I discovered my husbands use of internet porn by accident one day. I told him at that time how I felt about it and he told me how he felt about it "it's a guy thing". I thought if he just knew how I felt about it that he would curtail doing it. But no. And I wasn't going to ask him to stop, I wanted to see him stop on his own out of respect for my feelings. Well here we are three years later and several large arguments, I finally gave him an ultimatum as I never "asked" him to make a commitment to me that he would stop and now I have. I will not tolerate it or try to live with this thorn in my side. If he breaks his commitment to me it is over. I feel very strongly about this stuff and perhaps (though probably not) if our sex life was just over the top it wouldn't bother me as much - but when you neglect your wife as I feel I am and prefer porn by yourself..to me that's a huge problem. I know I am not the only woman who feels this way but I feel so alone in my stand against it. And to me if these men would just learn how to please their women maybe these women would want to have sex more often and the men wouldn't need to turn to porn. I don't know.

Dgmiss...there's a pretty good discussion about porn going on currently on the EN board. You should check it out and share your thoughts and feelings.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=018327

Take care,
Smile

Your boundary is a common one, and one you have every right to make. However, LBing to get your end result will only get you resentment.

Have either of you talked to a marriage counselor?

i believe that porn can be a problem if it gets out of hand. if your husband is good to you and he looks at porn every once in a while, i personally don't believe it's a problem. maybe you want to ask your husband what he would think if you looked at porn every so often. what would he think he came home and saw you looking at a Playgirl magazine? a dose of his own medicine might open his eyes. i realize that porn is a big issue in many marriages but i don't believe it is something to cause major problems between a man and wife. i have a few magazines and a couple of tapes, but since my wife does not like them, i keep them to myself. i'll look at them every once in a while, but they are of little importance to me. if she finds them and throws them away...no big deal. i don't have a problem with a little bit of porn here and there. another option is to disconnect the internet. sometimes the internet can cause more problems that what it's worth.

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: dean790 ]</small>

Someone asked if we have tried marriage counseling..I am starting on my own for the time being as he thinks he knows everything and that no counselor could help him. Anyways, my situation is this and why I have my feelings...I may be the opposite of most couples..I came into the relationship with more sex drive than my husband..I like sex, no I love sex..so for the longest time it didn't happen unless I initiated it, then to entice him I would put on lingerie etc., only to be told "get dressed" b/c he wasn't interested...but wait when he discovered how well I give oral, all of sudden he wanted that all the time...eventually got to a point I never get satisfied and he preferred my mouth over anything else..here I am one of the biggest nymphos and I have little to no interest in sex now..it's tiring always being the one doing the work to get nothing out of it..and gets boring...Yes I think I am more experienced and mature about sex but he just seems to get embarassed if I even try to talk or show him or ask him for something..nonetheless...at first it was the issue of him "choosing" to do the porn thing vs. real sex with me...then it changed as I wanted it less, to "at least I don't have to do it, saves me the damn trouble"...now I don't care, the buck stops here, I am tired of being neglected, I am tired of us being a married couple that has sex separately (masterbation), I am tired of feeling no desire from him. How can a man concentrate, learn and know how to please his W if all he does is concentrate on pleasing himself when she is not around? So yes maybe it is a competition for his attention thing??? As for the perfection thing with porn, I am not intimidated by the "unrealism" of these women, I am more attractive than most women and it's just a shame that men other than my H tell me how beautiful I am on a daily basis...strangers...the honks, the whistles, the winks...I get it all..so my issue is not a security thing! Not to mention, these men including my H are not perfect themselves and quite frankly these beautiful women who pose for porn would probably be disgusted if they even took a moment to think of all the "trolls" out there ogling at them. Women in general feel the need or feel the push rather to be somewhat perfect for their H but it sure doesn't go the other way does it..these men think they are all that and most women would not look twice at them..so wives don't worry about someone stealing your man..just look at them on occasion and see the real "dork" in them other women see to shoot down their irrepressable self image ego's...it will do you a lot of good!

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Nokomis ]</small>

I think pornography can be dangerous to a marriage for exactly the reasons you are saying. It seems to cause divided sexual interests for many, even if it is part of a marriage that has no sexual issues. I think you have every right to not just want but to demand that this material not be brought into your home.

