child. Either way, maybe it says good things about him and his ability to love innocent children. Try reframing this; books on cognitive therapy are plentiful in the stores and it is a form of therapy that I have really found to work for me. It isn't so much the awful events in our lives that make us miserable but it is the internal dialogue that we have about them. This is that whole idea behind "No one can make me feel anything that I don't choose to feel." Not easy, I know, but it is effective. <P>I think that *if* handled properly, and *if* OW behaves herself (as ours did not) that you might come to be able to tolerate this. Hey maybe someday you might get full revenge by being the cool "mom" in this kid's life. The one who has all the fun and doesn't have to make the rules. Wouldn't that really chap her hide? I even grew fond of my H's daughter in the 8 or 10 days I saw her. I regret losing contact with her, but not with losing contact with the OW.<P>The trick is to be ready when you disclose to your children (if you ever are). Please consider that if you and H divorce, your children are almost certainly going to be exposed to OC after a divorce *and* they won't have both of you at home with them to help them handle this. You are right in that if you aren't able to handle this, they will take their clues from you. That's why counseling is so important not just for your husband but to help you work through your issues.<P>K, that was an awful tough line you threw out at lsb: "If your marriage means so little to you--then file for the divorce." Not very kind, let alone empathetic or healing. Please don't diminish how hard this is for her. Her pain comes screaming through in her fear and her anger. People need a place to vent at a time like this and every bit of this that we absorb for her is some anger that she will not have to spill into her marriage. We are in some sense her counselors.<P>Mrs. Job

Well said Catnip.<P>Mrs. Job

LSB,<P>A couple of issues I'd like to address. Forgive me if this post is more straightforward and not gentle. I usually try to word things so that they are politically correct and careful not to step on anyone's toes. But I am soooo worried that you are going to make a decision you will definately regret.<P>Number one the POJA. My husband has initiated changes in our POJA twice. Both times I realized that the POJA that was initially agreed upon, he had entered into just to "protect" my feelings and it wasn't what he truely wanted. It took a while but I finally came to terms with the fact that I love my husband and I chose to stay. In making that choice I choose to support him in any decision he makes with regards to HIS child. If tomorrow he told me he wanted to sue for full custody I would support him regardless of the financial strain or the whole starting over with diapers senario that would accompany that decision. My husband has supported my career choices for so many years and I realize now that a spouses support is their way of showing love. I didn't know it before the affair and wasn't aknowledging his sacrafices. <P>Now that I support his decision regarding his child he has told me and freinds of ours that he has fallen in love with me all over again, because now I'm making the sacrafice. Our relationship is now truely give and take. Before it was all take on my part.<P>I really and truely believe that my husband's desire to be apart of this child's life shows what a wonderful man he is to embrace his offspring, regardless of how it got here and it's mother. My H despises the OW now, but he is a fabulous father by nature. <P>And I agree with those that say a part time dad isn't as good as a full time dad, but this is the hand we were dealt and we are going to make the best of it.<P>I also agree with the post about the sweetest revenge. I know that my OC will perfer to be here with us. I can't wait for the day that she calls me mom in front of OW, or runs home telling great stories about what I did for her. Our OW's biggest fear, she admits, is that she will loose her child to us. I pray for that day. I've said it before, she stole my husband for a short time, but I will steal her child forever.<P>LSB, you can't look at him choosing the OC over you. At this point he's being honest by giving you clues that he is not altogether comfortable about no contact. Like the other posters said, the desire may one day be overwhelming. I don't want to put my husband in the position to deceive me. By him knowing I support him he is comfortable telling me EVERYTHING. He knows that honesty is the best policy because we've created an enviornment for that. What environment are you creating?<P>Also, if you do get him to succesfully keep no contact you may be setting your marriage up for failure with resentment towards you. If contact is what's truely in his heart he will resent you in the future.<P>Truth is, you can't completely protect your marriage for failure. All you can do is work on creating an atmosphere for success. When you deny your husband his option of contact you are creating an atmosphere of potential lies and deceit. By opening yourself up to the posibility in the future you allow him to be honest about his feelings whatever they might be and when those feelings come up you tackle them as a couple and not as individuals. Don't you want him to be honest with you about his feelings as well as his actions? Then you have to make him feel safe in being honest.<P>I also feel strongly about the issue of children being resilient to emotional situations. Children who are sheltered and think that mom and dad are perfect and they have the perfect marriage are unequiped with the tools to understand conflict resolution, compromise, and the whole concept of making amends and the best out of a bad situation. What lesson would we be teaching our children if we were a proponents of abandoning our own children? If your 18 year old son were to get a girlfriend pregnant and the girl wanted to keep the baby would you be in favor of him not being there for your grandchild? It would break my heart if I knew my son could so easily cast aside a human that he created. And what lesson would we be teaching our children if we say that if you make a mistake all you have to do is ignore it and it'll go away?<P>The poster above is also right about your children finding out anyway if you two divorce. If their discovery is what you want to protect, divorce isn't going to do that. All it's going to do is show your children that true love is not unconditional. And think about if you divorce and your children grow to love their new sibling. How will they feel about you for rejecting their father because he loved someone they too love?<P>I guess the best thing that helped me come to my choices was finally realizing that my marriage is a completely separate issue from the OC. They have to be treated as such. For just a moment take the OC out of your head and think about your husband and your marriage. Do you love him? Does he love you? Do you want this marriage to work? If so, what are YOU willing to do to salvage it.<P>A preacher here in Atlanta was a guest on a radio talk show. He was addressing why couples argue and can't get along. He made an interesting point. Think about all the arguements you've ever had. What was the common thread? You were arguing because you wanted something and weren't getting it. How do you eliminate arguements? Stop worrying about what you are going to get and focus on what you want to give. If both parties do that, there'd be no room for arguement.<P>I know it's hard to not feel like you are giving in to his wishes by allowing contact. It's natural to feel like after doing this aweful thing to you that he should pay and conceed to your wishes. But you have to stop trying to punish him. <P>Someone once posted true forgiveness is when you finally don't feel the need to have the offender suffer for their misdeeds. I ask you LSB, have you truely forgiven your husband by this definition? If not maybe you need to examine how you can get to that point. Not how HE can get you there, but how YOU can get there for yourself and your marriage.<P>Your personal healing is going to come from inside. Not by what he chooses or doesn't choose. When you can feel deep down in your heart that no matter what happened in the past, it's just that... the past, you can start dealing with your future.<P>By having a place in his heart for his child does not mean that he doesn't have just as big or bigger place for you, his wife. Does he love your children more than he loves you? No, it's a different kind of love. Just like we have love for our parents, our siblings, our children. It's all different. He can love you and love this OC at the same time.<P>LSB, I'm sorry this was so long, but I hear the distress in your words and I know that your bitterness from the affair and OC is blocking what you really want to happen and that's mend your marriage. Please read and re-read what I have written and know that your H is in pain for what he's done, but he's also in pain about having to choose between you and his child. Love your husband, feel his pain, be his wife and embrace him and his choices.<P>And most of all, remember we are here for you,<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

