It is hard not to be posting but I really feel it is best for me and my H now. I posted once a week ago, thinking he would not read it, and found out he read my post.So I am careful what I say now. I wish I could post more . I miss the support. Had what may be our last couples counseling session for a while last week. I felt incredibly sad, distant from H, I then told him then we are looking at separation-causing me continued pain, destroying my love for him. Breaking us up. Therapist told him when he did say he would not have contact, I did seem less upset, capable of forgiving and moving on. Told me I had to do what I need to take care of self. And I realize that now-this whole issue is so damaging to me, that if H cannot do this for me, I have to care for self and my kids and get away from all this. the issue of mediation attorneys came up to discuss possible separation and doing what is best for our children. H and I were quiet, each in our own worlds. I have names of mediation attorneys I hope I do not have to use. I feel very sad, H is now thinking of what life would be like without me and our kids in his daily life. Maybe not even daily-if we separate, I will probably quit job, move out of state, get as far away as possible to start anew. H wouldn't see our kids much, and that really makes me sad for them. In meantime,our kids go on their lives as if we are our usual happy selves and I feel as if I am dying little by little every day. Daughter asks about what school she will be attending for middle school and high school, and I sit there feeling I am lying wondering how do I tell her Daddy and I love each other but we cannot be together and we have to destroy our family because of what daddy did? This is unbearable. I pray we heal, I pray we can come together, but it is not looking too easy. Keep me in your thoughts. I need your prayers, as does my H. And H if you are reading this, I really want to make things work for us. Please think of me and the kids-we need you, we want you, but we have to have all of you. Love, me<P>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 19, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 22, 2001).]

lsb:<P>I would suggest that if you're going to go to a separation, that you start out by not moving away. Have your husband get a new place. Set up a regular visitation schedule (perhaps once every other weekend, and one or two weeknights of "visiting" at your place while you go out). I'd enforce a NO CONTACT separation as far as he was concerned---try to discuss everything through a third party.<P>I simply don't see the logic in your husband's unwillingness to give up the OC (because he's a great "father"), but his willingness to give up your children. It doesn't make sense---and it seems as though we're missing a piece of the puzzle. With his current path, he'll (at best) be a half-assed father to the OC, and probably only a quarter-assed one for your kids. <P>Good luck. I'll keep you in my prayers.

ISB K has said a very important message to you. I hope you follow it.<P>I let my H read your post and told him I was where you are 5 months ago and how his lies to not have contact killed me.<BR>He promised it then took it away.<P>He agrees he was being an as*, only thinking of himself.<P>I fought and fought until I gave up and had him move out....for 6 weeks.<P>The day he called and said he was moving home and nothing was going to stop him scared me.<P>When he was here that day he said he'd do ANYTHING to keep our marriage. He finally changed. I FELT it. I really truly believed it this time.<P>I think your H needs to leave. Take some time to realize what is gone from his life.<P>It is very important to carry on with your life as "if" you don't need him. It will be very hard.<P>I honestly would never have taken H back if I didn't feel his sincerety....finally....and I felt it.<P>I think it could happen for you too.<P>Hey ISB.....guess what? Ow wrote ME a letter and said she's not taking dna! We know she's pissed H is home.<P>Also said she will be spending most of summer in Florida w/her soon to be x.(we think, she's not filed against him yet)and her FOUR kids. Said she'll move there to prevent H having anything to do w/baby. If he can't be a full time dad she doesn't want him near the child. HA! HA! HA!<P>Things may change and I'm ready for them...but this takes the cake.<P>A lot more has happened but I don't have the time to tell you.<P>Bottom line is.....we are together as a team. It must have scared ow to think of her baby being around me. Oh well.<P>I pray for the healing of your marriage ISB.<P>I pray for you every day.<P>I identify with you so much you'll never know.<P>I never would blame you for not wanting oc to invade you happy family. Never!<P>It's so stupid for H's to think they can have an A ask forgiveness and expect us to swallow the results without complaint!!!!!!<P>Don't you give up ISB!!!!<P>I'm here for ya sweetie and I think of you every single day.<P>Love,<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

