The web address is<BR> <A HREF="http://monroe.lib.mi.us/cwis/foc99.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://monroe.lib.mi.us/cwis/foc99.htm</A> <P>I believe that someone had asked for the sit I got my information, this is Monroe Counties web site for the friend of the court. It states where a child is born out of wedlock a paternity action may be started by the mother, alleaged father or FIA agency. This does not apply to me as she was not born out of wedlock. You can find this information under Paternity Actions. According to this and was affirmed by a couple of lawyers, by law I am married to Hannah's father, my H. Since she was concieved within the marriage, as long as I or H does not dispute paternity, he IS her father. There is not reason to adopt her or have OM sign off right, by doing so, we WOULD have to acknowledge paternity with someone other than my H and that would just open up a whole can of worms. Since my H and I do not contest paternity, my H is legally responsible for her.<P>------------------<BR>RY<BR>"This child was not created out of love, but was born into love, that is all that matters."

RY,<P>This was the case with my birth as well. My mother and my dad were still married (although separated at the time) when she conceived me w/ someone else. At that time in our state, and in almost every state in the union, my Dad was my legal father and my bio-father had no rights and could not have persued them. The law stems from a 400- or 500- year old British law that prevented children from being "bastardized" and disinherited. The only time a man could protest paternity was if he had had "no access" to the woman for one full year. That was generally considered to me that one or the other of them was out of the country for that whole time.<P>So, for my dad, there was no need to adopt me. I was legally his.<P>Mrs. Job

Mrs. Job, That's exactly what the lawyers told me. That is stems from a old law some 400 years old. I don't know why I have to keep saying this to everyone. as I have said for a thousand times, OM HAS NO RIGHTS. Even though there was a DNA test done, it was not court approved so it wouldn't be allowed into the system. OM never saw the results, just word of mouth. Even IF he tried to contest paternity, the courts would laugh at him. It could be viewed as he is trying to brake up my M.<P>------------------<BR>RY<BR>"This child was not created out of love, but was born into love, that is all that matters."

Well RY, I'll tell you why I aksed and it IS because of the DNA test done already. Even though the test wasn't court approved does NOT mean he can't say a test was done and proved he was the father. THAT is why I asked about what an attorney said to you. Presumed Paternity is a very old law, once recognized in every state. It was presumed that 1) wives didn't get pregnant by men other than their husband's and 2) it was to keep children from being without fathers as Mrs. Job. However, there are only a few states which have the laws still on its books and those that do are rethinkign the law. So, I suppose I question your statements because 1)there already has been a DNA test 2) the laws will probably change 3) since your H knows about the DNA test and the OM knows about the DNA test, you left yourself wide open to a problem. <P>If the OM does decide to take it to court, I doubt they'll laugh at him nor give a crap about your marriage, RY. The courts don't care about affairs, your marital problems etc. WHat they care about is the rights of parents and whether you like it or not, he is the father. <P>So, again, that's why I questioned your reasoning. You left a door open. What you do with that, well that's your problem.<BR>

COR I hope you are right. ow took paternity Thurs. as my H did earlier that day. We are waiting for results.<P>As of yesterday she told me she wanted us to move on as she is the mom and no longer wants us to ever see baby again.<P>Good to know she can't make us just vanish from the baby's life.<P>Thanks.<P>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