lsb:<P>I know how hard the "back and forth" is to deal with. I didn't mean to come across harshly---but here are the issues you deal with.<P>1. Your husband still may be "attached" to the OC and perhaps the OW.<P>2. There was a reason for the affair---if it was because of a deteriorated marriage, you may need to address these issues immediately. Your balance in your husband's lovebank probably isn't very high---you need to increase HIS romantic love for you, in order for him to buy into the "save the marraige" program.<P>3. There is no doubt that lsb's husband could make things a lot easier by following an "X, Y, Z" prescription on behavior that we could all write for him. However, he's not here. Insisting on him doing stuff is ineffective at best, and could hurt lsb's effort in a worse-case scenario.<P>Catnip, I agree completely that the best thing for lsb to do is to get into counseling with her husband. But if he's not going to go, the second-best thing for her to do is to get into marriage counseling without him. And I'm not sure what skill-set her current counselor has (she didn't seem particularly "pro-marriage"). I'd recommend one of the Harley's for her (888-639-1639).<P>You're right that I no longer battle the OM demons. And my wife follows the rules. But she didn't when all this stuff started. It's my opinion that if lsb wants her marriage restored (and there's an excellent chance of that happening, IMO)---she needs to IMMEDIATELY get on the program. Plan A. Encouraging honesty. Using the POJA---even if her husband doesn't.<P>You all are absolutely right---there wasn't a lot of empathy there, and I shouldn't have thrown out that line. I do have empathy for lsb's situation---but the harsh reality is that if she continues down her current path of selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, and angry outbursts on her husband---she will end up divorced. And that won't heal her situation at all. Truly lsb---your marriage stands a good chance for rebuilding it to something magnificant. Please give the counseling a chance---and work hard to implement these skills in your marriage. I know that it's not fair that you have to do all this work now; but the rewards are very much worth the effort.<P>As another issue, would you be able to get your husband to post here? I'd certainly be happy to help him learn the skills that would make this transition time smoother. It'd be better if he got it straight from either Steve or Jenn Harley---but if he's unwilling to do counseling with them, I'd do my best to work with him on learning the marital skills he needs to rebuild YOUR lovebank (which is rapidly draining, I know...).<P>God bless.