thank you K and gem. Your thoughts and prayers mean the world to me. I care about you as well. Sounds as if your h really has seen what he will miss without you ,Gem. Good for him-pray my H sees the light. I need him as well-saying goodbye to him will feel like giving up my entire life, my hands, my arms, my soul. I will post when I can.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lsb:<BR><B>wondering how do I tell her Daddy and I love each other but we cannot be together and we have to destroy our family because of what daddy did? This is unbearable. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>lsb:<P>I am completely sickened by what is happenening to you. What on earth do these wayward spouses think they are doing trading their families in, taking time and attention from their children for an OC that should not ever have been born to them. He is actually sacrificing you and his children with you for a child that should have been given up for adoption. <P>Now, because of OW's actions and his actions and her decision to keep this child, your husband is actually turning his back on you and your chidlren together after all he has already done to you? He should see himself as having given up the child for adoption to the OW or think of himself as a sperm donor and forget about it and move on and heal your family.<P>The OC in my husband's case is surrounded by the OW and her family and friends. There are a lot of people loving it and caring for it. Someday the OW may marry and perhaps her new husband will become 'dad' to this child. Without my husband in the way, this child has an opportunity to have a Dad without the confusion of bio-dad lurking in the woodwork, giving little of himself. Because, he HAS a family already.<P>Did your husband every read Heavenly's thread about "what do the WS think they can contribute to OC?" Print it up and show it to him. <P>For one thing, if he wasn't so adamant and considered you more, perhaps you wouldn't be so rigid in your feelings. You must heal first and foremost before you can do any good in the marriage. Another thing is the Retrouvaille weekend experience where the marriage always, always, always comes first and there is absolutely no obligation to any OC, except financial, unless there is a Policy of Joint Agreement in place and the marriage has sufficiently healed.<P>Basically, anyone or anything that is a threat to the marriage is encouraged to be omitted from your life.<P>I know I am probably creating a lot of grumbling with my extremely protective stance of the marriage, but, the marriage is what is important, before anyone or anything else. It's the bedrock, the foundation the basis for the family to thrive.<P>The people here who are able to incorporate the OC into their lives probably have healed well enough to be able to do this. You are so very early in your very tenuous recovery and so soon after D-day with so many issues and problems facing you...I just cannot imagine any man sacrificing seeing his children of the marriage and loosing his wife because of an OC. Dies he think he is the big man taking on 'responsibility' for what he has done? What is this misguided sense of obligation he feels if he ends up looking the fool by not accepting repsonsibility for you and the kids? And trading one for several? It just doesn't make sense.<P>Don't get me wrong. I have empathy for these poor OC's but the sin belongs to the selfish OW's who keep the children knowing full well that the dad is occupied elsewhere and will not be available for the child. Shame on them. The only OW's I have any rewpect for whatsoever are the ones who have taken the repsonsibility onto themselves and have made a decision to make a new life with their child and their extended family for the OC and got the hell out of the way of the first family of many, many eyars who have established a life together.<P>Leave the OC to God's care and wisdom...leave her/him to heaven. This was OW's choice leaving you nothing to say about her decision. It should therefore be her obligation and back off from you and your spouse.<P>So there.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>Never apologize, never explain <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Leave the OC to God's care and wisdom...leave her/him to heaven. This was OW's choice leaving you nothing to say about her decision. It should therefore be her obligation and back off from you and your spouse.<P>So there.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>Never apologize, never explain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How 'bout Catnip? Is she great or what? See ISB....most women here feel as you do!<P>I will pray your H sees the light.<P>I know if I can't put up with C that H will back off.<P>I want him to have a chance though as I feel no threat from ow. <P>We'll see if she even lets him see baby..... <P><BR>As far as giving up your whole life if you say goodby....me too...it's how I felt.<P>Miserable with NO chioces to make on my own.<P>I felt as if I were fighting an unknown and my H abandoned me for C not yet here.<P>I couldn't get over that feeling. It was a true feeling however as he planned visits from the start. He lied in early counseling to have me back off subject.<P>I don't know ISB, I think getting him to move is the only chance you have now at letting him see the light.<P>When he does, you will know. Who else knows him so well? You will know and heal in a miraculous way. I feel I've now been blessed.<P>My H's remorse is so much more heartfelt and he thanks me every day. I thank him too. I know things will get better for you and your children. He will never choose the C over you guys. He will never be happy with that.<P>Prayers and love,<BR>Debi<P>

lsb,<BR> I will never understand what men like your h are thinking. He must not realize the shame that is sure to follow when this all comes out and people know that he choose a child born of lies and betrayal over you and his children. He cant possibly think his children will be proud of him or the ow child by him doing what he thinks is right. To throw away his marriage with you so he can involve himself in this childs life is just wrong. It just seems the right thing to do for all the children would be to stay out of this childs life so ow could find a father for her child that isnt married. That just my thoughts on this. I wish I could make it all better for you . Take care of yourself and do what you have to get yourself feeling good about your life again. Glad you popped in I worry about you. With love flowerseed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lsb:<BR>[BIsb I am sending prayers your way. i am one who honestly feels ultimatums will always destroy true love so i will not post a lot because I feel like right now you need validatiion and not an opposing opinion. i hope you find happiness once again.