However, I'm unclear about one thing: On the one hand you say that you wanted him to change his behavior out of respect for your feelings, but then you say if he did more to please you that he might get sex more often. We have a vicious circle here -- it has to be broken by the both of you, not just one -- and one-sided ultimatums at this point could be damaging in my opinion. Let me explain:

I think you probably should have told him from the start what you wanted rather than hoping he'd get the message on his own. I think for some it is an addiction and should be treated accordingly. I would think that in order to remedy this situation he would need to abstain from pornography altogether and get these urges and needs met from each other, but in order for that to happen sex would have to be an aspect of the marriage where anger and resentment and manipulation are completely resolved beforehand. I personally would go to counseling to get ideas on setting goals, removing barriers and getting to the point where a man and woman can please each other sexually so that he won't have the urge to do anything that might cause the loss of a healthy and rewarding sex life.

I just don't think ultimatums at this point are the solution as they just foster more resentment. You don't want him to change because he was made to -- he had to agree to change because the reward of doing so is much greater.

Mars,
Pretty much my H has ruined our sex life. I have tried to no avail, even having sex and doing the things he likes me to do when I really am not interested b/c I never get satisfied. What I am trying to say is that if he would FOCUS on me and what I need from him or help from him...I like being on the receiving end of oral too, in otherwords....rather than him turning to PORN when he is horny..that yes, as you put it..we would not be "sexually divided". Sometime I think it just pure laziness, too. At this point I did give him the ultimatum as I believe I should be and our sex life together should be much more important than pornography. Should he not feel quite the same, and cannot refrain from the porn (which I think is a big problem between us) then maybe I don't need him afterall. Fortunately for me I am not monetarily dependent on my H and the only reason he is around or will remain is if I "want" him around. It is very liberating when you have a choice to be with someone and when you aren't staying with them because you "have" to. But unfortunately my H hasn't realized that he needs to start doing things that will make me "want" to keep him around. I will not budge on the porn issue - I don't want it in my house - and I don't have to accept it in any way, shape or form.

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Nokomis ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i believe that porn can be a problem if it gets out of hand. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By who's determination does it have to be out of hand? Who gets to make this subjective judgement call?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> maybe you want to ask your husband what he would think if you looked at porn every so often. what would he think he came home and saw you looking at a Playgirl magazine?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tit for tat does nothing but foster resentment, up the ante on hurt, justify the offending spouse's actions, and get you in the middle of a peeing contest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i realize that porn is a big issue in many marriages but i don't believe it is something to cause major problems between a man and wife.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which man and wife are you talking about? Because it does cause problems with many people. I have yet to see more than a handful of women out here who have no problem with it at all. If the wife has a problem with it; then, it is a problem in the marriage, as the wife is 1/2 of that marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i have a few magazines and a couple of tapes, but since my wife does not like them, i keep them to myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, you are outside of the POJA with this issue, and being dishonest with your W. I feel dishonesty IS a big problem in marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i'll look at them every once in a while, but they are of little importance to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If they are of no importance and no big deal; then, why do you have them? Your W does not like them. By having them you are giving the possession of these things a higher priority than your W's feelings. I don't think that is no big deal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i don't have a problem with a little bit of porn here and there. another option is to disconnect the internet. sometimes the internet can cause more problems that what it's worth. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The interesting thing about marriages is that they contain two people. In order for it to be ok, both spouses have to ENTHUSIASTICALLY agree to the use of porn - no matter which spouse is using it. What is a problem for either spouse is a problem for the marriage, as they are both a part of it.

djmiss,

I think you need to get yourself to a marriage counselor, and you need to buy the book "Love Busters" and read it cover to cover. Focus particularly on the chapter about how sex should be a mutual thing - and why.

The following is a section taken from Chapter 13 'Resolving Conflicts over Sex' of the book "Love Busters" by Dr. Harley. This section is titled "Sex Should Always Be Shared". As always, any typos are my own.

Sex Should Always Be Shared

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whenever a client tells me her husband is impotent, I'm a little suspicious. While I've treated many men who were truly impotent, more often than not the problem turns out not to be impotence at all, but rather excessive masturbation.

I once counseled a man who brought himself to ten climaxes each day. By the time his wife wanted to make love, he was sexually exhausted! When he stopped masturbating, he had absolutely no problem at all making love to her.

But that wasn't Jerry's problem. He could do both. If Jane, his wife, ever wanted to make love, he was ready and able. He initiated lovemaking on a regular basis himself. But every once in a while she would discover evidence that he'd been masturbating. It offended her deeply - so much so that she made an appointment for marriage counseling.