lsb,<BR>I am feeling very sad for you, I know this is been horrible and you have been really internalizing alot of this.. I have not gotten to the sad phase ( and I am praying I dont) I am just hitting the anger phase. LSB the one think that I have gotten from in reading your posts, is that YOU LOVE YOUR H and YOU WANT YOUR MARRIAGE to survive. Nothing else should supersed that. I know he said NO CONTACT BUT he said that for you...not for him...I tried to put myself in my H's shoes...and asked myself which one of my children would I never want to ever have contact with again...That is why I take the stance I do..NO ONE will ever keep me from my children...your H though he wants to make you happy and he wants to keep his family in tact, at this point does not feel he can sacrifice a child...even though he does not love that childs mother...he can still love the child. FOR the sake of your family...OPEN your heart, I am not saying accept OW in your life H&** NO...but you will have to come to accept OC in your life (if you want to save you marriage<BR>without it making you nuts)...Maybe OC can be dropped off with a person you all know than you can pick OC up...and H can visit...for trust sakes maybe you are the one that sets this up with a mutual person. so H maintains the NO contact with OW..but he can fullfil what he feels is an obligation to his OC...I dont know the ans...this is just suggestions...I just know if you force it and his heart is not in it it will be the demise of your relationship..eventually....remember YOUR family first...it does not alway have to be black or white

I thank all for their posts. But I am not sure I can handle any of this. Yes, I want my marriage.But for me, what my H has done is very painful and shaming to me. I have not forgiven him for what he has done, I am not there yet, keep in mind it has only been 3 months. I am not convinced he has truly given up the OW, at least in his heart. I do not feel like giving to him when he still is connected on some level to OW. He didn;t leave OW totally of his own choice-he left because he knew affair couldn't continue when he told me of CS payments and disclosed it all. He wanted it to continue, but knew he couldn't keep it going with my knowledge. I do not think that means he is over her. I have been married for 25 years, and perhaps that makes it even more difficult. WE developed a life together that included exclusivity; our children came late in our life after years of me having some medical problems and infertility. I lost many children via miscarriages to get our two kids. I endured lots of pain with those losses. I worked hard for H and I to have the two kids we have.They are wonderful. . I do not trust his judgement on our kids at this point. I do worry how it will affect them, and yes I am only too painfully aware that since I feel so awful about what H has done, that will be communicated to children and they will take their cue from me. They will resent father and protect me. I do not really want that, but I fear that is what will happen,The fact is, there really is no good solution for this situation. MY H wants me to accept all this, and I guess I just can't .God help me, I dread the day I tell my kids we are through, but I see that is where we are headed. I do not see H is willing to do what I need to heal-the Harley's also recommend taking drastic steps to put distance from OW- I have suggested moving far away, H says no. I tell H I may not be able to stay in our home since he had OW in our home and bed-he talks of remodeling. HOw come I have to do all the accepting? How come I have to do all the conditions for us to stay together? yes, we have things in our marriage we need to work on. I am willing to do this. WE are in therapy working on this, but H is so uninterested in therapy he talks of stopping and doesn't see we are getting anything out of it. He doesn't want to look at his own feelings and motivations-just wants to see that I feel better and less depressed over this. I have asked him to see an individual therapist to work out all the things he doesn't want to discuss with me there. He takes the names,doesn't call, and I know does not really believe in the process of therapy. So I ask you--what is the point? ANd I also ask---why I feel the sense of betrayal, the damage he has done to me, our life,. our children. It feels like the maintenance of the life he created from me and our kids takes away from us. I am sorry,that is how it feels. How can that feeling be good for a marriage? How can I heal when he insists on withdrawing love units on a daily basis? OUr life is very tenuous with each other. I can't deal with yet another life in it. I am sorry, it may be the end of my marriage but it is killing me. My H knows he started this all--despite what I contributed to the problems in our marriage, I was not responsible for him taking route to infidelity and resulting child. I want no part of that life-it is that repulsive to me. It was wrong, will always be wrong in my eyes, I can't make it right in my eyes. <p>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 19, 2001).]