CoR, Yes a test was done, but it does not leave any door wide open. My H and I along with OM has made it very clear that there would be no contact with our D. So why say now that OM is the father, HE IS NOT. He may have had a part in creating her, but nothing more. When I first started posting, I said he was her father, then realized biology means nothing, it does not guarentee love, security or a stable life. Which she has right now. I got blasted by different poeple for saying that he was her father, but now I know better, YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT HE IS THE FATHER. I think not dear soul, like Mrs. Job, she has a father, which yes is her step-father, but a father no less. I would even wager that she would not have traded her father for another father in the world. It is not my problem these OM have the ablility to walk away from the number of children they create outside of their M's. I use to agrue that it was wrong and arrogent to assume it was the OW responsiblity to take care of these child alone and without the help and acknowlegdement of their bio-counterparts, to say the are fathers would give them a title they do NOT deserve. I believe it would be in the best interest of these child to go on in their lifes without their bio-counterparts and hopefully have mother's who DO have their best interest in mind and find a good, caring man who is willing to raise and love these children as their own as well and more importanly their mothers.There are too many OM who are too selfish and suffer from their own mental problems to look beyond their needs for that of child. Even if it is a child they created. So no, I hope the laws do not change. If they were adult about the whole situation, then the ADULTS in the situation could come up with a reasonable plan for the best interest of the child w/o the courts. I know in my case, my D is TOO much of an embarressment too OM to have him do something stupid like contest paternity, if he had the option. Which he doesn't right now so, too bad. I am proud of the BS in these situations who do have the IC best interest in heart, that they realize that they are not trying to replace a mother, but offer a family to the IC if that child needs it to turn too. That is very admirable that these women can look at that child a realize yes, this is my H child and I will love it the same as mine. That's Great!! Beside, it doesn't matter what you or anyone else believes, I believe what I do and it's the law, for now. Mrs. Job is no different than my D, or do you think she is??<P>------------------<BR>RY<BR>"This child was not created out of love, but was born into love, that is all that matters."

Why you are so hostile is beyond me, but I'll leave it that alone. <P>There is a distinct difference between being a FATHER and being a DAD. One creates you and one raises you. Sometimes, children are lucky and they get ONE person who is both. Sometimes they are lucky and have a father, but also have a DAD who loves them as their own. Sometimes children aren't so lucky and have just a father. <P>Should the laws change? Absolutely. I hope they abolish presumed paternity in every state in the U.S. Why? Because there are WAY too many ex-husbands who are paying child support for children that 1) aren't biologically theirs 2) They don't know or found out later the child wasn't biologically theirs. Some ex-husbands, RY, are paying child support for children, after their wives left them for other men, while pregnant with the other man's child. How is that fair, RY? To have to pay for another man's child, a man who is the father and now acting as Dad with your wife? You think this is a GOOD law? I certainly don't. <P>And you are proud of the betrayed spouses who do what YOU want to do, not what's in the best interest of the child. You said yourself that you basically do not like meddling wives who want visitation after a child support order is filed. So you expect them to sit around, paying out the wazoo, and just leave everything alone, shut up about the whole thing and have no say. Well, it doesn't work that way all the time. Some wives, including me, want to be a part of that child's life. But you know, RY, we can't because OUR other women say we can't, just like you are saying. We're not good enough to be a step-mother. Our husband's are now not good enough to be Dads. How things change, don't they? <P>So who really has the best interest of the child in mind? <P>That's all I have to say, RY. You are entitled to believe whatever the heck it is you want to believe. It makes no difference to me. However, as I said in my previous post, you left doors open for both the other man and your husband. I honestly hope you never have to revisit them. <P>Take good care,<BR>CoR<P>