When Jerry discussed the problem with me, he couldn't understand why she was upset. "Why should she care if I masturbate? We make love whenever she wants, don't we? And I'm an excellent lover besides. What is her problem?"

Jane had explained to him that she wanted all of his sexual feelings to be shared with her. She felt that his masturbation was like a mistress, and she didn't want to share his sexual feelings with anyone else - even a fantasy.

I explained to Jerry that whenever he masturbated, he was doing something that he enjoyed but that Jane hated. Her alternative wasn't unreasonable either: She wsa willing to make love to him anytime he wanted.

Then came the real dilemma. Jerry confessed that he enjoyed masturbation more than he enjoyed sex with his wife. He wasn't sure if he could stop doing it.

Masturbation had become such a pleasurable experience for him that sex with his wife was sometimes boring in contrast. He made love to her out of duty and did a good job of it, but he looked forward to masturbating more than anything else. He felt that since no other woman was involved, it was okay for him to develop a sexual habit that brought him so much pleasure.

But he actually had another lover: himself! Jane had good reason to feel jealous. Some of the effects of an affair were developing in his marriage: He was robbing his wife of some of the very best feelings he could have toward her, sexual feelings. All those love unites that could have been deposited in her account were squandered.

Besides, many married men I've counseled with sexual perversions - such as making obscene telephone calls and exposing oneself in public - were addicted to masturbation. Their embarrassing and illegal perversions could have been avoided if they had limited their sexual experiences to those they could enjoy with their wife. In fact, some of the most remarkable cures I've witnessed for deviant sexual conduct was with men who made their wife a permanent fixture in the sex room of their imaginary house. I recommended to Jerry that if at all possible, sexual feelings be reserved for marital lovemaking. He should avoid sexual fantasies if they didn't involve his wife, he should avoid sexual arousal if his wife were not present, and he should never experience a climax unless it was while making love to his wife.

In this case my recommendations were followed, and Jerry was able to overcome his habit of masturbating. He knew this Love Buster offended Jane, but he had done it anyway because he enjoyed it so much. In other words, he gained pleasure at her expense. When he decided to protect her feelings, he stopped masturbating. It also may have prevented him from developing an embarrassing sexual perversion. But most important, it helped build romantic love for both of them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Takola,
Thank you. I have been looking for the book "Love Busters" and I have scheduled myself for counseling - me first to deal with my issues and then when the time comes hopefully my H will join me in the counseling. I feel much like the person you quoted from the book. All I want is the closeness that is really missing from our lack of connecting romantically, physically, sexually in the bedroom. There is no reason for me to feel this way as I would have sex with my H anytime he wants but I feel like he doesn't come to me to fulfill his needs, he leaves me out of the picture and it is devastating to my self esteem b/c I feel like he doesn't desire or want me when other men seem to always show interest. Sometimes I think if these other men knew how neglected I felt they would probably say something like "if she were mine I wouldn't be neglecting her" or "what a fool her H is to neglect such a beautiful woman". I guess that's my own self pity talking but it is the way I feel. I am very anxious to get the book and my H has actually agreed to try to read "his needs, her needs" for me, so maybe he will be open to read "love busters" too. Thanks again.

Scripture tells us to keep the marriage bed undefiled, and frankly pornography defiles the marriage bed by bringing unknown others into it.

The porn is an issue if he refuses to limit it or give it up. He is being beligerent because I suspect that he has a major addiction to it. Also, he may feel intimidated by your personal "experience" or he may have had some negative sexual experiences as a child or even have been molested.

It's extremely difficult for a man to admit molestation because of the sexual confusion it causes as most molesters are men therefore creating a question of one's sexual preference.

Any man who prefers "imaginary sex" to the real thing definately has issues. I would encourage you to begin to seek out the reasons that men prefer "vertual sex" to reality sex. I'm sure there are tons of studies out there and you may just stumble across the reason your husband is so reticent.

Seeking to answer the question rather than demand the result may go a long way in changing your situation.

Praying for you.

dgmiss,

I know EXACTLY what you are going through because my H and I are going through it, as well. I have confronted him about it for several different reasons. First of all, it is taking away from our sex life. After he looks at porn on the computer, I can forget getting any attention from him. Another thing that ticks me off about it is that he will call me over to the computer and say: "That is how big I would like to see your boobs!" (I am not very endowed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) That is insulting. Or he will say: "I wish you could do that!" That is also insulting! I sometimes think that because I don't look like that, or because I can't do that, he is not as interested. He tells me that looking at it does nothing for him...that he does not get an erection from it or sexually aroused by it. My question to him is: "Then why do you look at it?!?!" No answer, of course.

