Hi all,<P>I hope you don't mind my reposting this. It was at the tail end of my "slipping away" thread. I guess I was wondering if kind of provoking the grief, probing around the ages to see how big it is, how much it hurts is normal. For the first 6 weeks, I think I was just in a big denial, but I will tell you now, that losing the kids is hitting at least as hard as the A and OC. I wrote (with a couple of edits):<P>I thought I was doing so much better, but then my work setbacks came right on top of losing the adoption. I was up until 4:00 last night (and up by 7:00). I think that the stupid prednisone is doing its usual trick of keeping me awake and that adds to the depression. (On the other hand, my artiritis and tendonitis feel much better on the prednisone). <P>I never get any time alone anymore because my husband is out of work and has lost his driver's license (an old unpaid ticket from 3 years ago in Calif. has caused our new state to revoke his license and the fines have grown to over $2,000. He got the ticket the day before we moved out of California and he forgot about it. Although we, obviously, left a forwarding address, Calif. has a law against forwarding any DMV documentation.) <P>So...I have to do my grieving at night. I spent my night looking at their pictures, curled up in their beds, smelling their clothes to see if there were any that I had forgotten to wash that still might smell of them. I also found a one hour cassette tape of them that I didn't know that we had. They had a tape deck in their room last summer and they would periodically put it on while they were playing in their room. I couldn't believe the joy and the pain of hearing their voices again. (I understand enough Russian to catch bits of their conversations. At one point they were playing SuperMan and at another Greco-Roman wrestling which they love. H and I used to referee their frequently hysterically funny matches. Poor littlest guy never won, unless he used his feet to boff his brother off of him and then would land on him and pin him down. On the other side of the tape is a night we had our nephew staying over with them and we had a balloon fight until all hours; we were all camping out in their room on the floor. Getting them settled down to sleep was nearly imnpossible that night and we wound up taking our two little Russian boys and our nephew all to our big king-sized bed.<P>We still have the appeal underway and I am wondering if this unbeknowst (to us) tape might help our case. I would put our chances of success at less than 1 in 1,000.<P>Mrs. Job<BR>

Mrs. J, there is no timetable for grief, but you know the 5 "steps" right? Denial, anger, sadness, bargaining and acceptance.<P>Would the tape help your chances? It couldn't hurt, right? You could only try giving them a copy and see, I guess. I don't know enough about an appeals process for this sort of thing. I did suggest seeing if you can use a different agency to ask for the same boys, but again I don't know enough about Russia to know for sure.<P>I'm sorry for your sorrows. You've gotta boatful right now.<BR>Prayers,<BR>J

Dear Mrs. Job,<P>I have lost several children through miscarriages over the last 10 years. For each one I bought a homecoming outfit and saved in the box with the outfit any memorabilia from the pregnancy (doctor's appointment receipts, ultrasound photos, etc.) On the end of each box I placed each baby's name and the expected date of their birth.<P>For some of these losses, it has been nearly ten years and to this day I occasionally feel the urge to go and look in each box, to hold each outfit and to imagine each child.<P>Jenny is so right, there is no timetable for grief. The intense grief passes within a year or two, but some parts of it linger for a lifetime. <P>You have not lost an adoption, you have lost two children. And even if they were not legally yours, they were yours and are yours forever in your heart. You already are a mother, Mrs. Job. It's just that you are experiencing the sadness of motherhood rather than the happiness. Those boys are yours as sure as if you had given birth to them. Let your heart decide its own timetable for healing.<P>I too am sorry for the sadness you must endure over the loss of your precious boys. There will be a time in the not too distant future when you will be able to put this behind you -- you will carry those boys forever, but it will be in your heart and mind, not on your shoulders. <P>I am praying that the day comes swiftly for you to relieve you of your suffering. May God grant you peace.<P>love,<BR>heavenly

Ladies,<P> Whenever I think I have it rough, all I have to do is read a few posts here. <P> I have no complaints.<P> God bless you,<P>------------------<BR>Gregg

Heavenly, you said that SOO well. Good job! Hey, ditto what she said... <P>(Heavenly, I like your outfit idea. I have all that for my baby that died, but not for my miscarriages. Do you think it's too late?)<P>Gregg, I have a friend in marital crisis right now and I feel the same as you. Amen.