Isb,<BR> <BR> If you truly can;t accept this then, you had better make this painfully clear to your h. Tell him that it is not an option for you,But ,I am telling you, an ultimatum of this kind might be the end of your marriage.Which can you deal with more? If he isn't over the ow, that might send him right into her arms. Also ,something you can't control, but something to think about. I don't know many people ,who really want contact with their children , would be willing to give it up for their spouse. I wouldn't and my h knows this. <P> As far as being the one to make all of the compromises or most of them anyway, thatis what we agree to when we decide to stay in these marriages after d-day. We can never even the score. His saying that he won't have contact with oc will never make the past hurts go away. It will only create motr heartache.

lsb:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> How can I heal when he insists on withdrawing love units on a daily basis? Our life is very tenuous with each other.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You won't be able to heal if the two of you aren't dealing with this in a way that rebuilds love. If he's unwilling to do this, and YOU can't deal with being around him---then ask for a no contact separation (Plan B). Have one of the Harley's help you with this decision and it's execution.<P>And remember---affairs are almost always temporary events. You have 25 years together. If you can hang on for a while, it's very likely that you can recover from this.<P>{{{{{lsb}}}}}

You have gotten some excellent advice here from K and Blue especially. It is also blantly obvious to the observers that your marriage has a better chance then most to survive and grow but you have made up your mind that you won't let that happen. Your husband made a terrible mistake but I still admire him in many ways. Some men can walk away from the OC and never give them another thought and some men can not. Some men can walk away from their families, join the other woman and make a new family with her, dis-regarding his first family. Your husband feels obligated to you, your children and this OC. I don't think he feels ANY obligation to the other woman. Your husband feels love for this other child and the two that you have together. He can't turn that off. If you continue with the ultimatiums I really, really feel like you'll regret your decision. He loves you and I really feel that right now you have nothing to fear with this other woman. But, if you don't get help and your marriage doesn't get help I can see him ending up with her. Why? I think your husband would rather be with her and this OC then alone with no family. You'll divorce and take his two children where else would he go? How would you feel about your husband having visitation in a home he created with her with their child?? I'm not saying that would or could ever happen but you have to admit that it's possible if you insist on your way or no way. I feel for you and I feel for him. I honestly think he's hurting just as bad as you are. Instead of leaning on each other and getting through the hurt together your using it to destroy your marriage, your life and your CHILDREN's life. Your situation is one of the saddest I have ever seen. Maybe because your situation seems so fixable. I realize that my situation is NOTHING compared to yours but I do know what it's like to have your spouses children in your home knowing that their father once cared about their mother. I have step kids. Obviously my husband made them with another woman and I know she still has feelings for him. Would life be easier if he had no children? I imagine so. But they are there, they are his children and he loves them very, very much. I know that our marriage is very strong and his feelings are for his children only. Their mother does not come into the picture. I also realize that my situation is different because I went into my second marriage knowing about his children and you had no choice in what happened to you. What point I'm trying to make is that your husband can be around a woman he once cared about and never have those feelings for her again. I'm done babbling....I'm just sad because your husband started it, you both contributed to it and now your destroying it. Please, please listen to some of the people who have been where you are. Don't leave only one path that your marriage can follow or else. You worry about your children resenting your husband for his affair. I fear they'll resent you for blaming and hating so much that you can't get past it enough to make it work. I've seen what hate and misery does too people. Awful......