LSB, I too am glad you popped in. I think about you often. I know you didn't want to receive posts from people who accept OC, but I want you to know that regardless of your position on OC, you have friends here from both sides of the issue.<P>I respect your feelings and decisions. I pray that you find peace in your situation very soon. No woman who goes through what we go through should have to deserves the curve ball that are thrown our way. I also pray that your husband and you come to some type of medium that appeases both your desires.<P>My thoughts are with you LSB.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

lsb,<BR>I am so sorry you are in this position. I will be praying for you.<P>Catnip is absolutely right. The marriage needs to come before anything else. I wish your h could see that.<P>You might be thinking that because I am one who is willing to incorporate oc into our lives that I do not understand where you are coming from. But believe me, I do. If my h had insisted on seeing oc at the risk of losing me and the children, I don't think we would be married today. And as perverse as it may sound, had he prioritized oc's needs over ours, I would have NEVER been willing to accept oc into our lives. The ONLY reason I am able to do so is because h has emphasized the MARRIAGE from the very beginning.<P>You should never let anyone, especially h, make you feel bad for your feelings regarding no contact with oc. I pray that your h wakes up and realizes what he is going to lose.<P>with love,<BR>cd

I really do not have any time, but i wanted to tell you I am praying for you and your family.<BR>Love<BR>bw

I need to write to you all today, whether or not H reads this. I am having a very difficult time the last few days. Feel like giving up. H admits he cannot imagine losing me and our family life; doesn't want a separation, wants to work on our marriage and put me and kids first.-having her was not right, on. I feel damaged by all this. H says has been unhappy with me for a while, but claims he still loves me. I do not believe him. I feel frightened to try and rebuild a life with him waiting for him to hurt me again I could forgive him about the affair,oddly enough although that too still really hurts, but the child is so obviously immoral to me that I cannot get past it. I try and tell him if we separate over this issue, he will not be a true father to anyone-and he still doesn't get it. Minimizes the effect on our kids if we separate and divorce.Fact is, if we separate, even locally here, he can barely afford an apartment here to bring kids to, pay the high CS we do,and pay me Cs and alimony and have any money left for other things.And still he sees he would do this. I do not get it. Claims he doesn't want to hurt me anymore, . WE talked a lot last night-he is upset I check his mail now, open things I am not sure about, I check his credit card statements, etc. I said, what do you expect? I never checked before and maybe I should have- I need to do this so I can learn to trust you again. He doesn't see he needs to do this for me so I can stop checking up. It upsets me-he thinks my continued depression about all this only 3 months after discovery is me "wallowing " in my pain and actually said what happened is not the worst thing to happen to people.Who is he kidding? I told him this is the worst-other than something happening to our kids. I feel so alone with all of this-even he offers little support. In the meantime, <BR>I feel stuck with all this-not sure marriage will survive, feel like I should talk to an attorney for my kids and my own protection,and then think how is talking to an attorney working toward healing with H? <BR>H is willing to seek individual counseling for self to process all this, but he is a very difficult candidate, doesn't like to introspect with a stranger, hears ony what he wants to hear from therapists, dismisses other things. I want him in counseling ,support him, just not sure what good it will do.<BR>I read how many of you have husbands who have bent over backwards to heal-moved ( husband says he can't), allowed phone calls to check up on them ( H says if I did that or followed him that would be the end), gave up contact ( H says for now he will but forever is unrealistic). It just doesn't seem my H wants to do what it takes to help me heal, trust him, and start to repair where we both went wrong. I envy you who have husbands who have done this . I am starting to think my H is so selfish with his own needs and desires that he may not be worth all this pain. I do not know. That my love for him is melting away. That it is being damaged daily. <BR>In the meantime, we had thought of going away for 3 days alone without kids to celebrate 25th anniversary next month. Now I do not know if we should do that.What if it is a bust? What are we truly celebrating? How do you celebrate a life together so damaged now?What do you all think? He is afraid I will be sad the whole time- I am afraid my thoughts of distrust with him, sadness, and anger will ruin the days alone. I am actually afraid to be with him alone , can you believe it? I do not know what to do. <BR>Help me, I am not sure where we are headed, what to do, what to say, how to move on. <P>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 19, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by lsb (edited June 22, 2001).]