CoR-<P>Hi, as you can tell I don't really post here often and in fact this is the first time that I have done so under my own user name or password. That said, I really wanted to make sure that everyone got back to "building a Marriage" or at least "building a helpful enviornment".<P>I think that you really misunderstand my wife and her demenor. She is quite a facious person and most of what she may say is not hostile but a defense mechanisim. I don't know your situation but I must tell you as the BS I am very proud to be raising OUR daughter. Yes I know that she is not biologically mine, however, I was there for the pregnacy, birth and will be there for the rest of her life. She is MY daughter. I am listed on the BC and under the law I am viewed as the father/daddy and I am very happy and excited about that. Understand, I hate the manner in which she came into my life, however; I love my wife, children and want our marriage and therefore feel that the law (as it protects me) is a good law. I can understand your dislike of the law ("I wonder if ye dest protest too loudly and come accross as, well, hostile"). But, you seem to be ingnoring a major factor in your protection of men (those many who are paying CS unfairly) and that is under the structure of the current law THEY (those many who are paying CS unfairly) could challenge paternity as they are legally listed as the father. (Should they choose not to that is up to them. Truth be told, if my wife and I ever were to separate and divorce I would willingly pay CS for OUR daughter simply for the pleasure of seeing her grow-up). I understand that my situation is not a "one-size fit's all" but, for us it is a good law as it allow's the covent of our marriage and the joy of having this child. Understand, if the OM had expressed a genuine interest in seeing her (or in being involved by any means) I would have to rethink my feelings but, thankfully, he has not done that - so of course I think this is a good law - it benifits me and protects the love I feel for this child. Otherwise I would have no rights. <P>As for the point that (I know I have tried to make in the past - albet, under my wife's user ID - and before anyone get's there panties in a bunch, I informed everyone I was the one offering an opinion and not my wife) it is somewhat unseemingly for people to want visitation only after they are ask to pay CS I am confused at why this is a tough issue for so many. Look, if the Bio-Mommy or Daddy did not want to be involved with the child before they were ask to reach into there pockets then why do it afterwords? This is a living breathing human being not a commodity that you are buying "time share" in. What message is it that folks are sending if all they want is "time" after they are ask to open up the wallets? The message seem's clear - I have to pay so I am gonna get my money's worth. (Please don't think I am being hostile or obtuse; I am simply expressing the feeling's that I have). Ethically, the Spouse's that placed ALL of us in this position are well, challenged, to say the least. But, we (as the BS) ought to have them at least make a well thought out decision on what is best for both families and the child and not make a decision on the whim (like the one they made that lead to the child in the first place) of wanting to be involved with a child "if and when they must pay for him/her". (Sound's a bit selfish to only want contact simply because you feel you are paying for it).<P>Further, I can tell you that my wife and I have the best interest of OUR daughter in mind. That is why we are in couples thearpy, she is going to therapy alone (as am I), we have met with our pastor and have spoken to several lawyers on this issue. This board, I believe, is to vent, bounce ideas off of each other, gain insight to the road ahead and to hopefully be just another (in the long line) tool to "rebuild a marriage". I am not sure how it is of assistance to say (demeningly: "You are entitled to believe whatever the heck it is you want to believe") others are being hostile when your own anger is either clear or you simply find it funny to rant with some type of wonderful moral authority (which none of us on this board really have - for if we did I doubt that we would be here).<P>Finally, as for leaving the doors wide open. My wife and I are offering our knowledge from our state based upon our laws and are doing so only after cousulting with several AAL's about this issue. There is no door left open. I shut that door when I made the decision that I would gladly and gleefully pay for the privilage of being in our daughter's life should our marriage not work out. The OM can rant, rave, protest, march, go on a hunger strike and even barricade himself in a compound (ala David Koresh) and he has no legal rights at all. Yet, please keep in mind, this is in line with what he wants also. <P>Anyhow, I hope everyone understand what I have written and does not think that I am trying to be arrogant or mean. I am not. I am trying to offer the fact that we can not only have different opinions but that our opinions are shaped by OUR own personal circumstances and therefore should not be subjected to demeaning or insolent remarks or tone. <P>Now some of you may know why I don't post at this board - Really helpful to have to defend your feelings! (Good movie about this type of stuff - "Defending Your Life" - too bad it isn't this funny).<P>Have a good day. Thx for listening.