Bonnie sept, yes, my situation is very sad but not for the reasons you think. My H embarked on a path to have an affair innocently believing he would not hurt me or our kids.His exact words. The development of the OC obviously changed all this around and he has wounded me very badly. We may have had problems in our marriage, but his decision to take this path instead of discuss them with me, seek counseling, etc. was purely selfish and wrong and only added to our problems, not solved them.We were not miserable, unhappy, fighting, etc.We had a pretty happy life, or so I thought. Being stepparent to children of a former marriage cannot compare to being a wife of a husband who betrayed her and had a child out of wedlock during the marriage.There is no comparison. It is a life of pure hell for me realizing the lack of care my husband took for me and our family embarking on this path. Now he wants me to understand his emotional needs to see OC but truthfully he really has not processed what he has to offer OC given the situation. When I asked him if he would allow another man to parent child if OW married, and maybe adopt OC, he said he wouldn't. Now, isn't that better for the OC than his part time very intermittent status? Whose needs are we meeting here?I think his, which is how we started down this path to begin with.<BR>That my husband is choosing to throw away his self respect, integrity, committment to me for 25 years and a life with our kids he has had for nearly 9 years so easily really hurts me. I do not want to throw it away, but I can't handle it. Other women on this board feel as I do-and understand. Should I stay in the marriage waiting for H to decide my kids and me are not enough for him down the road? How do I rebuild trust with him when he first says one thing and then says another? How do I feel he really is putting our joint needs first to heal and be together if the OC is always center stage? Plus, as I said before, I am not convinced he is over OW-he really has not told me that, admits he cares for her. HOw is having OC in our life going to make me feel <BR>secure in his love for me at this juncture? When she is the emodiment of his love for her and their joint reckless disregard for me? I think we need time to heal from all this-I do not know if I will ever love husband as I once did, admire him as I once did, trust him as I once did, but I am prepared to try and make a new life with him if he focuses on us. I just am not sure he wants to just focus on us now -I tell him he needs to give me the 3 years he had the affair and work on just us and our life with kids and see where we re at that juncture. At this point, I am not sure he will give me that. I do not think that is asking more than he took away from us. We need that time to healj-I need that time to heal, and I pray he realizes that.

LSB,<P>I feel like some of the things people are telling you are going in one ear and out the other. <P>Honey, listen to the people on this forum. We've been there, we've felt everything you're feeling, we've experienced the good, bad and ugly that come from our situations. Please listen to us.<P>No one ever said in any of these posts that there is an easy solution. Everything suggested is hard work. Loving, forgiving, understanding, giving is all super human effort. But the investment will reap returns twofold. I promise.<P>Your husband is in a ton of pain right now. Why do you think he cares for the OW still. He was getting something out of the relationship with her. Perhaps she listened to him, perhaps she understood his pain, perhaps she was willing to do whatever it took to get and keep him. How can you "compete" if you won't listen, understand and do whatever it takes??<P>Let me repeat:<P>How can you "compete" if you won't listen, understand and do whatever it takes??<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We were not miserable, unhappy, fighting, etc.We had a pretty happy life, or so I thought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You have to realize that HE was missing something in his marriage. You may have thought you had a pretty happy life, but he was not. You have to get to the core of what made him unhappy.<P>Trust me... and the others. You have got to figure out what it was that she provided ... and give it to him. Once you accomplish that he will be yours 100%. You've got the advantage, you have his heart and have had it for 25 years.<P>Fight girl. Fight for what you want. Love that man and all his baggage. When you start changing you attitude towards him and yourself, he will follow your lead.<P>Stop asking yourself: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do not think that is asking more than he took away from us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> and start asking yourself what can I give.<P>You also said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>HOw come I have to do all the accepting? How come I have to do all the conditions for us to stay together? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You have to do the accepting right now only if you want to really and truely have your husband committed and honest to you. When you took your vows you said for better or worse. Now's your chance to show him what they really meant to you. Perhaps he will learn from your example. He will find a new respect for what marriage truely means. <P>My husband tells me often that he'd never ever cheat again, not only because I took him back, but because I now am finally giving him what he needed all along. I finally understand him. And what has he done to repay me. He loves me stronger than he ever did. And proves it everyday. He's re-earned my love, respect, passion, and comittement. And all this in five months. We were at a stand still until I came to the realization that I'd have to be the one to make the first move. Before my realization we would go round and round over this OC/OW issue. Now that I've accepted OC, we can truely focus on us. They are not our issue anymore. <P>Eliminate OC/OW as an issue in your marriage. You have the power to do that. If you make an ultimatum regarding them, they will remain your issue long after your divorced.... until you die. Don't die sad, live peaceful.<P>FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT.<P>Hear our pleas LSB, fight for what you want.<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Zebrababy, I am prepared and have taken responsibility for what I did not do in marriage to make my H happy. I have told him I want to hear all I did not provide, things I did not do to make him happy,etc. and work on those things with him. I take full responsibility for my part in the damage to our relationship. I know I have culpability.But I just , for now, can't accept contact with OC. I know that risks my marriage, I know it risks his love, but it is so painful and threatening to me and our life I cannot do it. Maybe later, maybe in a few years, maybe when I am less raw and emotionally overwraught. But right now just the thought of her ties me up in knots, stops me from eating, makes me a basket case. I do not think I am ready. In fact I know I am not ready. I think the POJA allows for both to be ready to decide major issues- and I am not ready for this one. I hear all what you have said, but I am not emotionally equipped to handle this one now. Sorry.