lsb:<P>I'm going to try this one more time. Your husband says...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>H admits he cannot imagine losing me and our family life; doesn't want a separation, wants to work on our marriage and put me and kids first... H says has been unhappy with me for a while, but claims he still loves me... H is willing to seek [individual] counseling for self to process all this... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your best chance at success is to start the phone counseling with the Harley's. They will help the two of you navigate this horribly emotional time in a way that will start to rebuild your love. It's not easy---but I see no evidence that your counselor(s) is doing anything to help this situation. Please call 888-639-1639, and start NOW.<P>I also see plenty of disrespectful attitudes in your post, that will hinder your marriage and any future relationships. I don't say this to hurt you---but out of concern for your marriage and your family. I'd really suggest that you look inward, and start to work on these. You have said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Thinks the kids will eventually get over this knowledge, forgive him, because they know he loves them<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think he's right. You're being disrespectful by not acknowledging this possibility. I also think that your depression over this ought to be treated medically---if you're not on antidepressants now, you ought to be.<P>You have a lot of reason to be hurt. And it would be terrific if your husband came back to you 100%. But that scenario isn't usually the case. Your husband HAS come back to you---not in the way you want, but he's back. He needs a lot of work on his marital skills---no doubt about it. But if you want this marriage, you have a real, tangable opportunity to recover it. You're worried about a lot of things that might happen years from now (like your husband contacting the OC). Don't. Please focus on rebuilding the marriage. Strengthing your marital skills. Building love between you and your husband. Putting in place the Rules that will help to guarantee that nothing like this will ever happen again.<P>If you do that, all your other worries are going to go away. It'll take time, but the OC and everything else will become a non-issue. I know that you're frightened, and that you don't trust him---but it's probably the biggest thing you can do with your life. Making a successful marriage will benefit you, your husband, your children, and the people around you.<P>Please ask your husband to counsel with you---using the Harley's. If the two of you can agree to do the work, you will recover. I've never seen it fail for those couples who want to try.

Dear lsb,<P>I think about you all the time, although I have not been able to post much the last week or so. K has given you some excellent advice, I hope you will take it. While every one on this forum tries to give some insight into our own cases in the hope that it will help others - they are just guidelines. Every marriage is different and every person is different.<P>The fact that your H has not agreed to phone you constantly and pledge no contact with the OC, does not mean that he is not willing to do the work to rebuild your marriage. Your H has been fairer to you than mine was in the beginning. He told me that he was not going to have contact, and then did so anyway. It was far worse to go through discovery a second time and after so much of our marriage had been rebuilt on a lie.<P>Your H is at least being honest with you about what he feels he can also accept. I know that it hurts. And I know that you feel that since you are the cheated person, you deserve everything that you want to ask for. That is a phase that we all go through. But, let's face it, marriage is "give and take", it is sharing. For the long term, both of your desires will need to be met if your marriage will succeed.<P>I completely agree with K that you might consider anti-depressants at this time, only because your depression has been so deep and so long. There is no shame in depending on medicine to help you through. Maybe you should see your family doctor, explain your anxiety and get something to help soothe you.<P>The MarriageBuilders principles are wonderful and since you want to continue with counselling, Steve Harley would probably be a wonderful resource for you. But, the MarriageBuilders principles are not always easy. They take into account what both of you -- you and your H -- need to make yourselves happy. <P>One more thing, we all know how much you are hurt by the existence of the OC. Yes, it is immoral that a MM had a child with an OW. And I completely agree with you that it IS one of the worst things that can happen in a marriage. But, don't push the OC issue now. If your H is willing to let it go for a while, use that time to rebuild your marriage -- open communication with your H, re-establish trust. And, yes, I agree that you must emphasize to him that you also have short-term needs that must be met if you are to trust in him and your marriage again. <P>I hope that you will try some of these things, especially, to see a doctor to help you get in the right frame of mind. Don't stop coming to the forum, you need our support right now. <P>Maybe you should try a new user name? <P>Keep struggling, lsb, your H loves you and I believe you can work this out if you will meet him half way.<P>love,<BR>heavenly

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lsb:<BR>[B]I am very sorry that you are in pain. you and hubby need to get into counseling and maybe look into some medication. it really helped me. maybe I am overstepping my boundries but from what i have read your husband has given you the answers to the questions you ask, they just aren't the answers you want to hear. he has told you he loves you, he wants to stay with you and your children and he wants to work on the marriage but he is not willing to never have contact with the OC. It is his answer, now you have to ask yourself if you give your marriage time to heal can you eventually live with contact between hubby and OC. if yes than fight, fight , fight. if no then maybe it is time to make other plans. I know i thought of letting go but then I realized hubby would still be involved with Oc and so would our children but i would be the one out in the cold. I knew i could never force hubby to have no contact, not at least without him coming to resent and possibly hate me, so I worked on our marriage i still am and it is getting stronger and now all contact he and my kids have will be with my involvement also. All i could think about was if we divorced he would have seperate parties with OC and my kids and things like that and i said hell no let the OW be the one who is left out of everything. I am not saying the fathers should be involved but i know there is no stopping them if they want to. hope this made sense.