Dear Mrs Job, you sound on track as far as normal grief. I did the same "smelling" of h's clothes in the laundry the day he left 1st time.<P>You HAVE lost 2 children, your sadness is expected and part of the healing process.<P>Heavenly, your post made me cry. How touching.....to imagine having all those memories stored away with love...to even look at them from time to time....memories of your angels. You are one amazing woman.<P>love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Thank you for the support.<P>Our marriage counselor mentioned last night not letting <BR>their room become a shrine. We should pack up their things <BR>and put them somewhere safe, use the room for other purposes. Going to be hard to turn it back into a regular bedroom, now that it is a boy's super room. The theme of their room was astronomy--a favorite hobby of H's. My mom and I made stars and planet curtains, we have glow in the dark planets and stars in constellations on the walls and ceilings and I was working on denim quilts for their beds.<P>My mom and my sister have volunteered to come and pack away their stuff and the baby's stuff as well. Anna's room was all ready for her as well and I had bought all her clothes. Her room is all decorated in Peter Rabbit and again, we had made curtains and a quilt. We had a tentative travel date and we were told to get ready to travel including buying enough clothes for them for the 10 days we would be in Russia together as a family before coming home. <P>I told the counselor that I would do that, but not right now. Now I use their rooms and their clothes to provoke the grief. I am afraid that it might go down so deep and get so buried that it will come out in bad ways later on. I'd rather work hard on getting it out now. <P>Thanks again,<BR>Mrs. Job

Dear Mrs. Job,<P>No wonder it has been so difficult for you -- to walk past those rooms every day and to see the love that you invested in creating those special atmospheres must tear your heart out on a daily basis.<P>I agree with your counsellor. Don't keep hurting yourself over and over again. Store the things away and keep small mementos of each child. That is wonderful that you family is willing to pack things up for you. It would be so painful for you.<P>Jenny, I still don't think it is too late. If you are like me, those chidren are just as real to you as the one you lost at birth. For me, the clothes and mementos represent closure. Although they did not get a chance to live, those children were every bit as real to me as the ones I have. People believe that you can just "get over" miscarriage. What they don't understand is that the dreams and hopes and bonding begins from the moment you hear that you are expecting.<P>So, the boxes are a way of confirming that these were real children, they were my children and they are part of me forever.<P>I am so worried about you Mrs. Job. I guess for those who have been through this pain, there is a special sense of understanding. Come here often and share your pain so that you can work it through. If you want to e-mail me feel free to do so at rosepell@ivillage.com.<P>My prayers and best wishes are with you,<BR>love,<BR>heavenly

Mrs. J, you are doing a very wise thing to not avoid the grief--my gosh, lossing 3 at once!! But try not to lose yourself. <P>"...for all its sham drudgery and broken dreams, the world is still a beautiful place" ...hoping I quoted the Disiderata right!<P>J<BR>who does NOT believe misery is evenly distributed!!<p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited June 01, 2001).]

Mrs. Job,<P> I was reading your post and I think we have some things in commen. My 4 children are all adopted. I understand the pain and heartache of desperately wanting a child. Adopting my children was the best thing my husband and I had ever done. I would sit at the dinner table and think to myself, "We created this family... it is a work of art" To have my husband of 23 years sleep with a 20 year old bimbo (she's very mature he says!!) 2 times and get her pregnant is devastating. And if you have infertlity issues it feels like God is laughing at you. What makes it difficult in my situation is that my 15 year old discovered the affair and my children think their father prefers his biological child to them. After all, he did leave them and to adopted children who struggle with abandonment issues all of their lives this is truly damaging!! If you ever need to talk to someone about this I'm here for you. And if you ever need any adoption advice let me know.<BR> Kris