Another thing that bothers me about it, is that he will look at it when our children are around. My kids are 4, 2, and 1. Do you really think that is something I want them seeing?!! He tells me it is no big deal and that he always minimizes it before they get close enough to see it. But if his back to them, how does he know that?!

He thinks that I am being over-dramatic and that I need not worry about it. That it means nothing to him. And yet--he wonders why I say I cannot trust him any further than I can throw him!! That is because it may be starting out as "innocently" looking at porn now, but what will it eventually lead to? If he is looking at these women because they have physical qualities that I do not, then who is to say that he will not eventually go out and find one that does? He tells me that if I would let him pay for a boob job and this and that, then I wouldn't have anything to worry about and he could stop looking at porn. GO FIGURE!!!!!!!! I don't honestly think it will ever stop!

Hi, I'm new to this board, but this is a hot topic for me, so I'm going to jump right in.

First of all, I want to confirm to you all that I am a woman and I am not a lesbian.

Now, the first question I would have to ask is...what do you consider 'porn'. What exactly is your husband looking at? If he's looking at the violent 'rape', torture, or animal sex porn (which are the only things that I really consider to be porn), then I'd say you have every right to be upset.

BUT....if it's just pictures of naked women (like Playboy), that's nothing to be upset about in my opinion. Are you going to let some pictures of naked women threaten you and your marriage? I bought my husband a year subscription to Playboy online and a few other nude site that he wanted. This is the way I look at it. If he's looking at naked women at home on his computer, I know he's not out in bars or in strip clubs where the danger of infidelity runs high! So what if he's looking at nude pictures of beautiful women! He's there at home with you! I even look at the pictures with my husband sometimes. I'm thinking about getting breast augmentation one day soon and we look at the models to get an idea of what I want my breasts to look like.

Like I said, if it's animal sex or rape or torture, I'd understand, but nudes are harmless. Let's be honest here. If you've seen a Playboy model in a magazine, they have beautiful bodies. As a married woman, I can say that just fine and I am not threatened by it one bit. Until someone comes up with some way for a man to stick his 'thing' into a monitor and get pleasure from it, then it's a non-issue to me. To me, the Playboy type nude photos are no different from the Rennaissance nude portraits done centuries ago and are considered priceless works of art today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he's looking at naked women at home on his computer, I know he's not out in bars or in strip clubs where the danger of infidelity runs high! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The danger of infidelity runs just as high (if not higher) on your computer as it does in a strip club or bar. There is no one else watching to 'keep someone honest'. You can go anywhere and do anything and you don't even have to answer annoying questions.

While your opinion certainly needs respected in your marriage, it is not the duty of everyone to agree with either your position on pornography or your definition of the word.

To csm..I empathize with you!!! All I can tell you is what I decided for myself and that being if my partner, my mate cannot take my feelings into consideration...then he can keep doing what he wants as far as the porn goes, but he won't have me. I am putting myself first, no matter what! I have held my feelings at bay for almost 4 years and had given him every opportunity to cease and desist which he did not. The last time I discovered the porn, I told him I wanted a divorce...I am not taking it anymore...I am standing up for myself and what I believe in...of course he doesn't want a divorce and has made a committment to me (one that I had never asked for before) that it will no longer happen. That will be left to be seen. In the meantime, I started counseling nonetheless b/c once you put divorce in your head, it's hard to come back from.

Just remember no one deserves to be disrespected and it sounds like your husband, the one you are suppose to be most important to, is disrespecting you on a constant basis. It is up to you if you will accept that or not. Good luck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by longship:
<strong> Now, the first question I would have to ask is...what do you consider 'porn'. What exactly is your husband looking at? If he's looking at the violent 'rape', torture, or animal sex porn (which are the only things that I really consider to be porn), then I'd say you have every right to be upset.

BUT....if it's just pictures of naked women (like Playboy), that's nothing to be upset about in my opinion. Are you going to let some pictures of naked women threaten you and your marriage? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What about teenage porn?? Are you OK with men two or three times older than a 17 year old, perusing this type of porn?