RY'S H,<P>I am glad to see you post. I don't know if you remember me, but I am in a very similar situation as your W. I can simpathize with many of her feelings, but can also see where a lot of the other women on this board are coming from. I have been on this board for almost a year now, and have formed some strong bonds with the very women whom I have, in a way, betrayed. What I mean by that is not in reality, but the situation that I have put myself and whole family. Yes, this is a board in which to come vent, rant, rave, bych... and sometimes toes get stepped on in the process. I think that where CoR is coming from is that she wants to be sure that you guys don't get a sudden surprise from OM. Just in case he finds some sort of loop-hole in the law, if he decides later that he wants to be a part of Hannah's life. We all commend you and RY for wanting to weather the storm, and rebuild your marriage!<BR> <BR>Another angle is the fact that your W does tend to be antagonistic in her comments about OM's W. The women on this board often have very strong feelings on what they and their children are being put through due to the OW and CS. They are reminded of the betrayal everytime they write out a CS check, or have to go to yet another court hearing regarding the most innocent in these situations. Yes, we have the everyday reminder in our D's what happened and the results, but it is much easier to love this child, who, like your W's signature states was not created of love, but born into it, than it is for these women who now look on a child who looks so much like their own children, yet they did not give birth too. When someone, regardless of how it was meant, states that the W of the OM is crazy, they tend to take it personal. I have to admit, that sometimes I can't respond to someones post where they are so down on the OW. It tends to hit me where it hurts. But, I have to remember at those times, the pain these women are being put through.<P>On another note, similar to the one above, the thread from My Cross about the OC not being her H's. You need to understand that this OW has taken money from them, under the guise that MC's H was the father of her child! If it seems like they are bashing the OW, I think she deserves it! There are ways to deal with situations such as these OW find themselves in. Take Obratti1 for example. She has not been condesending to her OM's W. In fact, she tries to think of her feelings and the feelings of the child before the OM, or her own.(meaning the W's feelings first) Please don't get down on MC and her celebrating. Yes, some of the responses about the OW are harsh, but I, for one, agree with how these women feel about that type of woman.<P>Maybe what we need to do is all take a deep breath, and start over. I have read most, if not all, of RY's posts, as we are in the same situation. I have read where she explains that her OM referred to his W as "crazy", with her apology. I believe her, my OM didn't claim his W was crazy, but had other awful things to say about her. Now, my eyes have been opened, and I realize what a fool I was to listen to the jerk about anything. Let's start over, and watch out for eachother's toes. Let's think before we post something that we feel so strongly about. There are ways to post about things and not offend. I have waited days to do such things, because I feel honored to be welcomed here. This board is the most helpful to those in this situation, regardless which side you are on. Let's keep it that way, and continue to help.<P>Please, keep posting. My H does post occasionaly, and may be able to help in some way. He was with me throught the whole pregnancy, knowing the whole time that Abbi was not his, biologically. You didn't know till after she was almost 5 mos old. You have been through a lot in a short time. There are also others who have posted before who didn't know until years later. Everyone has a different angle on this situation. Let's pull together and help eachother.<P>OMG!!!! Boy did I ramble. I really hope that you read what I was trying to get at here. I really hate to see the anger towards other members of the forum, and that includes everyone. I love to hear the good news, as with MC, and the fact that you and your W are continuing to grow together! Let's all be friends <P>Tigger