Dear ISB,<BR>I let my H read your post. I said you are where I was 4 months ago. He was where your H is now.<P>He cried! He said your H needs to know what he has to lose! Move him out. Go to plan B. It will not be easy, but you will gain some self respect.<P>I agree with K and Heavenly.....get on an antidepressant to help you deal with things!!!!!!<P>Prozac and God saved me from too much despair.<P>If K would have advised me that things may change in a few years I wouldn't have understood. They may, your H is with YOU...YOU ISB!!!! Give it your best honey.<P>To move him out and miss your 3 day anniversary would be nothing compared to a life forever without him.<P>When he gets out of the fog you will know and believe him again. I thought my H would never get there.....6 months later he realized how very important I was to him. He came home a new man.<P>I can check up on him w/o his anger now.<BR>I feel free to express myself w/o fear again.<BR>I feel so very connected again.<BR>We love each other like honeymooners.<P>As far as MY 25th....H spent it w/me but it was DURING A!!!!<P>I was devastated!!!! I received a 5 ct diamond bracelet that I still wear, I figure he must have still felt something for me to get it.<P>His remorse is now heartfelt.<P>I went through 6 of the hardest weeks of my life.<BR>I came out stronger!<BR>I was no longer scared to be alone.<BR>Strong family and friends helped me.<BR>I stayed as active as I could.<P>I even said I no longer wanted him when he came home. I really didn't think I did, but I do now. It's a healing miracle ISB.<P>Move him out to let him see what he'll be w/o.<P>Start to worry about you.<P>Take the meds. You'll feel better in a few weeks.<P>Love you ISB and pray for you .<BR>My H now asks about you too!<P>How's ISB today? he says. He'd never do that in the past.<P>Your H will change as soon as reality kicks in!!!<P>Love'<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Dear lsb,<BR>I have to tell you that I think you are looking at this backwards. I am NOT saying that you are wrong in your position of wanting no contact with oc. But you are not focusing on what is really important. I'm going to try to put it metaphorically for you to see if it might make sense that way (the english teacher in me is showing!) <P>Imagine your marriage is the roof of a house. Your family lives underneath it's sheltering beams. It is what protects you from the elements. This roof has served you well for many years, then suddenly your h took an axe and hacked a big gash into it that let the rain come pouring in. You can't understand why he did it, nor can he give you a reasonable explanation. You are wet and miserable and no longer trust the roof to keep you dry. So you decide that you and h will temporarily put a few patches over the gash. But now, in order to combat the elements, you are running around with pots and pans trying to catch the drips. And you are living in constant fear of what will happen if there is a thunderstorm. You keep saying, "What if it rains so hard that not only the patch is destroyed, but the entire roof falls apart?" And you put off making permanent repairs because there is always the possibility that someday a hailstorm will punch a few holes into the new roof. You say that you don't want to spend the time and energy rebuilding the roof if it could just be knocked apart again someday. But, honey, if you FIX THE ROOF, and if your fix it RIGHT so that it is strong and sturdy again, and if you use the best materials and put your heart and soul into the work, it doesn't matter what kind of weather comes your way. The roof will withstand ANY storm.<P>You need to drop the pots and pans, stop worrying about the drips, stop agonizing over storms that haven't even arrived yet, and concentrate on rebuilding the roof itself.<P>lsb, if you fix your marriage and make it strong again, then you and h will be able to tolerate anything that comes up in the future. If the marriage is strong and on solid ground, you will be able to make decisions together about what to do in the future. <P>Best wishes, lsb, I'll be praying for you.<BR>cd <p>[This message has been edited by cdcollins (edited May 25, 2001).]

CD... I don't know what brand of coffee you drink... but I am swapping over! Your roof analogy is WONDERFUL! This should be posted under "advice to all newcomers". Plus you are so great in the response to Mina. <P>You may be taking the lead here as "MB P/C Guru". Can I stencil that on a t-shirt & send to you? <P>Take care... Carolyn

Dear Carolyn,<BR>Awww shucks, it weren't nuthin, really.<P>You better be careful or you'll be giving me a big ol' swelled head <P>with love,<BR>cd

i agree CD, that is a wonderful analogy!! post it under jenny's info for newbies thread!!<P>happy_girl