A persons opinion is typically based on personal experience. I must say that it would be nice to be in a place that you are where all is good. You are very fortunate that porn doesn't affect your personal sex life, that is assuming that your H takes care of all your needs and satisfies you. But most women who have a problem with porn, I think is b/c of their personal experiences of the H's not satisfying them and turning to porn to satisfy themselves and/or disrespect and demean their wives all of which are not happy, satisfying situations. Personally if my H is not satisfying me in the bedroom - he is threatening our marriage to start with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dgmiss:
<strong>What about teenage porn?? Are you OK with men two or three times older than a 17 year old, perusing this type of porn? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, of course I don't condone minors in porn since it is illegal. But I see nothing wrong with a 40 year old man looking at an 18-22 year old, consenting adult nude model.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are very fortunate that porn doesn't affect your personal sex life, that is assuming that your H takes care of all your needs and satisfies you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I am very fortunate in this area. My H and I have very similar sexual drives and are very satisfied with each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But most women who have a problem with porn, I think is b/c of their personal experiences of the H's not satisfying them and turning to porn to satisfy themselves and/or disrespect and demean their wives all of which are not happy, satisfying situations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am lucky here, too, because my H does not masterbate, not even when he looks at nude models. If he needs satisfying, he comes to me. I'm not sure how I would feel if he were in the bathroom or on the computer masterbating to pictures of nude women.

As far as using porn to disrespect and demean their wives, I think there is a lot more to the issue than the porn. There is probably (in many cases) another underlying problem in the relationship (not just a 'problem' with the husband), of which a man turning to porn to satisfy himself or to disrespect his wife is just a symptom.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by longship:
I am lucky here, too, because my H does not masterbate, not even when he looks at nude models. If he needs satisfying, he comes to me. I'm not sure how I would feel if he were in the bathroom or on the computer masterbating to pictures of nude women. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If your H doesn't masterbate and comes to you for satisfaction - good for you, but.....then why the need for porn?!? Don't think that these men do this while their wives are at home, most prefer their privacy and do it while the W is gone. Any man who in privacy looks at porn will and does masterbate to your disbelief or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as using porn to disrespect and demean their wives, I think there is a lot more to the issue than the porn. There is probably (in many cases) another underlying problem in the relationship (not just a 'problem' with the husband), of which a man turning to porn to satisfy himself or to disrespect his wife is just a symptom. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough, it is a symptom of something else. But to suggest that a man turns to porn b/c he is not being satisfied by his W is a scape goat....just like trying to blame a woman that has been raped b/c she dressed like a slut and deserved it. Men begin using porn early in age, shown to them by their fathers and taught that it is acceptable (rather than raping a woman, I suppose). It is a problem in our society how a lot of men view and see women as sex objects. Most women don't look at male porn...there aren't very many magazines showing nude men...I tried out of curiousity to see what my H would do if I looked at Playgirl and you know what? I couldn't find a store that carried it! But I did find magazines for gay men...that says something to me. Men are perverts, women are not. And don't think I am prude. I am a huge nympho and always have been - compared to some women I may have been considered a slut while I was single - of course the men are not sluts, right. In our society it is acceptable for the men to view porn, to go to titty bars (even for business lunches,etc), to pay hookers, but for women not....and then when these same men rape a woman, the woman is blamed! We are a messed up society.

Nonetheless back to the point which is - if these men would concentrate on pleasing their wives and/or learn how to please their wives half as much as they concentrate on masterbating to porn then everyone should be happy - both H and W. Unfortunately I think most men are selfish and lazy therefore it is much easier for them to masterbate to porn than to work at making their wives have an orgasm before the get off. NOTE: A lot of women don't have an orgasm every time they have sex...but the men do...why is that? I can think of two words - TIME and SELFISHNESS. What do you think would happen if a man did not cum every time he had sex...I think he would stop having sex with that partner. Women need to think about that and it is most likely the reason a lot of wives aren't interested in sex due to the lack of their own sexual fulfillment or rather, no orgasm.

i don't know if they are just selfish and lazy as much as they are intimidated and insecure......and very inept at dealing w/ those feelings.

some men are plain selfish and lazy......and would rather j/o to porn than bother w/ real sex.
but, i really think most of them are cluless and are hiding behind..... "all Men do it", "there is nothing wrong w/ me" attitude because they DO really feel there is something wrong w/ them and porn and the message they get from it makes them feel good.......for a couple of minutes.

<small>[ December 30, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>