First, Tigger, thank you for posting an explanation. It is, as you said, an open door, one which I feel should either be closed or prepared for. So, thank you. <P><BR>Ry's Husband, <P>Perhaps if I better explain my story, you will understand where I'm coming from and not think I am being moral righteous or "protesting too much". First and foremost, I am not only a father's rights advocate, but a child's advocate as well. I take rights of ALL people seriously, even more so for the children caught in adult games. I believe we owe it to children to provide the best environment we humanly can. If that means we have to eat crow, then so we shall. <P>Secondly, perhaps you're right that I "protest" too much, but honesly, you should be more thankful. Without people like me "protesting too much", should you divorce, you too will get caught in the game of not being able to see your children, paying thousands in support and not being able to talk to them over the phone. So, instead of making light of my views, be thankful there is protest for without protest, there is no change and without change, our children lose a great deal. <P>You claim you like the law of presumed paternity. However, it's only likeable when it suits your own needs. But, RY's husband, what if it didn't? Pretend you wife actually left, before she delivered your daughter, before you had the chance to bond with her and love her as you do. What if this changed fact harmed you, financialy ruined you and devastated any possible future marriage and/or children with a new spouse. I'm sure you wouldn't like it so much. This happens a lot, more than one can imagine. <P>My story is rather simple. After dealing with this issue for almost four years, I've realized, unfortunately, my situation is neither unique nor unusual in society. My story is my husband impregnated another woman. This other woman doesn't want my husband involved for she thinks he too isn't GOOD enough, man enough or whatever enough to take part in THEIR child's life. She also hates me with a passion because I ruined her plan and doesn't want me involved in my step-child's life. I am neither a crazy woman, a heathen or a bitter wife. I hold no anger anymore about what happened. It is over and done with and there is no place for what happened in my life. Except one thing, RY's husband, the child. THIS child, like our own children, deserves to be loved by both parents. But, there's a catch. We cannot see this child, be a part of this child's life. We can only pay up because SHE says so. And who is she? A drug user with a horrible lifestyle, one which would neither enrich a child's life or enhance it. <P>So while you may have the best interest of your daughter in mind, so do I. I would love nothing than my husband and I to be a part of this child's life, but without an empty check, we cannot. If we fill out that check, our children's lives will suffer greatly. They have suffered enough already and will not allow any more suffering. I won't get into details about what they have already gone through, but will tell you they will suffer the consequences for their father's indiscretion for the rest of their lives. <P>Furthermore, I don't know what person(s) you're referring to when saying they didn't seek visitation until support ordered. Maybe I missed a story somewhere. Although I wish I had to time to read more, I can't so I do miss a lot of things posted. However, if you truly have the best interest of the child in mind, what harm would visitation with an equal bio-parent do to the child? As they say, it takes a village and villages can and do consist of many people. I see no harm in filing for visitation. After all, many would file for support if another filed for visitation too. If all people have the best interest of the child in mind regardless of their approach or the order in which it is done, what different does it really make? Seems it would only help, not hinder the life of a child. <P>So, here you have it RY's husband. I am JUST like your wife's OM's wife, a stable and loving mother already wanting to be a part of her husband's child's life and I cannot. SO you tell me, RY's husband, is it fair? No way in h3ll is it fair and until it is fair, I'll keep protesting and getting my panties in a bunch. <P>[This message has been edited by Couple_of_Reasons (edited June 04, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Couple_of_Reasons (edited June 04, 2001).]

couple of reasons, I have read your posts often, but do not know your story.?Can you fill in some gaps? you found out about the affair 4 years ago? Child is now how old? How old are your kids, and how did they or have they suffered when or if they found out do you pay child support? Please, would love to know the answers as I sort out my personal situation as well.

whatif?[QUOTE]Originally posted by Couple_of_Reasons:<BR>[<P><BR> My story is my husband impregnated another woman. This other woman doesn't want my husband involved for she thinks he too isn't GOOD enough, man enough or whatever enough to take part in THEIR child's life. She also hates me with a passion because I ruined her plan and doesn't want me involved in my step-child's life. I am neither a crazy woman, a heathen or a bitter wife. I hold no anger anymore about what happened. It is over and done with and there is no place for what happened in my life. Except one thing, RY's husband, the child. THIS child, like our own children, deserves to be loved by both parents. But, there's a catch. We cannot see this child, be a part of this child's life. We can only pay up because SHE says so. And who is she? <P> Has paternity been established? if so she has no right to say you can not have visiatation, take her court if you want in the child's life. courts can work for us too, we are going after partia;;y physical custody and joint legal custody.

isb, <P>I would be glad to tell you my story if you think it would help. However, I'm leery of posting all the details on the board and would be happy to email it to you. My email is couple_of_reasons@yahoo.com. If you do decide to email, just post a note here so I know it's from you. <P>Whatif?,<P>Yes, we have thought about taking it to court and getting visitation. Visitation would be possible. However, since we live in a different state, we have to hire a new attorney in that state at the tune of a $5000.00 retainer. Also, we would have to travel to her state to see the OC for the weekend or whatever and would incur much expense in travel costs, hotel costs, etc. Realistically, it's just too much for us... right now. We are already in deep enough because of the affair and to add more financial burden would definetly hamper any healing. Also, my children are young, under the age of 9 and the travel, let alone having to tell them what happened, and the financial change in their lives, would definetly hurt them more than help them right now. And I have to think about them too. <P>Take care,<BR>CoR <BR>